Jbot needs to go

[GASabresIUFAN]

Here is TM’s D group

Risto, McCabe, Franson, Gorges, Bogo and Kulikov and Falk

Here is Jbots

Risto, McCabe, Montour, Miller, Dahlin, Jokiharju and Pilut

Which would you rather have? This one is pretty easy.  
 

[dudacek]

7 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

@dudacek

Besides Lazar, Montour, Joker and Skinner? 

Bringing up Lehner as this great talent he let go is BS.  He was terrible his final year here and had real medical issues.  You seem to forget he couldn’t stop a shot in a shootout.  Jbot had zero way of knowing he would get healthy much less play good hockey.  Honestly Ullmark is giving us just as much as Lehner did for much less.

Kane was replaced by Skinner who is a better player despite this season. 

The only good player he got rid of and didn’t replace is ROR.

I don’t see anyone complaining about him getting rid of or not retaining TM stalwarts Gorges, Bogo, Moulson, Ennis, Kulikov, Franson, or Gionta.  

People also keep bringing up Vesey as some big fail.  We paid a 3rd for a bottom 6 winger. He hasn’t put the goals ( no center)  but he has played good defensively and added more assists then expected.  He is on pace to hit his usual points total.  This may not be a great success but it is far from a fail.  

You keep bringing up trees and ignoring the forest.

Are you happy that the net positives of three years work amount to a top 4 defenceman, a potential top 4 defenceman, a streaky goal scorer with a $9 million contract and a hard-working tweener who has averaged 6 NHL goals a season?

I can’t see how this supports Jason at all.

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by dudacek

[DarthEbriate]

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Here is TM’s D group

Risto, McCabe, Franson, Gorges, Bogo and Kulikov and Falk

Here is Jbots

Risto, McCabe, Montour, Miller, Dahlin, Jokiharju and Pilut

Which would you rather have? This one is pretty easy.  
 

Additionally, at the AHL/organizational level, too. JBot has rebuilt the D pipeline. That is something good he's accomplished. Will they all work out? No, but there are options that can be played or moved for years out.

Edit: Although, with the exception of Dahlin -- it could come down to personal preference of playing style. GMTM wanted heavy (and slow); JBot wants puck-moving and some wheels.

Edited February 21, 2020 by DarthEbriate

[jsb]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Can you elaborate on this cause I'm seeing this as just some wishful thinking.

 

[Randall Flagg]

23 minutes ago, Curt said:

Not true.  There are people here who think that 80% of the players need to be changed out, that it needs to be blown up, that the team is nowhere close to a playoff team and a couple good additions is not nearly enough to get there.

At least I’ve seen it said multiple times.

Eh, I don't count posts within 24 hours of a loss lol

[GASabresIUFAN]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

You keep bringing up trees and ignoring the forest.

Are you happy that the net positives of three years work amount to a top 4 defenceman, a potential top 4 defenceman, a streaky goal scorer with a $9 million contract and a hard-working tweener who has averaged 6 NHL goals a season?

I can’t see how this supports Jason at all.

 

I wrote out the forest up thread. 
We are 5 players from having a very good team, 3 of which are already in the organization.  We need a backup goalie who can play 30 games and that maybe Johansson but can be found elsewhere if it isn’t.

We need 4 forwards 2 centers and 2 RW for our middle 6.  Cozens and Mitts/Thompson will take the 3rd line roles.  Leaving the GM the task of finding 2 2nd line players.  This may not be easy but it is possible given our depth on D and our cap space this summer, especially with recent stories that guys like Hertl, Henrique and Trocheck might be available.  

So overall I see the forest just fine thanks.

Ultimately all the complaints about Jbot still come down to he didn’t replace ROR.  I’ve been critical of this since Berglund walked and am very annoyed that he so far hasn’t replaced him.  

However, when I look at the transformation of the defense, the near ready talent, one great forward line, a solid depth forward line, and Skinner as the scorer for the second line, I feel good that if corrects his biggest error we’ll have a very good team.  

PS It’s amazing how TM now gets credit for bring in Jack and Reinhart but Jbot doesn’t get credit for Dahlin, especially when TM should have taken Leon instead of Sam.

[GASabresIUFAN]

54 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The core of this team remains players that Murray collected, plus Dahlin who fell into Jason’s lap.

Besides the core pieces that fell into TMs lap in Jack and Sam, which core piece did TM collect that is here and making a difference? Risto was a DR draftee. VO?

The defense is 2 DR players and 5 Jbot players.

Edited February 21, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[freester]

12 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I wrote out the forest up thread. 
We are 5 players from having a very good team, 3 of which are already in the organization.  We need a backup goalie who can play 30 games and that maybe Johansson but can be found elsewhere if it isn’t.

