Jbot needs to go

[Indabuff]

4 hours ago, CallawaySabres said:

I was thinking for this first time ever today, I may not even be a fan of this team anymore. I don't go to games, can't sell center ice tickets for $25, hate the players, hate the style of play.....There is NOTHING I like about this team and they don't occupy and of my time anymore. My kids tell me to change the channel because they think it's total boredom to watch and they know they will lose. I would have considered myself one of the biggest fans in that arena up until a few years ago and now, nothing..could care less.

Couldn't agree more.  Unfortunately the team is more of an afterthought for me now.  When I head out the door now I opt  for a ball cap other than my Sabres one.  Got two young kids and I really don't have much drive in feeding them the Sabres Kool Aid even though my son has started hockey.  I'd second guess myself if this trash was only on the ice for a year or two but it's been much longer than that.  Hearing the "it wasn't about this year it's next year" narrative makes me nauseous.  

[triumph_communes]

36 minutes ago, Curt said:

-“Armstrong says. “This was a case of a team coming together that was figuring it out and finding ways to lose games that they should have won. We weren’t finding ways to win games. In December we started to play winning hockey but we didn’t get the results [and] had a few bad beats. We went on a road trip out to Western Canada and won two out of three playing really good.””

So they were finding ways to lose games early on.

 

-“And with Berube’s promotion from an assistant’s role, some of the underlying numbers — differentials in possession and chances, and shooting percentage among others — had started to trend in the right direction, even though the team had the worst record in the league on January 2.”

After Berube was promoted some underlying numbers started to trend in the right direction, implying that they were not so good beforehand.

 

-“ “His arrival coincided with us playing well,” Armstrong says. “That’s the way it really timed out. He had a fabulous run, no doubt, but timing had a lot to do with it.” “

Armstrong is saying that Binnington joined the team when they started playing well and benefitted from the teams improved play.

 

In games 1-41 they scored 1 or 0 goals 13 times.

In games 42-82 they scored 4 or more goals 15 times.

It wasn’t all Binnington.  They played poorly early in the 2018-19 season.

Chicken egg

[Curt]

18 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Chicken egg

-You said better goaltending turned their season around.  

-I said, no, the whole team was playing bad early, then improved

-You said not according to this article.

-I gave quotes from the article discussing how their team play improved, and showed that their goal scoring improved dramatically.

-You say “Chicken egg”.  As in, it’s a question with out an answer, I assume?

What???

 

[triumph_communes]

8 minutes ago, Curt said:

-You said better goaltending turned their season around.  

-I said, no, the whole team was playing bad early, then improved

-You said not according to this article.

-I gave quotes from the article discussing how their team play improved, and showed that their goal scoring improved dramatically.

-You say “Chicken egg”.  As in, it’s a question with out an answer, I assume?

What???

 

The article is ambiguous and says it was both. I’m saying good goaltending may also lead to better play from the exact same players. 
 

dunno how many interviews with Sabre’s players you need for them to admit they play bad when they don’t trust their goalie. 

[LGR4GM]

Anyone else notice this team has gotten worse since a certain coach went back to Rochester?

[LGR4GM]

17 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

The article is ambiguous and says it was both. I’m saying good goaltending may also lead to better play from the exact same players. 
 

dunno how many interviews with Sabre’s players you need for them to admit they play bad when they don’t trust their goalie. 

Why don't you provide an interview like that from this season. 

[Thorny]

Mentioned repeatedly last year, Binnington wasn't the reason STL was good, similar to how ROR wasn't the reason we were bad, when he was here. "Well, we were last place with him" as a defense for trading ROR has always been bad. We are bad with Eichel, should we trade him? 

Binnington was a big part of that team and he may have sparked a turn around, but it was only possible because they had a well-constructed roster in the first place. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Thorny

[Skibum]

Someone needs to get fired. This was billed as a make-or-break 10 game stretch, and the Sabres came out and crapped themselves. This team stinks, still, and I don’t see anything on the horizon that could turn it around. Cozens is only one guy, and he’s 2 years away. Eichel will force a trade by then, or be granted one by way of mercy. Waaaaah.

