COVID 19 Discussion

[#freejame]

24 minutes ago, rickshaw said:

People. Canadian here. Sorry, don’t want to insult anyone, but Trump is butchering this. I have a friend who is now a scientist in St Louis. He says the US is 6 weeks behind. And Trump spewing nonsense isn’t helping. 
 

Here in BC we are starting to have more difficulties. Not enough being done as far as locking it down. Yesterday in Vancouver it was a beautiful day and people were out in droves well within the social distancing guidelines.  
 

I work for a government run liquor store and it’s madness in there with the business running like it’s a week before Christmas. I am very concerned as I’m dealing with more people and they aren’t following guidelines either. 
 

But our government while not perfect is farther ahead than the US is. I feel for everyone. Be safe  

I mean, we’re a federalist country. If people want to say executive agencies badly botched this then that’s fine, but the executive agencies would have botched it no matter who was in office because of the nature of bureaucracy in the United States. Could Trump act more like Cuomo? Sure. But exactly how responsible Trump is for the errors made by the CDC is greatly up for debate, which is exactly why executive agencies across the board widely need to their powers curtailed because they operate far too independently of the electorate and the executive. 

[rickshaw]

20 minutes ago, #freejame said:

I mean, we’re a federalist country. If people want to say executive agencies badly botched this then that’s fine, but the executive agencies would have botched it no matter who was in office because of the nature of bureaucracy in the United States. Could Trump act more like Cuomo? Sure. But exactly how responsible Trump is for the errors made by the CDC is greatly up for debate, which is exactly why executive agencies across the board widely need to their powers curtailed because they operate far too independently of the electorate and the executive. 

You’ve heard the country is behind and I’ve heard it. When I say Trump I say it because not matter who you support, he doesn’t like being told what to do. And there are reports he failed to act when he was warned a month earlier that this would become a pandemic.

Now nobody is handling  this properly let’s be clear but arrogance from ANYONE does not have a place during these situations. Politics needs to be removed and professional medical and science people need to be listened to. Had the doctor in China not been stifled and bullied by the government (he’s since died) this situation would be nowhere near a pandemic. I also believe the WHO were too slow on this.

But regarding Trump he was just asked if he would reach out to his predecessors before him and he again played the arrogance card saying he’s calling them if he feels one life could be saved but he doesn’t think that could happen. Come on!

Edited March 22, 2020 by rickshaw

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, rickshaw said:

You’ve heard the country is behind and I’ve heard it. When I say Trump I say it because not matter who you support, he doesn’t like being told what to do. And there are reports he failed to act when he was warned a month earlier that this would become a pandemic.

Now nobody is handling  this properly let’s be clear but arrogance from ANYONE does not have a place during these situations. Politics needs to be removed and professional medical and science people need to be listened to. Had the doctor in China not been stifled and bullied by the government (he’s since died) this situation would be nowhere near a pandemic. I also believe the WHO were too slow on this.

But regarding Trump he was just asked if he would reach out to his predecessors before him and he again played the arrogance card saying he’s calling them if he feels one life could be saved but he doesn’t think that could happen. Come on!

And there will be plenty of time for casting blame once this is behind us.  For now, I'm giving both 45 and Cuomo (because he's the governor of my state, those living in other states can evaluate their own leadership) passing grades on how they've handled this.  (The MAJOR governmental body that deserves blame for this is the Chinese Communist Party for covering it up for about a month.)

(Had more to add, but was afraid it would get labelled as political, so refrained from adding to this.)

[#freejame]

7 minutes ago, rickshaw said:

You’ve heard the country is behind and I’ve heard it. When I say Trump I say it because not matter who you support, he doesn’t like being told what to do. And there are reports he failed to act when he was warned a month earlier that this would become a pandemic.

Now nobody is handling  this properly let’s be clear but arrogance from ANYONE does not have a place during these situations. Politics needs to be removed and professional medical and science people need to be listened to. Had the doctor in China not been stifled and bullied by the government (he’s since died) this situation would be nowhere near a pandemic. I also believe the WHO were too slow on this.

