Jbot needs to go

[TrueBlueGED]

2 minutes ago, Curt said:

There definitely is a difference and my remarks were not a defense of the job Botterill has done.  The results just haven’t been there and his moves have been a mixed bag.

Thats an interesting point regarding the contract length, but who knows.  I couldn’t say how the Pegulas view having a lame duck in there.

When does Botterill’s contract end?  Was it a 4 year deal?

4 years is what's been reported recently. I don't recall hearing anything when he was hired about it though. 

[Brawndo]

Botterill has given us a lot of evidence that he will not be capable of constructing a roster able to compete for the Stanley Cup. 
 

This offseason is critical with the cap space available and the decisions that need to be made on the pending RFAs, does anyone have faith that he can get it done?  

Getting to this point without moving a defenseman, the 31 Thoughts Podcast mentioning Ehlers was available this summer, coupled with the bad trades he had made. I’m going with he is not the GM we are looking for. 
 

That being said I do believe that Botterill gets another year, but the Sabres do hire Ray Shero as President of Hockey Ops as another voice in the room so they can point and say “we did something!”

[DarthEbriate]

1 hour ago, sweetlou said:

JBott has at least one more year.  This off season is huge for him with only a few players signed for next year.  What salaries do the RFA's get and what is he able to bring in via trades or UFA's will determine how long he stays on after that.

This is his year. He gets this offseason with a clean FA slate to remake the forwards and set up a healthy cap (I can't believe this roster is against the cap). Then, it's playoffs or bust going toward the CBA and expansion draft. No progress next season and he's out.

In theory, I like what JBot has done. He and Sexton have gotten ROC and Cincinnati stocked to compete with their peers. In Rochester's case that was after years of neglect to the team, to the facilities, etc. I want our prospects in good environments and preferably making deep playoff runs (Grand Rapids- or WBS-style). I like that he focused on getting a D pipeline with a mix of college, USDP, and European league players so they can stagger their lengthier development time with controlled contracts (and -- in theory -- then go forward/center heavy in drafts now [and take a D if BPA]). I like that he's building a faster team --- I was always a fan especially of routinely beating the Flyers and their "legion of boom"/"we're the big bad bullies" with our fast and feisty '90s squads.

In execution... I find my lack of faith disturbing. We're faster than we were, but we're not feisty/gritty at all, and we're not comparably fast to other "fast" teams like Colorado and... Ottawa???.... We have no center spine as yet. All those D drafts seem to be the same style player except Samuelsson... which is not so good. As to trades --- he's gotten assets in a few, and that's good. What he's then done with those acquired assets is pretty awful in hindsight. And then there is the ROR trade which is indefensible unless everything had gone right from our side.

Edited February 7, 2020 by DarthEbriate

[pi2000]

I'm willing to give him another year or two.

There is simply not enough depth yet.  Some injuries (Olofsson, Dahlin, Ullmark, Sobotka, Okposo, Skinner, etc) and this team is just not very good.

Sobotka's injury really set this team back.   He was filling his role perfectly, best face-off man on the team (56% on 70 attempts), physical 2nd on the team in hits/60 at the time. They are 12-18-9 since his injury.    

  

[WildCard]

8 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

I'm willing to give him another year or two.

There is simply not enough depth yet.  Some injuries (Olofsson, Dahlin, Ullmark, Sobotka, Okposo, Skinner, etc) and this team is just not very good.

Sobotka's injury really set this team back.   He was filling his role perfectly, best face-off man on the team (56% on 70 attempts), physical 2nd on the team in hits/60 at the time. They are 12-18-9 since his injury.    

  

Correlation not causation. 

[DarthEbriate]

Note:  For the ROR trade to work to perfection, here's what had to happen:

Berglund plays 2C/3C and compiles his regular 15-20G pace for a couple years while Mitts learn the ropes in AHL and 4th line and develops into a legit 2C/3C by 2021. Then, we get a "new-CBA" buyout on Berglund for no penalty.

Sobotka plays 3/4W with gusto. He helps our defensive game, plays smart, and rubs off on the team in that manner. And he nets his STL-range of 8-10 goals per season.