[pi2000]

The Sabres are bad at a lot of things, we know that.   

But what are those things exactly?

Let's take a look at how they compare to their peers when looking at the intangibles; face-offs, blocked shots, hits and takeaways.

Note: Season rankings below are for players who have played 25 or more NHL games.

Also, I'm going to highlight where Sam Reinhart ranks for each category.    He'll want big bucks this offseason so let's take a look at where he ranks league wide in those categories. 

 

Face-off win %  (min 40 faceoffs taken)

Top 3 Sabres (out of 221 players with 25+ games at 40+ faceoffs): 
78th Okposo
115th Larsson
140th Eichel
...
212th Reinhart

Blocked shots/60min

Top 3 Sabres (out of 597 players):
77th McCabe
189th Jokiharju
220th Ristolainen
...
558th Reinhart

Hits/60min

Top 3 Sabres (out of 597 players):
88th Ristolainen
110th Girgensons
144th Miller
...
486th Reinhart
 

Takeaways/60min

Top 3 Sabres (out of 597 players):
20th Frolik
141st Eichel
143rd Vesey
...
438th Reinhart

I'm not even gonna bother explaining why these are key metrics for playing winning hockey... everybody here should know that already.      Most of these intangibles simply require effort, courage and determination.    You look at top teams like St. Louis and Tampa, they both have multiple players in the top 50 in each of these categories.    You can't win without doing these things well, it's a shame they haven't figured this out yet.

And this why some of us are hesitant to throw a large long term deal at Sam Reinhart, he scores well, but other than that he's largely a liability in every other facet of the game.     Is that the kind of guy this team needs to get them to the playoffs?    A skilled guy who can put up points, but doesn't do anything else at even a remotely average level? 

Edited February 6, 2020 by pi2000

[sabremike]

1 minute ago, pi2000 said:

The Sabres are bad at a lot of things, we know that.   

But what are those things exactly?

Let's take a look at how they compare to their peers when looking at the intangibles; face-offs, blocked shots, hits and takeaways.

Note: Season rankings below are for players who have played 25 or more NHL games.

Also, I'm going to highlight where Sam Reinhart ranks for each category.    He'll want big bucks this offseason so let's take a look at where he ranks league wide in those categories. 

 

Face-off win %  (min 40 faceoffs taken)

Top 3 Sabres (out of 221 players with 25+ games at 40+ faceoffs): 
78th Okposo
115th Larsson
140th Eichel
...
212th Reinhart

Blocked shots/60min

Top 3 Sabres (out of 597 players):
77th McCabe
189th Jokiharju
220th Ristolainen
...
558th Reinhart

Hits/60min

Top 3 Sabres (out of 597 players):
88th Ristolainen
110th Girgensons
144th Miller
...
486th Reinhart
 

Takeaways/60min

Top 3 Sabres (out of 597 players):
20th Frolik
141st Eichel
143rd Vesey
...
438th Reinhart

I'm not even gonna bother explaining why these are key metrics for playing winning hockey... everybody here should know that already.      Most of these intangibles simply require effort, courage and determination.    You look at top teams like St. Louis and Tampa, they both have multiple players in the top 50 in each of these categories.    You can't win without doing these things well, it's a shame they haven't figured this out yet.

Number of hits is not a good category to lead the league in as teams at the top of that list are often at the bottom of the standings. For starters: it indicates you are losing the possession game.

[pi2000]

2 minutes ago, sabremike said:

Number of hits is not a good category to lead the league in as teams at the top of that list are often at the bottom of the standings. For starters: it indicates you are losing the possession game.

I'm not buying it.

The top 2 teams in hits/60min are NYI and PIT, both playoff teams. 

In fact, 6 of the top 10 teams are currently in playoff positions.

[Weave]

Just to nitpick, if you can measure it, it can't be intangible.  It's right there in the definition of the root word.

[Carmel Corn]

4 minutes ago, sabremike said:

Number of hits is not a good category to lead the league in as teams at the top of that list are often at the bottom of the standings. For starters: it indicates you are losing the possession game.