But regarding Trump he was just asked if he would reach out to his predecessors before him and he again played the arrogance card saying he’s calling them if he feels one life could be saved but he doesn’t think that could happen. Come on!

That’s what I saying though—it’s not Trump who is responsible for the decline. We’ve got the 79th highest level of population density and the largest economy. There’s swathes of the country significantly less affected by others. The actions that have been taken are already crippling the economy, and if said actions were taken when the first case was reported things would only be worse. States have health agencies that were not prepared. That falls on State level governments. They should be the first responders. The CDC was very ineffective, and Trump is partially responsible for that. But the CDC was going to mess this up regardless of who is in office. 

[rickshaw]

Just now, Taro T said:

And there will be plenty of time for casting blame once this is behind us.  For now, I'm giving both 45 and Cuomo (because he's the governor of my state, those living in other states can evaluate their own leadership) passing grades on how they've handled this.  (The MAJOR governmental body that deserves blame for this is the Chinese Communist Party for covering it up for about a month.)

(Had more to add, but was afraid it would get labelled as political, so refrained from adding to this.)

Appreciate your opinion I’m just telling you my scientist buddy who is published and works with virologists and epidemiologists says the government dragged it’s heels on this. That’s all. Let’s hope we get through this.

I hope all realize that it’s far better being proactive than reactive and sadly that is where we ended up.

[#freejame]

55 minutes ago, rickshaw said:

Appreciate your opinion I’m just telling you my scientist buddy who is published and works with virologists and epidemiologists says the government dragged it’s heels on this. That’s all. Let’s hope we get through this.

I hope all realize that it’s far better being proactive than reactive and sadly that is where we ended up.

They didn’t drag their feet—they badly mismanaged every aspect of implementing. Whether it be contaminating samples or restricting access to only CDC manufactured testing material, that’s on the executive branch. Trump is not responsible for one individual within the CDC screwing up testing, the CDC and individual are responsible. Whether Trump is responsible for limiting private testing sources I’m not sure*.
 

South Korea used private industry to manufacture tests and only quarantined the high risk to limit economic impact. They’ve handled this the best, and their two greatest strengths have come from a government who understands the government isn’t always the best solution. Instead we’ve got states calling for martial law. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN2153BW

Edited March 23, 2020 by #freejame
Some of this is a misrepresentation and for that I apologize. The FDA and CDC took over five weeks to approve the first private test and CDC guidelines were against mass testing individuals. Not my intention to mislead or misrepresent.

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, rickshaw said:

Appreciate your opinion I’m just telling you my scientist buddy who is published and works with virologists and epidemiologists says the government dragged it’s heels on this. That’s all. Let’s hope we get through this.

I hope all realize that it’s far better being proactive than reactive and sadly that is where we ended up.

Fair enough.

Appreciate all the input.

But in fairness, in trying to find the right balance of proactivity vs reactivity, it can be a Herculean balancing act.

45 shut down travel to China in January and was criticized by everyone including the WHO.  He, in hindsight, should've shut down European travel as well and eventually did.  But at what time was that the right decision based on the info that he had at the time?

Testing was delayed, but to a non-trivial extent, that was due to bad test kits.

No doubt, there were other things that could've been done earlier as well; but with our federal system a lot of closures & the like fall to the individual states.

In my state, the governor left a lot of discretion to the individual counties until cases started exploding in NYC.  He's done a fairly good job on the closures, though finding out what exactly he considered "essential businesses" wasn't as straight forward as it might have been.  (A minor quibble all things considered.)

(Mods, if this post is too political, please feel free to move it to the politics club.)

