Trade: Calgary Michael Frolik to Buffalo for a 4th

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, Thorny said:

Team has to believe he’s a potential difference maker for that “wow, the GM believes in us!” affect to take place.

Like trading for a 2nd line center perhaps?

[Thorny]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

Like trading for a 2nd line center perhaps?

Sure. I mean, the bottom 6ers probably look at Frolik and think, “great, but what can he do that we can’t?” 

Probably something along the lines of what Jack is thinking, anyways. 

[inkman]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Like trading for a 2nd line center perhaps?

Who are you trading?  Cuz Risto ain't getting it.  It's gonna have to be Cozens and/or 1st round picks.  That would only make this team's problems worse.  They need to hold onto draft capital and draft the right freaking players which Botterill still has the jury out on him.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

23 minutes ago, inkman said:

Who are you trading?  Cuz Risto ain't getting it.  It's gonna have to be Cozens and/or 1st round picks.  That would only make this team's problems worse.  They need to hold onto draft capital and draft the right freaking players which Botterill still has the jury out on him.  

That is completely wrong.  We aren’t getting a top 10 2C.  All we really need is someone to hold the job and perform at a mid level for the next few years until either Mitts or Cozens seize the job.  I’m looking at guys like Bonino and Henrique and they will come significantly cheaper help us wins draws, chip in some goals and give us a solid spine.

Bonino can likely be had for a prospect and a pick.  I also mentioned Henrique who could be had for about the same.  

[inkman]

3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

That is completely wrong.  We aren’t getting a top 10 2C.  All we really need is someone to hold the job and perform at a mid level for the next few years until either Mitts or Cozens seize the job.  I’m looking at guys like Bonino and Henrique and they will come significantly cheaper help us wins draws, chip in some goals and give us a solid spine.

Bonino can likely be had for a prospect and a pick.  I also mentioned Henrique who could be had for about the same.  

Most would argue those aren't 2C.  I'm drinking and listening to Rush so I'm not gonna.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, inkman said:

Most would argue those aren't 2C.  I'm drinking and listening to Rush so I'm not gonna.  

And they would be wrong.  https://theathletic.com/1515580/2020/01/07/how-marcus-johansson-compares-to-the-other-30-nhl-second-line-centers/
 

The Athletic did a whole comparison of the leagues’ 2Cs. MoJo is in the bottom 3rd with 6g 15a for 21pts.  Bonino and Henrique have 25 and 24 pts respectively each and unlike MoJo both are more goal scorers then playmaker (14g each) and both are at 54%+ in the faceoff circle.  MoJo sits at 37.9%.  Bonino’s and Henrique scoring would place them in the top 10 in goals per game of 2Cs.  The Article looked at other stats as well and has Henrique as the 13th ranked 2C.  

[Curt]

32 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

And they would be wrong.  https://theathletic.com/1515580/2020/01/07/how-marcus-johansson-compares-to-the-other-30-nhl-second-line-centers/
 

The Athletic did a whole comparison of the leagues’ 2Cs. MoJo is in the bottom 3rd with 6g 15a for 21pts.  Bonino and Henrique have 25 and 24 pts respectively each and unlike MoJo both are more goal scorers then playmaker (14g each) and both are at 54%+ in the faceoff circle.  MoJo sits at 37.9%.  Bonino’s and Henrique scoring would place them in the top 10 in goals per game of 2Cs.  The Article looked at other stats as well and has Henrique as the 13th ranked 2C.  

Bonino I would say is more of a high end 3C.  He is having a career year, points wise.

Henrique I would call a decent 2C.  I mean, he scores 20-25 goals every season.  What’s that?  A 3rd/4th liner?

Edited January 11, 2020 by Curt

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, Curt said:

Bonino I would say is more of a high end 3C.  He is having a career year, points wise.

Henrique I would call a decent 2C.  I mean, he scores 20-25 goals every season.  What’s that?  A 3rd/4th liner?

The bottom line is that both are significantly better then what we have.  They score and win faceoffs and both can be had for reasonable prices.  Jbot needs to get at least one.

[LGR4GM]

Just saw Frolic's goals above replacement compared to the rest of his former team. He is dead last. They traded dead weight and we bought it up. 

I don't think Botterill is good at evaluating offense talent. 

[triumph_communes]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Just saw Frolic's goals above replacement compared to the rest of his former team. He is dead last. They traded dead weight and we bought it up. 

I don't think Botterill is good at evaluating offense talent. 

His assignment on that team did him no favors.

The guy is a PK specialist who is good on the 2-way game.  Exactly the type of player we need, given that Vesey, Sheary, etc. all suck at that role.

Not even Jason said acquiring forwards is complete.  We always needed AT LEAST two new pieces.  A top-6 and a bottom-6.  Frolik is that bottom-6 piece.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Are we enjoying Sobotka 2?  So glad we dumped Scandella to the Canadians to get him.

[Doohickie]

I'm not seeing anything in Frolik.  He makes me pine for the days of Sobotka.

[apuszczalowski]

On 1/10/2020 at 8:50 PM, inkman said:

Who are you trading?  Cuz Risto ain't getting it.  It's gonna have to be Cozens and/or 1st round picks.  That would only make this team's problems worse.  They need to hold onto draft capital and draft the right freaking players which Botterill still has the jury out on him.  

This team has enough prospects and picks, they need to start using them to get players who can play now. You can't keep sitting back and letting seasons slip away because your waiting to have a lineup of all prospects and picks you drafted. And trading the deadweight from the roster isn't going to get you anywhere either. By the time the next group of prospects are ready, Jack's going to be looking for a new team and be half way out the door. If they want this team to start being competitive they may have to make a trade or 2 that will hurt a little in the picks/prospects department to get something of value that will improve the team today.