Perhaps, but I would say it would be a much more entertaining team to watch if they were near the top.  I can watch a team that shows some heart and aggression, even if they lose.  I can't stand watching this current team of pansies.  Initiating hits helps to bring life to the arena and that can help energize the players.

[dudacek]

15 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

The Sabres are bad at a lot of things, we know that.   

But what are those things exactly?

Let's take a look at how they compare to their peers when looking at the intangibles; face-offs, blocked shots, hits and takeaways.

Note: Season rankings below are for players who have played 25 or more NHL games.

Also, I'm going to highlight where Sam Reinhart ranks for each category.    He'll want big bucks this offseason so let's take a look at where he ranks league wide in those categories. 

 

Face-off win %  (min 40 faceoffs taken)

Top 3 Sabres (out of 221 players with 25+ games at 40+ faceoffs): 
78th Okposo
115th Larsson
140th Eichel
...
212th Reinhart

Blocked shots/60min

Top 3 Sabres (out of 597 players):
77th McCabe
189th Jokiharju
220th Ristolainen
...
558th Reinhart

Hits/60min

Top 3 Sabres (out of 597 players):
88th Ristolainen
110th Girgensons
144th Miller
...
486th Reinhart
 

Takeaways/60min

Top 3 Sabres (out of 597 players):
20th Frolik
141st Eichel
143rd Vesey
...
438th Reinhart

I'm not even gonna bother explaining why these are key metrics for playing winning hockey... everybody here should know that already.      Most of these intangibles simply require effort, courage and determination.    You look at top teams like St. Louis and Tampa, they both have multiple players in the top 50 in each of these categories.    You can't win without doing these things well, it's a shame they haven't figured this out yet.

And this why some of us are hesitant to throw a large long term deal at Sam Reinhart, he scores well, but other than that he's largely a liability in every other facet of the game.     Is that the kind of guy this team needs to get them to the playoffs?    A skilled guy who can put up points, but doesn't do anything else at even a remotely average level? 

You might be on to something here.

Curious where Willie Nylander, TJ Oshie, Teuvo Teravainen, Max Pacioretty, Mark Stone, Patrick Laine, Brock Boeser, Jayden Schwartz, Ryan Strome, Travis Konecny, Taylor Hall, Reilly Smith, Johnny Gaudreau Nikolai Ehlers, Elias Lindholm and Jeff Skinner rank in these crucial categories?

Probably way ahead of Sam, right?

Edited February 6, 2020 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

So now we're judging Reinhart off of faceoffs, he's a winger. Hits, has no correlation to winning and is notoriously arbitrarily calculated. Blocked shots, which as you show is a defender stat and you can't block shots of you control the puck. And finally takeaways, I guess that one at least makes sense but without seeing the raw numbers idk what those rankings mean. 

Odd that you're not using Pi's infamous trpm here. I mean it's your own stat. 

Edited February 6, 2020 by LGR4GM

[LGR4GM]

I'd have to see what toi you're using for all of it too. Gonna have a lot less takeaways and blocked shots with all those pp minutes counted in. 

[pi2000]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

I'd have to see what toi you're using for all of it too. Gonna have a lot less takeaways and blocked shots with all those pp minutes counted in. 

Those stats are all per 60min of ice time.

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

So now we're judging Reinhart off of faceoffs, he's a winger. Hits, has no correlation to winning and is notoriously arbitrarily calculated. Blocked shots, which as you show is a defender stat and you can't block shots of you control the puck. And finally takeaways, I guess that one at least makes sense but without seeing the raw numbers idk what those rankings mean. 

Odd that you're not using Pi's infamous trpm here. I mean it's your own stat. 

TRpm is only meaningful when comparing teammates to eachother.

[TrueBlueGED]

27 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

The Sabres are bad at a lot of things, we know that.   

But what are those things exactly?

Let's take a look at how they compare to their peers when looking at the intangibles; face-offs, blocked shots, hits and takeaways.

Note: Season rankings below are for players who have played 25 or more NHL games.

Also, I'm going to highlight where Sam Reinhart ranks for each category.    He'll want big bucks this offseason so let's take a look at where he ranks league wide in those categories. 