[Weave]

22 minutes ago, #freejame said:

That’s what I saying though—it’s not Trump who is responsible for the decline. We’ve got the 79th highest level of population density and the largest economy. There’s swathes of the country significantly less affected by others. The actions that have been taken are already crippling the economy, and if said actions were taken when the first case was reported things would only be worse. States have health agencies that were not prepared. That falls on State level governments. They should be the first responders. The CDC was very ineffective, and Trump is partially responsible for that. But the CDC was going to mess this up regardless of who is in office. 

The CDC is headed by a Trump appointee with a background including an HIV trial so botched he was investigated criminally for it.  The failure's of the CDC are Trump failures, pure and simple.

[PerreaultForever]

10 minutes ago, Weave said:

The CDC is headed by a Trump appointee with a background including an HIV trial so botched he was investigated criminally for it.  The failure's of the CDC are Trump failures, pure and simple.

Calling nfreeman, time for you to send out a warning and threaten banning. He's being "political."

or does that only apply to people you personally don't like?

[#freejame]

23 minutes ago, Weave said:

The CDC is headed by a Trump appointee with a background including an HIV trial so botched he was investigated criminally for it.  The failure's of the CDC are Trump failures, pure and simple.

I understand that it’s an executive appointment, but do you think there’s been 100% turnover during this administration? Do you think there’s even been 100% turnover since 2000? Department heads hold a degree of responsibility, but much of the executive branch operates outside of the executive and operate as they please regardless of who is in office. The overwhelming majority of bureaucracy is staffed by career bureaucrats who care very little about who is in office. This is a problem regardless of who is in office or the department within the executive. 
 

Additionally, the issues experienced in the US as a result of the CDC were due to policies put in place before the Trump administration. 

Edited March 23, 2020 by #freejame

[#freejame]

15 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Calling nfreeman, time for you to send out a warning and threaten banning. He's being "political."

or does that only apply to people you personally don't like?

This is the kind of stuff that shuts down a thread. Everyone in here is being respectful and thoughtful. Comments like this are just toxic and do nothing to further discussion. This is about as apolitical a conversation can get about the executive branch and I feel everyone is choosing words very careful so we are able to continue the discussion. Knock this off so we can keep it that way. 

[Weave]

32 minutes ago, #freejame said:

I understand that it’s an executive appointment, but do you think there’s been 100% turnover during this administration? Do you think there’s even been 100% turnover since 2000? Department heads hold a degree of responsibility, but much of the executive branch operates outside of the executive and operate as they please regardless of who is in office. The overwhelming majority of bureaucracy is staffed by career bureaucrats who care very little about who is in office. This is a problem regardless of who is in office or the department within the executive. 
 

Additionally, the issues experienced in the US as a result of the CDC were due to policies put in place before the Trump administration. 

The head of the Executive Branch sets policy and sets tone.  We all know the tone that has been set in the press conferences to date.  Until this week they've not set a tone indicative that science has been a priority.

[#freejame]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

The head of the Executive Branch sets policy and sets tone.  We all know the tone that has been set in the press conferences to date.  Until this week they've not set a tone indicative that science has been a priority.

I think we’ve just got different beliefs on the power and authority of the bureaucracy and are now talking passed each other. Trump shares blame and rather than deny blame, should have taken full responsibility because he’s the executive and that’s what a strong leader does. However, I don’t believe any president has nearly as much control over the bureaucracy as the average American believes they do and believe the larger blame falls squarely on the bureaucracy.  

[triumph_communes]

59 minutes ago, #freejame said:

Additionally, the issues experienced in the US as a result of the CDC were due to policies put in place before the Trump administration. 

We don’t want facts. We want to be mad! 

[Ducky]

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56

A pretty good article.

It is time to shut things down not piss around.

 

I watched a bunch of video on Trump since this has started...you know,

thanking China for being so transparent about this from the beginning!

saying how he suggested they clean the masks and they are looking into this and they have started cleaning them and then a doctor came on and said he doesn't know what he is talking about and that anything that would sterilize them would ruin the material that filters!!!