We need 4 forwards 2 centers and 2 RW for our middle 6.  Cozens and Mitts/Thompson will take the 3rd line roles.  Leaving the GM the task of finding 2 2nd line players.  This may not be easy but it is possible given our depth on D and our cap space this summer, especially with recent stories that guys like Hertl, Henrique and Trocheck might be available.  

So overall I see the forest just fine thanks.

Ultimately all the complaints about Jbot still come down to he didn’t replace ROR.  I’ve been critical of this since Berglund walked and am very annoyed that he so far hasn’t replaced him.  

However, when I look at the transformation of the defense, the near ready talent, one great forward line, a solid depth forward line, and Skinner as the scorer for the second line, I feel good that if corrects his biggest error we’ll have a very good team.  

PS It’s amazing how TM now gets credit for bring in Jack and Reinhart but Jbot doesn’t get credit for Dahlin, especially when TM should have taken Leon instead of Sam.

TM gets credit for bringing in Jack and Sam since it was an intentional tank.  Botteril tried to win but was so incompetent he stumbled into Dahlin.

[GASabresIUFAN]

13 minutes ago, freester said:

TM gets credit for bringing in Jack and Sam since it was an intentional tank.  Botteril tried to win but was so incompetent he stumbled into Dahlin.

I don’t think that is true.  Looking at that FA class its pretty clear that he wasn’t trying to win.  
Also considering that the tank destroyed the franchise and his waste of much of the tank fruit I’m not sure he should get credit for anything especially when he blew the Reinhart selection.  How much better would we be with Leon as our 2c?

[dudacek]

46 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I wrote out the forest up thread. 
We are 5 players from having a very good team, 3 of which are already in the organization.  We need a backup goalie who can play 30 games and that maybe Johansson but can be found elsewhere if it isn’t.

We need 4 forwards 2 centers and 2 RW for our middle 6.  Cozens and Mitts/Thompson will take the 3rd line roles.  Leaving the GM the task of finding 2 2nd line players.  This may not be easy but it is possible given our depth on D and our cap space this summer, especially with recent stories that guys like Hertl, Henrique and Trocheck might be available.  

So overall I see the forest just fine thanks.

Ultimately all the complaints about Jbot still come down to he didn’t replace ROR.  I’ve been critical of this since Berglund walked and am very annoyed that he so far hasn’t replaced him.  

However, when I look at the transformation of the defense, the near ready talent, one great forward line, a solid depth forward line, and Skinner as the scorer for the second line, I feel good that if corrects his biggest error we’ll have a very good team.  

PS It’s amazing how TM now gets credit for bring in Jack and Reinhart but Jbot doesn’t get credit for Dahlin, especially when TM should have taken Leon instead of Sam.

The forest you keep talking about is the current roster and how it projects moving forward, and you frequently default to arguing how Botterill's team is better than Murray's. I generally agree with you in these areas. But being better than Murray isn't a big deal. We need him to be better than Lamoriello or Sweeney or Rutherford and the rest of his competition.

The forest I am talking about is Botterill's track record on managing assets and identifying and acquiring talent — the two dozen moves I detailed above in that huge wall of text. I think they show a man who has failed to demonstrate he is capable of making the moves we need to get us back into the game.

The majority of his moves have been for bad players, or bad fits and it leads me to believe there is a very realistic chance that he will squander the opportunity both you and I believe is sitting in front of us.

Edited February 21, 2020 by dudacek

[freester]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I don’t think that is true.  Looking at that FA class its pretty clear that he wasn’t trying to win.  
Also considering that the tank destroyed the franchise and his waste of much of the tank fruit I’m not sure he should get credit for anything especially when he blew the Reinhart selection.  How much better would we be with Leon as our 2c?

No doubt Leon should have been the pick, but there were no experts saying that at the time.  Everyone was saying Sam Bennett or Reinhart.  Thank god he didn't take Bennett

[GASabresIUFAN]

5 minutes ago, dudacek said:

The forest you keep talking about is the current roster and how it projects moving forward, and you frequently default to explaining how Botterill's team is better than Murray's. I generally agree with you in these areas.

The forest I am talking about Botterill's track record on managing assets and identifying and acquiring talent — the two dozen moves I detailed above in that huge wall of text. I think they show a man who has failed to show he is capable of making the moves we need to get us back into the game.

The majority of his moves have been for bad players, or bad fits and it leads me to believe there is a very realistic chance that he will squander the opportunity both you and I believe is sitting in front of us.

I believe this is fair and maybe it comes down to I have more faith in his ability to bring in talent because of his transformation of the defense and the steal he got in Skinner.  

I’m also not as will to throw a 20 and 21 year old kid under the bus as others here.  If Mitts and Thompson were 23 and 24 I’d be more likely to call them busts but we are even close to that status.