 

Face-off win %  (min 40 faceoffs taken)

Top 3 Sabres (out of 221 players with 25+ games at 40+ faceoffs): 
78th Okposo
115th Larsson
140th Eichel
...
212th Reinhart

Blocked shots/60min

Top 3 Sabres (out of 597 players):
77th McCabe
189th Jokiharju
220th Ristolainen
...
558th Reinhart

Hits/60min

Top 3 Sabres (out of 597 players):
88th Ristolainen
110th Girgensons
144th Miller
...
486th Reinhart
 

Takeaways/60min

Top 3 Sabres (out of 597 players):
20th Frolik
141st Eichel
143rd Vesey
...
438th Reinhart

I'm not even gonna bother explaining why these are key metrics for playing winning hockey... everybody here should know that already.      Most of these intangibles simply require effort, courage and determination.    You look at top teams like St. Louis and Tampa, they both have multiple players in the top 50 in each of these categories.    You can't win without doing these things well, it's a shame they haven't figured this out yet.

And this why some of us are hesitant to throw a large long term deal at Sam Reinhart, he scores well, but other than that he's largely a liability in every other facet of the game.     Is that the kind of guy this team needs to get them to the playoffs?    A skilled guy who can put up points, but doesn't do anything else at even a remotely average level? 

Being low on statistics that the likes of McCabe, Risto, Okposo, and Frolik are high on is the best compliment you can give a player. Congrats on inadvertently illustrating Reinhart's value. 

[pi2000]

13 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

So now we're judging Reinhart off of faceoffs, he's a winger. Hits, has no correlation to winning and is notoriously arbitrarily calculated. Blocked shots, which as you show is a defender stat and you can't block shots of you control the puck. And finally takeaways, I guess that one at least makes sense but without seeing the raw numbers idk what those rankings mean. 

I get it that he's a winger, but he was drafted as a center and he just isn't good at it... faceoffs being one reason.   What should he be good at as a winger?   

I was hoping he would be atleast average at some of those things, but he's near the bottom of the league.

Or do we just throw money at guys based on point production and ignore every other measurable statistic?   Statistics that winning teams do well at?

[nfreeman]

I think TP in the abstract does not want to fire JB, but if they go, say, 8-17-4 in their last 29 games, which would give them 73 pts on the season (after a 76-point season last year), and there are a number of home blowouts in those 17 losses like last night's debacle -- everyone's getting canned. 

And that would be the right move.

[pi2000]

7 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Being low on statistics that the likes of McCabe, Risto, Okposo, and Frolik are high on is the best compliment you can give a player. Congrats on inadvertently illustrating Reinhart's value. 

Those guys aren't high on the list.  The only top 50 is Frolik at takeaways.   

So besides goals and assists what tangible evidence do you have that proves he's a good hockey player?

Or are points all that matters?

Edited February 6, 2020 by pi2000

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

So besides goals and assists what tangible evidence do you have that proves he's a good hockey player?

Or are points all that matters?

What tangible evidence do you have that he's not a good hockey player?

Or do points not matter?

[SwampD]

3 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Those guys aren't high on the list.  The only top 50 is Frolik at takeaways.   

So besides goals and assists what tangible evidence do you have that proves he's a good hockey player?

Or are points all that matters?

42nd in points and he plays almost every game.

pi, I love ya and agree with you most of the time, but this is some pretty egregious stat cherrypicking.

[pi2000]

Just now, SwampD said:

42nd in points and he plays almost every game.

pi, I love ya and agree with you most of the time, but this is some pretty egregious stat cherrypicking.

I'm not cherry picking stats.  Look at Tampa and St.Louis or other top teams... multiple players in the top 50 in each of those categories.    Those are key metrics for icing a winning team. 

[pi2000]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

What tangible evidence do you have that he's not a good hockey player?

Or do points not matter?

Scoring points matters of course.

Let me put it this way, in your opinion, is Sam a well rounded hockey player?

I've provided statistical evidence that shows he is not.

Let's see some evidence that he is before backing up the Pegula money truck in his driveway.