STL doesn't start to play better, Binnington doesn't ignite them, and they continue on their trajectory to a top 10 pick (like 8-10). We end up with Cozens AND we raid the US NTDP for either Zegras, Caufield, or Knight depending on who you like.

Thompson learns to use his size and cannon shot to become a bona fide 2W and a PP specialist (like a great big Golofsson).

Never tell me the odds, but that's a lot of ifs that need to hit for a success.

[TrueBlueGED]

34 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Botterill has given us a lot of evidence that he will not be capable of constructing a roster able to compete for the Stanley Cup. 
 

This offseason is critical with the cap space available and the decisions that need to be made on the pending RFAs, does anyone have faith that he can get it done?  

Getting to this point without moving a defenseman, the 31 Thoughts Podcast mentioning Ehlers was available this summer, coupled with the bad trades he had made. I’m going with he is not the GM we are looking for. 
 

That being said I do believe that Botterill gets another year, but the Sabres do hire Ray Shero as President of Hockey Ops as another voice in the room so they can point and say “we did something!”

?????

[Kruppstahl]

31 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Botterill has given us a lot of evidence that he will not be capable of constructing a roster able to compete for the Stanley Cup. 
 

This offseason is critical with the cap space available and the decisions that need to be made on the pending RFAs, does anyone have faith that he can get it done?  

Getting to this point without moving a defenseman, the 31 Thoughts Podcast mentioning Ehlers was available this summer, coupled with the bad trades he had made. I’m going with he is not the GM we are looking for. 
 

That being said I do believe that Botterill gets another year, but the Sabres do hire Ray Shero as President of Hockey Ops as another voice in the room so they can point and say “we did something!”

He's more than amply demonstrated that he doesn't know what he's doing.  I'm not sure it makes sense to double down on him and let him damage this organization more than he already has with another trade deadline and off-season set of deals. 

Let's not forget, with the exception of 3 or 4 players, this is entirely his team.  He is terrible at roster building and player evaluation.

I'm just listening to the post game interviews from last night now (WGR-550 didn't load the file correctly last night so we couldn't listen then) and there were more embarrassing questions asked beyond the Harrington/Reinhart dustup.

References to the empty seats, the booing...the Sabres have received the focused attention of the national media all week...

This crap is getting ugly fast.  The organization is really in a bad, embarrassing place right now. 

It all starts at the top and about the only thing Pegula can do to start fixing it is to make a change at GM.  

I don't expect it to happen though! 

 

 

 

[Radar]

2 hours ago, Torpedo Forecheck said:

Whether it is luck as you say or what not, Pegulas aren't the ones making the personnel decisions. From everything I've heard about them, you can criticize naivete, but Jerry Jones they are not. Not hard to fathom a situation where JBot is canned now, and a better decision maker comes in and improves things. Whether that is luck or not is really irrelevent. The NHL also provides assistance to teams who need help finding decision makers. The problem is too many bad decisions by the GM. Their hire didn't work out, move on

They make one very important decision though.......They hire the GM 's. I think the buck stops there. The old saying "....flows downhill". Look I think Terry is a caring owner and certainly generous in spending but he did retain Darcy, he okayed at the very least the hire of TM and says he was going to be more involved in TM's replacement. So, if you don't like the GM then you have to consider ownership. No, thankfully he's not Jerry Jones but he may be over his head a bit although well meaning. He's had some time now as an owner with pretty frustrating results.

 

 

 

 

 

[Brawndo]

Just now, TrueBlueGED said:

?????

Agree with you a 1000%. 
 

I do not want Shero at all, but based on their working together in the past, I can see it happening 

[pi2000]

2 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

Note:  For the ROR trade to work to perfection, here's what had to happen:

Berglund plays 2C/3C and compiles his regular 15-20G pace for a couple years while Mitts learn the ropes in AHL and 4th line and develops into a legit 2C/3C by 2021. Then, we get a "new-CBA" buyout on Berglund for no penalty.

Sobotka plays 3/4W with gusto. He helps our defensive game, plays smart, and rubs off on the team in that manner. And he nets his STL-range of 8-10 goals per season.