 

Edited February 21, 2020 by GASabresIUFAN

[nfreeman]

34 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I wrote out the forest up thread. 
We are 5 players from having a very good team, 3 of which are already in the organization.  We need a backup goalie who can play 30 games and that maybe Johansson but can be found elsewhere if it isn’t.

We need 4 forwards 2 centers and 2 RW for our middle 6.  Cozens and Mitts/Thompson will take the 3rd line roles.  Leaving the GM the task of finding 2 2nd line players.  This may not be easy but it is possible given our depth on D and our cap space this summer, especially with recent stories that guys like Hertl, Henrique and Trocheck might be available.  

So overall I see the forest just fine thanks.

Ultimately all the complaints about Jbot still come down to he didn’t replace ROR.  I’ve been critical of this since Berglund walked and am very annoyed that he so far hasn’t replaced him.  

However, when I look at the transformation of the defense, the near ready talent, one great forward line, a solid depth forward line, and Skinner as the scorer for the second line, I feel good that if corrects his biggest error we’ll have a very good team.  

PS It’s amazing how TM now gets credit for bring in Jack and Reinhart but Jbot doesn’t get credit for Dahlin, especially when TM should have taken Leon instead of Sam.

First bolded:  the #1 goalie issue is far from resolved.  Linus hasn't shown more than maybe being a bottom-half starter.  In evaluating JB, his failure to bring in a strong #1 goalie -- which is the most important position on the ice, especially for a young team struggling to escape from loserville -- is a huge negative IMHO.

2nd bolded:  as I and others have stated previously, it would be nuts to assume that 2 of Mitts, Cozens and TT will be meaningful contributors next season, when none of them has shown the ability to do so to date.

3rd bolded:  No.  The complaints about JB arise from the fact that we are 3 years into his regime, the team still stinks, there is exactly one forward in the pipeline who can reasonably be expected to be a top-6 guy and JB has made quite a few indisputably terrible moves.

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, freester said:

No doubt Leon should have been the pick, but there were no experts saying that at the time.  Everyone was saying Sam Bennett or Reinhart.  Thank god he didn't take Bennett

Actually I have my pre draft chart from that draft and Leon had many supporters as the 2nd overall pick.  Sam had the most of the 14 prospect writers I follow, but Leon was next and then Bennett

[nfreeman]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

Actually I have my pre draft chart from that draft and Leon had many supporters as the 2nd overall pick.  Sam had the most of the 14 prospect writers I follow, but Leon was next and then Bennett

Correct.  It was Ekblad and then a tossup between the 3 forwards.  GMTM didn't pick the absolutely wrong one but he didn't pick the right one either.

[Sabre fan]

I do think this team is a really good 2nd lien center and a NHL goalie from being a playoff team. As for jumping on an doff the bandwagon; Toronto and Montreal fans do the exact same thing. This is not a new or shocking phenomenon...sports fans have been doing likewise for a very long time.     

[freester]

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I believe this is fair and maybe it comes down to I have more faith in his ability to bring in talent because of his transformation of the defense and the steal he got in Skinner.  

I’m also not as will to throw a 20 and 21 year old kid under the bus as others here.  If Mitts and Thompson were 23 and 24 I’d be more likely to call them busts but we are even close to that status.

 

Skinner was no steal.  Carolina's GM who is infinitely better than ours determined that it was unwise to spend big money on a one dimensional sniper (with a concussion history)  at the least valuable position.  The results this year speak for themselves.  We are now in possession of the worst contract in the league and Carolina is headed to the playoffs.

[DarthEbriate]

11 minutes ago, freester said:

No doubt Leon should have been the pick, but there were no experts saying that at the time.  Everyone was saying Sam Bennett or Reinhart.  Thank god he didn't take Bennett

This is my memory as well. Draisaitl was viewed as the next tier down -- 4-6 range.

Edit: Provided this is undoctored --- Draisaitl didn't get too much love by the draft pundits: http://www.mynhldraft.com/2014-nhl-draft-prospect-rankings/ 

 

As to overall theme of the cap management -- we'll see soon enough. We're up against the cap this season but no longer in hell. Okposo's is the sole remaining overpayment for position on the books. (My definition being: Skinner is having a bad year and playing 2LW, but was paid as a 1LW). Okposo was paid as a 1-2W, but is a 4W and his production is as such.)

The fully armed and operational JBot roster starts this summer after he gets to rebuild via UFA with plenty of cash. How much does Reino get? Olofsson? The 2C we've been needing for 2 years? And -- less importantly, but critical to the cap, who fills the side roles currently held by Sobotka and Vesey? Is Angry Larry gone? And are we right back into cap mismanagement when Dahlin comes due next offseason? Sadly, only time will tell whether we look back at this offseason as the reason we're contenders or the reason JBot is gone and the whole thing needs to be reset with the next GM's vision of a roster.

