Buffalo Bills: 2020-2021

[tom webster]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

For the record, Ed was pulled over for being an idiot. The smell and car search seems fishy. I would bet a good lawyer could get that search tossed in court and the gun infraction with it. 

For the record, I agree with this. Obviously none of us know for sure but I can tell you, as someone who has spent a considerable amount of time in Cheektowaga and Grand Island, it must suck to be a black man sometimes. I can vividly recount several instances where a rowdy group of white kids were walking down one side of the street and a random black kid walking down the other side and guess who the Cheektowaga Police followed? 

[shrader]

10 hours ago, Eleven said:

It was the "I smell something" or whatever pretext for the search that was BS and not the initial stop (which was prompted by a caller who saw him speeding toward a construction zone, not drinking a beer).  And if you want to call me and others idiots, fine, but I know how this world works.

The initial report in here said he had an open beer between his legs.  Has the story changed since then?  If that report is accurate, wouldn't that be more than enough reason for any search?

[Eleven]

2 hours ago, shrader said:

The initial report in here said he had an open beer between his legs.  Has the story changed since then?  If that report is accurate, wouldn't that be more than enough reason for any search?

I'm not so sure about that.

Also, if I'm the type of LEO who is prone to try to give black people a hard time, I'm going to have multiple pretextual bases for my search if I can.

2 hours ago, tom webster said:

For the record, I agree with this. Obviously none of us know for sure but I can tell you, as someone who has spent a considerable amount of time in Cheektowaga and Grand Island, it must suck to be a black man sometimes. I can vividly recount several instances where a rowdy group of white kids were walking down one side of the street and a random black kid walking down the other side and guess who the Cheektowaga Police followed? 

Some Kenmore police officers refer to "UNITs" when they see certain people walking down Delaware or Elmwood.  U is Unidentified.  I is In.  T is Town, and you can figure out N for yourself.

[inkman]

7 minutes ago, Eleven said:

I'm not so sure about that.

Also, if I'm the type of LEO who is prone to try to give black people a hard time, I'm going to have multiple pretextual bases for my search if I can.

Some Kenmore police officers refer to "UNITs" when they see certain people walking down Delaware or Elmwood.  U is Unidentified.  I is In.  T is Town, and you can figure out N for yourself.

Well that's despicable, and I don't offend easily (like it needed to be said)

[shrader]

32 minutes ago, Eleven said:

I'm not so sure about that.

Also, if I'm the type of LEO who is prone to try to give black people a hard time, I'm going to have multiple pretextual bases for my search if I can.

I'm not sure what a question about driving with an open container has to do with race.

[Eleven]

15 minutes ago, shrader said:

I'm not sure what a question about driving with an open container has to do with race.

Sure, so let me try to come at it this way.  If a LEO pulls someone over and wants to give them a hard time*--whether it has to do with race or not--and search a vehicle, etc., that LEO is going to want to find as many reasons as possible to justify the search.  Just because you're driving with a can of beer between your legs does not necessarily mean that probable cause for a search exists.  (Nor does it mean that if that's the only thing you're doing wrong, there is no PC.)  But now, if that LEO "smells something," or has unsupportable and vague allegations that the person must be "on something else," or whatever, well, there's another basis.  "I saw him make a sudden movement" wasn't uncommon before body cameras, for example.  Or "it looked like she had a bulge in her pants."  A LEO who wants to create probable cause isn't going to rely on just the beer can; the LEO is going to "find," i.e., create, as many reasons as possible.

I'm not anti-LEO at ALL.  I used to interact with LEOs on a near-daily basis and most of them are fine people.  But when I see this happen, where it happened, and to whom it happened, my hunch, based only upon life experience and a life of reading the news, is that something else was at play.

 

*And sometimes there are really good reasons why the LEO wants to give someone a hard time.  Prior experience with the individual, or the individual starts with some sovereign citizen nonsense, etc., etc.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Eleven

[Hank]

According to local news he was driving 80 in a 45, weaving through traffic pulling a trailer, had an open beer and failed a field sobriety test. But yeah, it MUST be racism. 

[Eleven]

1 minute ago, Hank said:

According to local news he was driving 80 in a 45, weaving through traffic pulling a trailer, had an open beer and failed a field sobriety test. But yeah, it MUST be racism. 

Ah Hank.  Such a patriot.

[darksabre]

11 minutes ago, Hank said:

According to local news he was driving 80 in a 45, weaving through traffic pulling a trailer, had an open beer and failed a field sobriety test. But yeah, it MUST be racism. 

Is anyone here saying it is? 

[shrader]

8 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Ah Hank.  Such a patriot.

I'm sorry, but what exactly is Hank doing wrong here?  He's at least trying to look at actual documentation here as opposed to blindly making inferences about the situation.

[Eleven]

1 hour ago, shrader said:

I'm sorry, but what exactly is Hank doing wrong here?  He's at least trying to look at actual documentation here as opposed to blindly making inferences about the situation.

Deliberately failing to distinguish between the reason for the stop and the reason for the search.   

[Indabuff]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

According to local news he was driving 80 in a 45, weaving through traffic pulling a trailer, had an open beer and failed a field sobriety test. But yeah, it MUST be racism. 

I have not been following this situation or thread but if this is indeed true then there is reasonable suspicion and very likely probable cause that warrants a search.  I don't care if it was Donald Trump or Barack Obama driving, it's reckless endangerment and someone could have been killed.  If I was driving 35 mph over the posted speed limit, weaving though traffic and had a roadie in between my legs I would fully expect to have my vehicle searched thoroughly regardless if I smelled like Hugo Boss or marijuana. 