[PASabreFan]

Give him a chance?

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, apuszczalowski said:

This team has enough prospects and picks, they need to start using them to get players who can play now. You can't keep sitting back and letting seasons slip away because your waiting to have a lineup of all prospects and picks you drafted. And trading the deadweight from the roster isn't going to get you anywhere either. By the time the next group of prospects are ready, Jack's going to be looking for a new team and be half way out the door. If they want this team to start being competitive they may have to make a trade or 2 that will hurt a little in the picks/prospects department to get something of value that will improve the team today.

God this sounds shockingly familiar. I'm trying to remember what happened last time this was a popular refrain. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by LGR4GM

[Scottysabres]

44 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

God this sounds shockingly familiar. I'm trying to remember what happened last time this was a popular refrain. 

You got that right. I didn't like the Kane trade, the Gorges trade, the Vanek trade and that horrible McNabb / Fasching trade in the past 5 years or so. The ROR trade was pretty square up, ROR was a true worthy positional acquisition by Murray. Sounds like Pegula's unwillingness to pay the bonus made it a net negative on losing him.

But yea, losing all those assets hurt, combined, with what you point out often, inability to draft well. I agree with your overall view of the team by the way, hope that doesn't surprise you.

[apuszczalowski]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

God this sounds shockingly familiar. I'm trying to remember what happened last time this was a popular refrain. 

No, you're right, lets just wait it out a few more years for another couple drafts and some more prospects to develop.

Playing in an empty arena should make it easier for their development and really take the pressure off.

And I never said to get rid of all their picks and prospects, but using SOME to obtain quality players who can play in the league and help now is not going to hurt this team.

The plan has worked so well for them up to this point

I have said it many times before here about Murray, his problem wasnt that he used assets/capital to make moves, its that once he locked on to a player he wanted, he was like a little kid willing to pay anything to get it and grossly overpaid for players in situations he should have been able to steal the player from.

[Broken Ankles]

10 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Are we enjoying Sobotka 2?  So glad we dumped Scandella to the Canadians to get him.

He might be Vlad-lite.  So far his line has poor analytics (Cf/Ff/HD) and his Faceoffs aren’t as good as Vlad.   In his defense a high number  of def zone starts, and Vlad was buoyed by Jeff Skinner.   He has nowhere to go but up. 

[Doohickie]

8 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Give him a chance?

Sure.  I'm just saying, not seeing it yet.  A JAG is okay for bottom six I suppose, as long as he's better than whomever he's displacing.

22 minutes ago, Broken Ankles said:

He has nowhere to go but up. 

I hope this is true.

[LGR4GM]

8 hours ago, apuszczalowski said:

No, you're right, lets just wait it out a few more years for another couple drafts and some more prospects to develop.

Playing in an empty arena should make it easier for their development and really take the pressure off.

And I never said to get rid of all their picks and prospects, but using SOME to obtain quality players who can play in the league and help now is not going to hurt this team.

The plan has worked so well for them up to this point

I have said it many times before here about Murray, his problem wasnt that he used assets/capital to make moves, its that once he locked on to a player he wanted, he was like a little kid willing to pay anything to get it and grossly overpaid for players in situations he should have been able to steal the player from.

The exact plan that Tim Murray executed. 

The plan of drafting and developing hasn't worked because we have never tried it. We didn't even start trying anything close to it until... 2017. Sorry those 2017 picks haven't come in after 2 years. UPL, Laaksonen, Bryson, Davidsson are all a bunch of losers who clearly haven't worked hard enough. Mitts at least we could argue has been a disappointment and even then I think they rushed him. 

[shrader]

9 hours ago, Broken Ankles said:

He might be Vlad-lite.  So far his line has poor analytics (Cf/Ff/HD) and his Faceoffs aren’t as good as Vlad.   In his defense a high number  of def zone starts, and Vlad was buoyed by Jeff Skinner.   He has nowhere to go but up. 

That's the big one right here.  We'll know exactly what we have with this guy once Skinner and Olofsson are back.

[Weave]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

The exact plan that Tim Murray executed. 

The plan of drafting and developing hasn't worked because we have never tried it. We didn't even start trying anything close to it until... 2017. Sorry those 2017 picks haven't come in after 2 years. UPL, Laaksonen, Bryson, Davidsson are all a bunch of losers who clearly haven't worked hard enough. Mitts at least we could argue has been a disappointment and even then I think they rushed him. 

Developing players includes putting them into situations where they will succeed.  Not just on an individual level, but at a group level.  Just because GMTM moved picks and prospects doesn’t mean he was ignoring developing young players.  He was also trying to build an organization that would succeed, so the players developed skills and habits that would continue the success.  You can’t drop 20 kids into an organization that doesn’t have mid and late career players well populated  in it.

Obviously it wasn’t successful, but that is partially a function of “who”, not “what”. It was also a function of there not being enough of an organizational base to build from.  And that lack of base to build from would hamstring any rebuild.

 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Weave

[LGR4GM]

He traded the base. He gutted the base. Murray ***** us. 

[Weave]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

He traded the base. He gutted the base. Murray ***** us. 

The base got traded TO tank.

[Thorny]

If a true second line forward can be had for draft picks, a young player that will be here for the foreseeable future, you absolutely move the picks. Our best offensive player is in his prime right now, as is his wingman, and our 9 mil LW will soon be exiting it. We need the help now. You don't shy away from moving a pick that, if things go to plan, becomes a top 6 player in several years.  

When Murray was arguably trying to jumpstart the rebuild too soon, Jack was a rookie. It's a totally different situation now. Adding a ROR type player for a package like we paid the first time would be ideal timing. I'm not saying to toss away picks for older players, or expiring contracts. But for good win now players, absolutely. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by Thorny