Edited February 21, 2020 by DarthEbriate

[triumph_communes]

10 hours ago, dudacek said:

Traded what became a 4th rounder for Conor Sheary and Matt Hunwick in order to add speed and secondary scoring to the middle six (and perhaps some depth to the backline, although that’s highly unlikely). Sheary made the Sabres faster, scored a career low 14 goals last year and looks poised to have a similar total this year. He brought little else and has been benched at times. Hunwick brought nothing but his salary burden. Sheary has done what he was acquired to do, if in somewhat disappointing fashion. However, his contribution has been outweighed by the $5.2 million cap hit the trade brought with it for two full years and its accompanying opportunity cost. Fail.

Did not qualify Robin Lehner and let him walk for nothing because he decided the risk of Lehner’s well-publicized personal issues were not worth the required salary commitment. Lehner pulled his life together and put together back-to-back good seasons of legitimate starting goaltending, while Buffalo has struggled to find the same. I doubt there is a poster on here that wouldn’t give Botterill a pass on this one, but based strictly on the results, it can only be called a fail.

According to the CBA, the ONLY way Botterill could have retained Lehner was to pay him >4 million per season.  Only one team even dared touch Lehner with a 10ft pole, after Jason by the player's own account did everything to set him in the right path, for a 1.5 million dollar contract.  Then he signed for a team desperate for a goalie for a 1-yr 5 million.  He could have just as easily gone the other way and went back into his spiral and not be a professional ever again.  There is absolutely NO way Jason can be blamed for any of this at all.  His hands were completely tied by Murray before him and the CBA itself.

Saying Sheary is a fail when he's the only other realistic option other than signing the Pouliot type players that was a fail the year prior.  We offered more money to UFAs and they didn't bite, and was cap stricken otherwise.  Again, I don't think this is a fair assessment at all.  Especially when Sheary may even return more than a 3rd in return if he's dealt this weekend-- his story isn't over.

 

[LGR4GM]

28 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I don’t think that is true.  Looking at that FA class its pretty clear that he wasn’t trying to win.  
Also considering that the tank destroyed the franchise and his waste of much of the tank fruit I’m not sure he should get credit for anything especially when he blew the Reinhart selection.  How much better would we be with Leon as our 2c?

Probably as good if ROR was our 2c. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

@triumph_communes

I do all the revisionist history on Lehner as if he was this great star here worthy of being our franchise goalie.

2019-20

Lehner $5 mill 3.01 gaa and .918 sv %
Ullmark $2.75 2.72 gaa and .914 sv%
 

 

[LGR4GM]

25 minutes ago, freester said:

No doubt Leon should have been the pick, but there were no experts saying that at the time.  Everyone was saying Sam Bennett or Reinhart.  Thank god he didn't take Bennett

There were serious questions about Leon's skating at the time of the draft. Obviously those were fixed. Leon developed very well after a slow start. 

[Brawndo]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

There were serious questions about Leon's skating at the time of the draft. Obviously those were fixed. Leon developed very well after a slow start. 

The Irony is that GMTM went with size over skill for most of his picks and even told Schopp and the Bulldog leading up to that draft that when Leon sticks his ass out it’s difficult to move him. 

[jad1]

47 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Besides the core pieces that fell into TMs lap in Jack and Sam, which core piece did TM collect that is here and making a difference? Risto was a DR draftee. VO?

The defense is 2 DR players and 5 Jbot players.

Hard to make this argument when Murray also landed O'Reilly and Kane, two guys who added 100 points to the top 6 forwards.  Botterill traded away those 100 points for nothing.

The foward ranks were decimated when Murray took over, and rebuilding the top 6 fowards was his number one priority.  

What's Botterill's priority? Building out the top 11 defensemen before addressing the 2C?

GMs have to actually build an NHL team, and that requires more than just the draft.  Neither Murray nor Botterill have done a good job of this, but with Murray at least there was a plan.  Botterill's plan has no rhyme or reason to it, other than building out the defense to an absurd degree.

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, jad1 said:

Hard to make this argument when Murray also landed O'Reilly and Kane, two guys who added 100 points to the top 6 forwards.  Botterill traded away those 100 points for nothing.

The foward ranks were decimated when Murray took over, and rebuilding the top 6 fowards was his number one priority.  

What's Botterill's priority? Building out the top 11 defensemen before addressing the 2C?

GMs have to actually build an NHL team, and that requires more than just the draft.  Neither Murray nor Botterill have done a good job of this, but with Murray at least there was a plan.  Botterill's plan has no rhyme or reason to it, other than building out the defense to an absurd degree.

Just wait til at 5th overall he takes Drysdale in the draft.