[Eleven]

1 hour ago, Indabuff said:

I have not been following this situation or thread but if this is indeed true then there is reasonable suspicion and very likely probable cause that warrants a search.  I don't care if it was Donald Trump or Barack Obama driving, it's reckless endangerment and someone could have been killed.  If I was driving 35 mph over the posted speed limit, weaving though traffic and had a roadie in between my legs I would fully expect to have my vehicle searched thoroughly regardless if I smelled like Hugo Boss or marijuana. 

This seems to have started it:  

 

 

[Indabuff]

26 minutes ago, Eleven said:

This seems to have started it:  

 

 

I don't want to get involved in an opinionated pissing match (not at all implying you're dragging me into one).  I'm just stating the facts from a law enforcement perspective. 

[Weave]

27 minutes ago, Indabuff said:

I don't want to get involved in an opinionated pissing match (not at all implying you're dragging me into one).  I'm just stating the facts from a law enforcement perspective. 

What would be probable cause in that scenario?

[shrader]

19 minutes ago, Weave said:

What would be probable cause in that scenario?

Probable cause of a pissing match? Look at the pants. 

[Indabuff]

15 minutes ago, Weave said:

What would be probable cause in that scenario?

1). Driving 35 mph over the posted speed limit.

2). Weaving though traffic (likely unsafe lane changes at the very least but I won't assume).

3). Open container of alcohol present in vehicle.

Typically law enforcement requires articulable facts to escalate from reasonable suspicion to probable cause.  I'd say that was plenty but I wasn't there and I don't know went down.

[Eleven]

21 minutes ago, shrader said:

Probable cause of a pissing match? Look at the pants. 

Probable cause of a pissing match is Hank calling people who don't agree with him "idiots."  Because Hank is a patriot!

That was the "shots fired."  

 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Eleven

[Indabuff]

Well at least I know Weave hasn't blocked me by responding to my post.  I'm waiting for him to divulge where he's been fishing and for what.  Goddam tight-lipped anglers.

[Eleven]

1 minute ago, Indabuff said:

Well at least I know Weave hasn't blocked me by responding to my post.  I'm waiting for him to divulge where he's been fishing and for what.  Goddam tight-lipped anglers.

Ha on the anglers!

I won't speak for weave but I don't think he'd block someone out of disagreement.  Otherwise he wouldn't take my phone calls.

[Tondas]

7 hours ago, inkman said:

Well that's despicable, and I don't offend easily (like it needed to be said)

I'm with you Ink.  This is the 21st century.  Racism is taught, not an innate belief.  When can we finally get past this?

[Hank]

10 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Probable cause of a pissing match is Hank calling people who don't agree with him "idiots."  Because Hank is a patriot!

That was the "shots fired."  

 

Shots fired?  I did not quote you or mention your name. I'm not a fan of generalizations and assumptions, especially regarding something as serious as racism. Given what has currently come out it's intellectually dishonest to imply that Oliver was treated unfairly because of his skin color.

  Many people believe that lawyers lack morals. There have been scandals about clergy abusing kids. Would it be accurate to assume you're an immoral child rapist based on your previous and future profession?

 

This is the 3rd or 4th time you've recently taken a personal shot at me, unprovoked. If I was going to take a personal shot at you I'd tell you your recent posts in another thread came across as a bit racist. I'd then tell you that your assertion that a large portion of our population, including the decent sized city of Nashville, was "willfully ignorant" based solely on their geographic location, was a very ignorant and prejudicial thing of you to say. I'd say that ignorance is ruled out because of your extended higher education which means you're just prejudiced. Than I'd point out that it's a small step to get from prejudiced to racist, but I didn't do that. 

Look, I get it. You lost what should have been a high paying job if you were any good at it and your stressed. If you need a distraction while trying to transition during your later years of life I'm willing to help. I'm financially well off, bored and willing to go back and forth with you,  but we should probably move it to PM. 

[Eleven]

13 minutes ago, Hank said:

Shots fired?  I did not quote you or mention your name. I'm not a fan of generalizations and assumptions, especially regarding something as serious as racism. Given what has currently come out it's intellectually dishonest to imply that Oliver was treated unfairly because of his skin color.

  Many people believe that lawyers lack morals. There have been scandals about clergy abusing kids. Would it be accurate to assume you're an immoral child rapist based on your previous and future profession?

 

This is the 3rd or 4th time you've recently taken a personal shot at me, unprovoked. If I was going to take a personal shot at you I'd tell you your recent posts in another thread came across as a bit racist. I'd then tell you that your assertion that a large portion of our population, including the decent sized city of Nashville, was "willfully ignorant" based solely on their geographic location, was a very ignorant and prejudicial thing of you to say. I'd say that ignorance is ruled out because of your extended higher education which means you're just prejudiced. Than I'd point out that it's a small step to get from prejudiced to racist, but I didn't do that. 

Look, I get it. You lost what should have been a high paying job if you were any good at it and your stressed. If you need a distraction while trying to transition during your later years of life I'm willing to help. I'm financially well off, bored and willing to go back and forth with you,  but we should probably move it to PM. 

Patriot, you're the one who started it with "idiots."  Not me.  You might reconsider whether you truly represent our great country with the invective you use.

 

EDIT:  And I lost my job?!  That's just funny.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Eleven

[Hank]

51 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Patriot, you're the one who started it with "idiots."  Not me.  You might reconsider whether you truly represent our great country with the invective you use.

 

EDIT:  And I lost my job?!  That's just funny.

I know you mean patriot in a derogatory way, but I take pride in spending most of my adult life serving my country. I guess you think you took a more noble path transitioning from ambulance chaser to child molester. 

[Eleven]

Just now, Hank said:

I know you mean patriot in a derogatory way, but I take pride in spending most of my adult life serving my country. I guess you think you took a more noble path transitioning from ambulance chaser to child molester. 

That's nice, and not exactly unexpected, patriot.