"Anybody that wants a test can get a test. That's what the bottom line is."

"This is a very contagious -- this is a very contagious virus. It's incredible. But it's something that we have tremendous control of." -- March 15

"...I hear the numbers are getting much better in Italy." -- March 6 exchange with reporters after tour of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

 

He either doesn't listen to his advisors or he needs new ones.......just totally unbelievable.

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, #freejame said:

This is the kind of stuff that shuts down a thread. Everyone in here is being respectful and thoughtful. Comments like this are just toxic and do nothing to further discussion. This is about as apolitical a conversation can get about the executive branch and I feel everyone is choosing words very careful so we are able to continue the discussion. Knock this off so we can keep it that way. 

BS. I got a warning for posting my frustration with the early Trump response where I quoted your chief medical person. But some people get to say what they want and critique what they want cause they're part of the inner circle. It's total BS and a double standard and I'm simply pointing that out. 

Don't fret, I'm done. I was getting fed up with it ages ago but have tried to play nice. You want a closed little group where you have two tiers of posters have at it. It's a BS culture, just like that of the team. Figures. 

Just glad they closed the border, cause the U.S. response is about as dumb and useless as the moderation of this board. 

Bye. 

[Weave]

14 hours ago, #freejame said:

I think we’ve just got different beliefs on the power and authority of the bureaucracy and are now talking passed each other. Trump shares blame and rather than deny blame, should have taken full responsibility because he’s the executive and that’s what a strong leader does. However, I don’t believe any president has nearly as much control over the bureaucracy as the average American believes they do and believe the larger blame falls squarely on the bureaucracy.  

Leadership certainly does set the agenda.  It happens in every organization.  If it isn’t Trump setting agenda for CDC, than his appointee sure is.  And if the head of the CDC isn’t setting agenda and priorities why would Trump bother to replace these people when he came into office? (rhetorical)

It makes no sense whatsoever to separate Trumps appointments from responsibility for their subsequent performance.

And the idea that they were hamstrung by rules made under previous administrations doesn’t hold water either.  This is a Presidency well into its 3rd year, not a new President, and they had several months warning of what was coming to change the agenda and priorities of the CDC.  And we know our government was aware of the potential because several members made sure they profited from it.

The actions of the Chinese govt sure got us to the point of pandemic.  But the actions of this government ended up eerily similar to the Chinese govt actions.

[SABRES 0311]

16 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Calling nfreeman, time for you to send out a warning and threaten banning. He's being "political."

or does that only apply to people you personally don't like?

There’s a shot across the bow. Get in your fox holes boys we’re going to war.

[#freejame]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

Leadership certainly does set the agenda.  It happens in every organization.  If it isn’t Trump setting agenda for CDC, than his appointee sure is.  And if the head of the CDC isn’t setting agenda and priorities why would Trump bother to replace these people when he came into office? (rhetorical)

It makes no sense whatsoever to separate Trumps appointments from responsibility for their subsequent performance.

And the idea that they were hamstrung by rules made under previous administrations doesn’t hold water either.  This is a Presidency well into its 3rd year, not a new President, and they had several months warning of what was coming to change the agenda and priorities of the CDC.  And we know our government was aware of the potential because several members made sure they profited from it.

The actions of the Chinese govt sure got us to the point of pandemic.  But the actions of this government ended up eerily similar to the Chinese govt actions.

Like I said, we clearly have different views on the bureaucratic state. 

[Weave]

2 hours ago, #freejame said:

Like I said, we clearly have different views on the bureaucratic state. 

Ie. the deep state?

[#freejame]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

Ie. the deep state?

Personally I wouldn’t use terms like deep state and shadow government because they’re full of negative connotations. I also think that the majority of people who use those terms believe in something vastly different than myself and probably believe the bureaucratic state only negatively affects one party or group. I believe that regardless of party, the bureaucracy has more power than the average American understand and more power than they were ever constitutionally granted. Some of this is a direct result of congress giving away too many powers without appropriate limitations and some of it is a result of career bureaucrats working in the same agency without proper checks for twenty years. But it’s an issue and anyone who has studied political science either independently or academically since the Eisenhower administration can tell you as much, particularly the bolder. 

