Leafs Lunch

[Crusader1969]

Had the displeasure of listing to Leafs lunch here in Toronto this afternoon. Thought maybe they'd have some decent Sabres coverage.

The two hosts did a power ranking of the top 5 players under 25 in the Atlantic Division.  Guess who didn't make either list????

Every time Jack plays vs Toronto he is the best player on the ice, you'd think that might resonate with them????

Matthews was, of course, number 1 on both lists. 

What would your list look like? would anyone not have Jack in the top 2? He's possibly top 3 in the league at the moment, IMHO

 

[#freejame]

Top five in the Atlantic is pretty easy:

1. Matthews

2. Tavares

3. Marner

4. Reilly

5. Mats Sundin

not sure where Eichel would fit in there 

[LGR4GM]

Well in no particular order we have Pastrnak, Point, Eichel, Matthews, and whoever we want to argue for to include in the last spot. If I were ranking those 4 right now,

Eichel

Point

Pastrnak

Matthews

5th player. 

[nfreeman]

27 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Had the displeasure of listing to Leafs lunch here in Toronto this afternoon. Thought maybe they'd have some decent Sabres coverage.

The two hosts did a power ranking of the top 5 players under 25 in the Atlantic Division.  Guess who didn't make either list????

Every time Jack plays vs Toronto he is the best player on the ice, you'd think that might resonate with them????

Matthews was, of course, number 1 on both lists. 

What would your list look like? would anyone not have Jack in the top 2? He's possibly top 3 in the league at the moment, IMHO

 

Except that this has never been the case prior to this year.

This is a credibility-destroying assertion. 

[Doohickie]

26 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Guess who didn't make either list????

Not surprised.  With both the Bills and Sabres trying to claw their way into relevance, there will be a lag in recognition of their best players.  The way I see it, the recognition is nice, but winning is what makes stars.  If the Bills and Sabres win, the accolades will come.

[Randall Flagg]

7 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Except that this has never been the case prior to this year.

This is a credibility-destroying assertion. 

I guess you weren't at the inaugural Sabrespace meetup game, in which the Sabres thrashed the playoff-bound Leafs on the back of a 2G, 1A night from Eichel. 

Or that you missed the quote from Babcock in a game between us last season, in which he said, directly, that Jack was "the best player on the ice tonight." 

He had 10 goals in his 13 games against the Leafs before this season. This is a 63 goal full-season pace.

I'm honestly stunned at how severely you have stated this given Jack's history against the Leafs. It's one of the three teams he routinely piles up points against and wins games on his own.

Edited December 17, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[Randall Flagg]

Jack's first game against the Leafs was unspectacular - I'm sure some remember it, as Kane got his first goal as a Sabre late in the third off of the left boards to tie the game at 1. We won it in a shootout. 

Jack's second game, later that spring, he scored the game tying goal in the third before a gorgeous Sam Reinhart takeaway on the forecheck, and feed to Kane, put us up. Jack was a +2 in that game, and was good, though was in a glut of players that are probably tied for best player in that game - all Sabres.

The next game, Eichel ate some bad grilled cheese - it was the only game he missed his rookie year, Nylander's coming out party, we lost 4-1. 

We stomped them in the last game of the season - it was the first instance of the Eichel head-fake-pass-to-slot on the power play, giving Cal O'Reilly one of his two goals in that game. He was again excellent, though the raw numbers of just one assist don't indicate a dominating performance that you're looking for. 

In his second year, he missed the first Leafs game with a high ankle sprain, and didn't factor into the second one. In the third one, he assisted on all three goals in a 3-1 victory and was a complete animal. Kane had two of the goals, but Eichel controlled that game all night long with the puck on his stick, giving his teammates shots from golden areas on the rush and off the faceoff. He was easily the best player in that game. 

In the fourth game that season, he went off. The game was back and forth, with Matthews tying it at 2 a couple minutes into the second. Not 25 seconds later, Jack uncorks a LASER, one of the best shots of his career, to beat McBackup, and take the lead again. Shortly after a wonderful play on the boards forechecking, demonstrating his superior strength in an awesome puck battle right in front of True and I, gives him an assist on the 4th goal from Kulikov, and he scores again later in the period, punching the glass in front of the Leafs fans. Without a doubt, the best skater to play in that game. That's twice in the four games that season in which he was clearly the best player. In the last one, he scored one of our two goals, but the Leafs thrashed a Sabres team running for the bus. 

In 2017-18, the Sabres were awful. They split the Leafs games, two regulation wins each. Eichel missed the 5-3 victory with an injury. He missed the second game as well, a 5-2 defeat. In the 3-2 victory that followed, he was back, and scored our first goal in the game, and the game winner in the third, both on tremendous rushes/efforts. On the winner, Pominville flipped the puck behind Zaitsev at center ice, Jack destroyed him to the outside on the race, and shoveled it past Freddy single-handedly. It was the birth of the "WOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooo" echoing through the hushed Scotiabank Arena, that he now employs regularly. He was indeed the best skater for either team that night - a force in all zones. We lost the last meeting, in which he recorded no points, but was also on the ice for zero of the 5 Leaf goals. This was the first game vs. the Sabres in which Matthews outplayed all of his own teammates, much less our best ones. 