STL doesn't start to play better, Binnington doesn't ignite them, and they continue on their trajectory to a top 10 pick (like 8-10). We end up with Cozens AND we raid the US NTDP for either Zegras, Caufield, or Knight depending on who you like.

Thompson learns to use his size and cannon shot to become a bona fide 2W and a PP specialist (like a great big Golofsson).

Never tell me the odds, but that's a lot of ifs that need to hit for a success.

I'm not defending the trade but there were also a lot of ifs that had to happen for it turn out this badly for Buffalo.

Berglund quits hockey.    

Sobotka finds success in his role under RK, team having success, lands on season ending IR 16 games into the season.

Thompson taking the next step in Roch showing development, 1st game in Buffalo goes on season ending IR.

JBOT couldn't have known these things were going to happen, but they did, so it looks like an even worse trade at this point.

 

[Torpedo Forecheck]

5 minutes ago, Radar said:

They make one very important decision though.......They hire the GM 's. I think the buck stops there. The old saying "....flows downhill". Look I think Terry is a caring owner and certainly generous in spending but he did retain Darcy, he okayed at the very least the hire of TM and says he was going to be more involved in TM's replacement. So, if you don't like the GM then you have to consider ownership. No, thankfully he's not Jerry Jones but he may be over his head a bit although well meaning. He's had some time now as an owner with pretty frustrating results.

 

 

 

 

 

I understand they were involved in hiring the GM, Pegulas are not absentee owners for sure. They still delegate to the GM much decision making, and it hasn't worked out. Time to move on.

[DarthEbriate]

2 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

I'm not defending the trade but there were also a lot of ifs that had to happen for it turn out this badly for Buffalo.

Berglund quits hockey.    

Sobotka finds success in his role under RK, team having success, lands on season ending IR 16 games into the season.

Thompson taking the next step in Roch showing development, 1st game in Buffalo goes on season ending IR.

JBOT couldn't have known these things were going to happen, but they did, so it looks like an even worse trade at this point.

 

What's disgusting at the moment (with no additional foresight) is that the best thing about the trade as it stands is that a man got so disillusioned and depressed that he quit playing a game he'd loved/played since childhood and forewent millions of dollars. --- and that his contract subsequently came off our cap. That's the best thing from our perspective, and that hurts, because I don't want hockey, or being a Sabre, to break anyone. I am, at heart, not a DarthEbriate, but a DarthEmpathet.

[Radar]

1 minute ago, Torpedo Forecheck said:

I understand they were involved in hiring the GM, Pegulas are not absentee owners for sure. They still delegate to the GM much decision making, and it hasn't worked out. Time to move on.

Oh, I'm willing to move on from JBott. I'm just pointing out we've had a bad run of GM's and ownership has responsibility hefe. 

[Randall Flagg]

31 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

I'm not defending the trade but there were also a lot of ifs that had to happen for it turn out this badly for Buffalo.

Berglund quits hockey.    

Sobotka finds success in his role under RK, team having success, lands on season ending IR 16 games into the season.

Thompson taking the next step in Roch showing development, 1st game in Buffalo goes on season ending IR.

JBOT couldn't have known these things were going to happen, but they did, so it looks like an even worse trade at this point.

 

The team success did indeed happen while Sobotka was playing, but they were in the midst of losing their 4th game in a row when he got hurt. The collapse was coming whether Vlad Sobotka was playing or not. Though he was having a good start to the year relative to last season, he is not the glue to this team.

If you don't believe this, I'll point out that
1.) He also had a good start to last year, culminating in a two goal night in the middle of the streak, before going 42 straight games without a goal despite getting the 4th most minutes of all forwards in that span
2.) he was also there for last year's hot start, which was better and longer than this one
3.) The collapse last year happened with him in there too

 

[Carmel Corn]

Remove him now.  I don't want him inflicting any further damage as this team is on the brink of a major roster overhaul. I don't like his kind of players and want a GM who better understands what it takes to succeed with a completely different eye for talent.

If he is allowed to wheel and deal this summer, we will all be suffering the consequences for years to come. 