[triumph_communes]

Not being political

If you can pay off your student loan, do it ASAP.  The reality is, student loan forgiveness is a 3rd rail.  I have hope one day they cut interest rates to a nominal inflation factor, but nobody is going to have current loan balances forgiven without public service similar to the forms that already exist.  Maybe they go the extra mile and make college cheaper/free in the future (don't hold your breath, college is an industry).  The Democrats are virtue signaling with it hard right now, but it's ironic because it's an extremely regressive bandaid that personally affects every single person significantly in one way or another (skipped college being prudent, paid off loans early being prudent, forgone college 'life' being prudent, guess what- you're a fool!)  It just won't happen.  Pay off that student loan in full if you can.  The interest rates they charge are criminal.

[Brawndo]

8 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Why? I'd like to see the help be very targeted, but that might be practically impossible and doom any bill when they start debating how to do it. But there are families who are going to get $3,000 who don't really need it, businesses that are getting bailed out who could pull themselves up by their bootstraps, etc.

As @WildCard and @darksabre have mentioned, their biggest impediment to purchasing a house is student loan debt. Now multiply that by entire generation, which composes 22% of the US population and you would be opening up quite a bit of spending power to provide a boost to the economy over the next 12-18 months went it most needed. 
 

The stimulus bill is going to upset people when it passed either way. Why not help  as many people as possible? There will be income restrictions, starting at 100,000 which encompasses about 30% of the US Population. These measures would help the 70% of the population below this  income level. 
 

Corporations are going to get assistance whether we like it or not, I personally believe there should be huge restrictions placed on how they get to spend government hand outs, ie no stock buybacks or executive bonuses. 
 

 

[triumph_communes]

9 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

As @WildCard and @darksabre have mentioned, their biggest impediment to purchasing a house is student loan debt. Now multiply that by entire generation, which composes 22% of the US population and you would be opening up quite a bit of spending power to provide a boost to the economy over the next 12-18 months went it most needed. 
 

The stimulus bill is going to upset people when it passed either way. Why not help  as many people as possible? There will be income restrictions, starting at 100,000 which encompasses about 30% of the US Population. These measures would help the 70% of the population below this  income level. 
 

Corporations are going to get assistance whether we like it or not, I personally believe there should be huge restrictions placed on how they get to spend government hand outs, ie no stock buybacks or executive bonuses. 
 

 

You’re not wrong. But it’s a regressive proposal aimed at a key demographic. 

[darksabre]

20 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

As @WildCard and @darksabre have mentioned, their biggest impediment to purchasing a house is student loan debt. Now multiply that by entire generation, which composes 22% of the US population and you would be opening up quite a bit of spending power to provide a boost to the economy over the next 12-18 months went it most needed. 
 

The stimulus bill is going to upset people when it passed either way. Why not help  as many people as possible? There will be income restrictions, starting at 100,000 which encompasses about 30% of the US Population. These measures would help the 70% of the population below this  income level. 
 

Corporations are going to get assistance whether we like it or not, I personally believe there should be huge restrictions placed on how they get to spend government hand outs, ie no stock buybacks or executive bonuses. 
 

 

I could buy a house tomorrow if my student loan debt was eliminated.

At the very least I would have a lot more money to pump into the much vaunted "economy" so that all the wall street people could see their little chart go up.

They should consider doing it down the road if the economic shock ends up lasting longer than planned.

edit: I want to add that student loan debt is ultimately a symptom of a broken system. Higher education in the United States is completely out of whack given the supposed greatness of our nation. If we're truly the "greatest county in the world" we need to fix higher education at any cost. If we don't then we're just full of sh*t.

Edited March 24, 2020 by darksabre