2018-19 was a fun one, because that first game in the Leafs was one of the best games the Sabres played all year even though they lost in OT, with Sobotka and Scandella on the ice defending Matthews (unsuccessfully) in the dying seconds of OT. It's the kind of game that nfreeman would instantly give to Matthews, no questions asked, because of the result, even though Eichel controlled the game in regulation from start to finish and Ristolainen completely neutralized that line outside of one shift in which Auston carried/threw the puck about 14 feet to give himself a free wraparound goal. Eichel also had 2 goals, including tying the game late in the 3rd, took 8 shots on goal, and was a plus 3 in regulation while his line neutralized Auston's and Tavares'. Eichel was better all game, and then coaching gave Matthews the freebee at the end.

The next game last season Jack again dominated with 2 goals, but Hutton was beyond pathetic in giving up 3 quick ones to the Leafs, from goofy angles and funky bounces, getting pulled for Ullmark. The Leafs got the game-sealer on the empty net. This game is the one after which Babcock remarked that Jack was the best player on the ice. He was right. 

Eichel was quiet-to-bad in the last 2 Leafs games of last year, as the team collapsed. He has regained his form this season, dominating the first meeting (I didn't see the second one). 

By my count, Eichel has been the clear best player in Leafs-Sabres games six times in his 15 meetings, and has played great games/been tied with the best a handful more, with a couple of stinkers. Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Kane, Reinhart have all had their time in the spotlight, but none of them have racked up HALF of Jack's 6. Leafs fans are WELL aware of this tendency, and for years their GDT has been a conglomeration of "I ***** HATE Eichel" "why does Eichel always destroy this team" etc. that I spend hours and hours reading with a smile on my face

Edited December 17, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[nfreeman]

30 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I guess you weren't at the inaugural Sabrespace meetup game, in which the Sabres thrashed the playoff-bound Leafs on the back of a 2G, 1A night from Eichel. 

Or that you missed the quote from Babcock in a game between us last season, in which he said, directly, that Jack was "the best player on the ice tonight." 

He had 10 goals in his 13 games against the Leafs before this season. This is a 63 goal full-season pace.

I'm honestly stunned at how severely you have stated this given Jack's history against the Leafs. It's one of the three teams he routinely piles up points against and wins games on his own.

Say what?

The Sabres were 0-4 vs the Leafs last year, and 2-2 the prior year (with those 2 wins occurring in true garbage time -- March 5 and March 26).

In the Sabres' four losses to the Leafs last year, Matthews had better #s in 3 of them.

In the prior year, Matthews missed 2 of the 4 games.  In the 2 that he played, each of them had better #s in 1 of the games (and the teams split the 2).

[Randall Flagg]

Just now, nfreeman said:

Say what?

The Sabres were 0-4 vs the Leafs last year, and 2-2 the prior year (with those 2 wins occurring in true garbage time -- March 5 and March 26).

In the Sabres' four losses to the Leafs last year, Matthews had better #s in 3 of them.

In the prior year, Matthews missed 2 of the 4 games.  In the 2 that he played, each of them had better #s in 1 of the games (and the teams split the 2).

See above. 

[Randall Flagg]

For some reason, with no exaggeration, I have vivid memory of every Sabres-Leafs game I've ever watched 

[...]

When @Randall Flaggmakes a point, it goes something like this:

[GASabresIUFAN]

Top 5 forwards in the AtL. Marchand, Kucherov, Eichel, Patranak and Barkov.

[Doohickie]

16 minutes ago, ... said:

When @Randall Flaggmakes a point, it goes something like this:

Whoa whoa whoa, Randall.... take it easy!

[nfreeman]

23 minutes ago, ... said:

When @Randall Flaggmakes a point, it goes something like this:

 

Throwing a million words at a dispute is not equivalent to curb-stomping the other side.

I appreciate @Randall Flagg's passion on this, but breaking down his latest opus reveals:

- He omitted the fact that Matthews didn't play in Eichel's 1st year -- so the warm recollections of Jack's rookie year games vs the Leafs are neither here nor there.

- He omitted, in almost all of his reminisces about Jack's performances, the deets of Matthews' performances in those games -- a highly relevant matter since the whole question here is whether Matthews has been better although Jack has been good.

- His glossing over the fact that in the year before last, there were 2 games in which Matthews and Eichel both played, both of which occurred in garbage time, and which were split in both wins and the Eichel-Matthews showdown.

As for the games last year, while randall is certainly entitled to his opinions, blithe assertions that Eichel was better is not the same as his actually being better. 