Edited February 7, 2020 by Carmel Corn

[PASabreFan]

4 hours ago, Radar said:

I'm afraid you're maybe hitting the nail on the head. I'm more and more looking at ownership as a problem here. One could argue that the Bills seem to be heading in the right direction under the same ownership but that could be just luck more than design. I hope that our ownership has not become a reason for good, qualified managers to why away from here because that follows all the way down the line and would basically kill this franchise or at best give us what we're seeing  now. Hope I'm wrong. Scary that I'm moving towards PA's position more and more with the end of another bad season approaching.

Don't be skeered. We have cookies!

2 hours ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Is 3-year turnover for the GM really worse than letting a GM who has demonstrated zero team-building acumen toss around $30 million in cap space which can have ramifications for years? 

That's the key. Kerry is in a real pickle here.

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

Botterill has given us a lot of evidence that he will not be capable of constructing a roster able to compete for the Stanley Cup. 
 

This offseason is critical with the cap space available and the decisions that need to be made on the pending RFAs, does anyone have faith that he can get it done?  

Getting to this point without moving a defenseman, the 31 Thoughts Podcast mentioning Ehlers was available this summer, coupled with the bad trades he had made. I’m going with he is not the GM we are looking for. 
 

That being said I do believe that Botterill gets another year, but the Sabres do hire Ray Shero as President of Hockey Ops as another voice in the room so they can point and say “we did something!”

The decision that has to precede such a move, of course, would be Terry admitting he has a meddling problem and stepping aside. Otherwise, Pegula-Shero-Botterill-Krueger could be a heckuva managerial shitshow.

52 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Agree with you a 1000%. 
 

I do not want Shero at all, but based on their working together in the past, I can see it happening 

Ray's dad DID coach in Buffalo, so he also checks off the Buffalo box.

[sabremike]

His new name should be Jason Botulism.

[Crusader1969]

Would you be happy with this situation??

Krueger - team president 

JBot - GM

Sexton - Asst Gm

Kronborg - coach

——-

even if RK stays behind bench for year with Kronborg is asst clash with promise of promotion for both 

 

 

[LTS]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I do not believe for a second that if Jason Botterill was fired there is not a competent replacement for him to found. 

I have trouble believing that anyone competent enough to do the GM job wouldn't look at the situation the Sabres are currently in and politely decline.  It might be different at this point mind you.  There is Skinner, Dahlin, Cozens (promise of a future).  But if you, as a GM coming, look at the Sabres depth (which gets blasted on here quite often) do you think you can be successful in a couple of years?

Perhaps you can, with this off season having as much open cap space as it does.  But then you have to believe the owner isn't going to be a problem.

6 hours ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Well, I think there's a difference between a slow rebuild and one with literally no tangible progress. I also think if Botterill sold them on a 4-5 year process that he'd probably have gotten at least a 5 year contract. Nobody thinks it's a good idea to have him a lame duck in the critical year of his plan, right? 

Three contracts on the team were inherited from Murray. That's it. This is Botterill's team. Looking at the forwards Botterill has brought in over his three years here, one of them (Skinner) has had an unquestionably positive impact. And even that was only true last year, not this season. Why should he have the opportunity to spend cap space when he has demonstrated an inability to use it well over three seasons? 

This is true.  But they were pretty bad at the time.. all 3 belonging to players who people have lamented taking up space on this roster (although I suppose 55 might have changed some peoples minds this year). (Because unless I am missing it it's Risto, Bogo, and Okposo right?)

That said, the cupboard was pretty damn bare as well.  So, you slowly have to rebuild, draft well (we'll see about that), and incrementally build the team.  

I don't know how we keep avoiding the logic flaw.

The team had no prospects.

The team has no talent.

Somehow, a GM is supposed to turn that into talent overnight.  We saw that attempt in Tim Murray.  It failed.  Miserably.

You can try and sign UFAs... of course, why does a UFA want to come here?  Because a GM will overpay them?  Then how does that benefit the team?  Because a UFA is desperate because no one wants them?  They aren't the player we're looking for... unless we get lucky.

The contracts Botterill has signed have all been to keep known players around just long enough.  The only players here long term are the ones he wants long term or has no control over (Okposo/Risto).  Slowly build the talent pool, then find the right players to bring in.  

No more debating it I suppose.  You either believe he's incapable or you aren't sold on the idea yet.  I'm not saying he will be the right GM, I am just not at the point where I believe he's not the right GM.

[Cheektorado]

15 minutes ago, LTS said:

I have trouble believing that anyone competent enough to do the GM job wouldn't look at the situation the Sabres are currently in and politely decline.  It might be different at this point mind you.  There is Skinner, Dahlin, Cozens (promise of a future).  But if you, as a GM coming, look at the Sabres depth (which gets blasted on here quite often) do you think you can be successful in a couple of years?

Perhaps you can, with this off season having as much open cap space as it does.  But then you have to believe the owner isn't going to be a problem.

I don't think many fans can disagree with the fact that this off season is a major crossroad for the team.  The question is can JBot be the GM to handle what is coming OR because it's at that crossroad should it be handed off to someone else.  I can make an argument both ways about that.  What is getting to me is if the wrong moves are made us fans are looking at another 3 years or so to get back to this spot.

They got to get it right this time.  The mulligans are over.

[Kruppstahl]

30 minutes ago, Cheektorado said:

I don't think many fans can disagree with the fact that this off season is a major crossroad for the team.  The question is can JBot be the GM to handle what is coming OR because it's at that crossroad should it be handed off to someone else.  I can make an argument both ways about that.  What is getting to me is if the wrong moves are made us fans are looking at another 3 years or so to get back to this spot.

They got to get it right this time.  The mulligans are over.

The key to the whole thing is that there is a clock ticking in the background the entire time.

The clock is Jack Eichel's peak years as an elite player.

They need to not only get it right, they need to do it pretty darned soon.

 

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, DarthEbriate said:

Note:  For the ROR trade to work to perfection, here's what had to happen:

Berglund plays 2C/3C and compiles his regular 15-20G pace for a couple years while Mitts learn the ropes in AHL and 4th line and develops into a legit 2C/3C by 2021. Then, we get a "new-CBA" buyout on Berglund for no penalty.

Sobotka plays 3/4W with gusto. He helps our defensive game, plays smart, and rubs off on the team in that manner. And he nets his STL-range of 8-10 goals per season.

STL doesn't start to play better, Binnington doesn't ignite them, and they continue on their trajectory to a top 10 pick (like 8-10). We end up with Cozens AND we raid the US NTDP for either Zegras, Caufield, or Knight depending on who you like.

Thompson learns to use his size and cannon shot to become a bona fide 2W and a PP specialist (like a great big Golofsson).

Never tell me the odds, but that's a lot of ifs that need to hit for a success.

I have been in St Louis a long time.  Berglund was done, Sobotka was done, Tage was a prospect they saw enough off to determine they could lose with Thomas and Kyrou coming up. 

Berglund was a guy the fans here loved to complain about.  Streaks of very good hockey and long periods of nothing. 

Hockey is a funny game … The Blues have been trying to win the Cup for decades - Hull and Oates, Cujo, the singing of MacGinnis, Greztky, Shanahan, Stevens, etc,   Being consistently good but never good enough.  Just when I thought they might decline for awhile they fire their coach and hire his assistant.  They pull an obscure minor league goalie up to replace a failing Allen, and they steal ROR from Buffalo and he leads them in just about every statistical category in hockey. 

[freester]

2 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Would you be happy with this situation??

Krueger - team president 

JBot - GM

Sexton - Asst Gm

Kronborg - coach

——-

even if RK stays behind bench for year with Kronborg is asst clash with promise of promotion for both 

 

 

This is a terrible idea. A terrible GM, a first time NHL coach, a team president without NHL management experience and a failed assistant GM.

I don’t want Botteril even selling concessions at Key Bank

[Radar]

3 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Would you be happy with this situation??

Krueger - team president 

JBot - GM

Sexton - Asst Gm

Kronborg - coach

——-

even if RK stays behind bench for year with Kronborg is asst clash with promise of promotion for both 

 

 

NO,NO!!!!!!!!!  Please are you kidding??? NO!!!!