In any case, the first game between the 2 teams, a 4-3 OT loss in early December, was IMHO the best game between the 2 teams since the 2 stars arrived.  Both guys were awesome and dangerous and scored 2 goals (although as randall notes, Matthews closed his hand on the puck and carried it around the net before scoring it on a play that should've been penalized), and Eichel rose to the occasion -- but Matthews also had an assist and the GWG in OT.  Again, Randall may think Jack was better than Matthews in that game, but I thought Matthews was better by a hair.

In the 2nd game last year, a 5-3 loss in late February, when the Sabres were dropping like a stone but still only 2 games under DeLuca .500, the Sabres took a 1-0 lead on Eichel's PPG -- but then gave up 4 in the 2nd period (the 2nd of which was by Matthews) and the game was effectively over.  Eichel had 2 goals but was on the ice for 2 goals against, while Matthews had 1 goal and was on the ice for zero goals against.  That is far from "Jack dominated" -- no matter how much we'd like it to be the case.

As randall quickly mentions, Matthews and the Leafs clearly were better in the 3rd and 4th games last year.

Now, I agree that Jack has been better this year, and I sho 'nuff hope that continues.  But we need to deal in facts around here.

[PASabreFan]

22 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Whoa whoa whoa, Randall.... take it easy!

I mean, I got in there to stop it. Eventually.

[Crusader1969]

34 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Top 5 forwards in the AtL. Marchand, Kucherov, Eichel, Patranak and Barkov.

their list was under 25, to be fair to them

Think both lists included Marner, Matthews (#1), Barkov and Pastarnak   

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

their list was under 25, to be fair to them

Think both lists included Marner, Matthews (#1), Barkov and Pastarnak   

Jack, Pastrnak, Barkov, Matthews, and probably Marner.

[spndnchz]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

Say what?

The Sabres were 0-4 vs the Leafs last year, and 2-2 the prior year (with those 2 wins occurring in true garbage time -- March 5 and March 26).

In the Sabres' four losses to the Leafs last year, Matthews had better #s in 3 of them.

In the prior year, Matthews missed 2 of the 4 games.  In the 2 that he played, each of them had better #s in 1 of the games (and the teams split the 2).

Team success vs Eichel success 

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Had the displeasure of listing to Leafs lunch here in Toronto this afternoon. Thought maybe they'd have some decent Sabres coverage.

The two hosts did a power ranking of the top 5 players under 25 in the Atlantic Division.  Guess who didn't make either list????

Every time Jack plays vs Toronto he is the best player on the ice, you'd think that might resonate with them????

Matthews was, of course, number 1 on both lists. 

What would your list look like? would anyone not have Jack in the top 2? He's possibly top 3 in the league at the moment, IMHO

 

Who were the 5 guys under 25 listed as being better than Jack?? Seems pretty ridiculous. 

Also, you mentioned 2 lists, what was the other one? 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Thorny

[Huckleberry]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

 

Throwing a million words at a dispute is not equivalent to curb-stomping the other side.

I appreciate @Randall Flagg's passion on this, but breaking down his latest opus reveals:

- He omitted the fact that Matthews didn't play in Eichel's 1st year -- so the warm recollections of Jack's rookie year games vs the Leafs are neither here nor there.

- He omitted, in almost all of his reminisces about Jack's performances, the deets of Matthews' performances in those games -- a highly relevant matter since the whole question here is whether Matthews has been better although Jack has been good.

- His glossing over the fact that in the year before last, there were 2 games in which Matthews and Eichel both played, both of which occurred in garbage time, and which were split in both wins and the Eichel-Matthews showdown.

As for the games last year, while randall is certainly entitled to his opinions, blithe assertions that Eichel was better is not the same as his actually being better. 

In any case, the first game between the 2 teams, a 4-3 OT loss in early December, was IMHO the best game between the 2 teams since the 2 stars arrived.  Both guys were awesome and dangerous and scored 2 goals (although as randall notes, Matthews closed his hand on the puck and carried it around the net before scoring it on a play that should've been penalized), and Eichel rose to the occasion -- but Matthews also had an assist and the GWG in OT.  Again, Randall may think Jack was better than Matthews in that game, but I thought Matthews was better by a hair.

In the 2nd game last year, a 5-3 loss in late February, when the Sabres were dropping like a stone but still only 2 games under DeLuca .500, the Sabres took a 1-0 lead on Eichel's PPG -- but then gave up 4 in the 2nd period (the 2nd of which was by Matthews) and the game was effectively over.  Eichel had 2 goals but was on the ice for 2 goals against, while Matthews had 1 goal and was on the ice for zero goals against.  That is far from "Jack dominated" -- no matter how much we'd like it to be the case.

As randall quickly mentions, Matthews and the Leafs clearly were better in the 3rd and 4th games last year.

Now, I agree that Jack has been better this year, and I sho 'nuff hope that continues.  But we need to deal in facts around here.

Matthews has been ***** all year, Eichel is way ahead of him ? ? ?

One thing I love about Eichel, he loves scoring vs the leafs and bruins.

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

Who were the 5 guys under 25 listed as being better than Jack?? Seems pretty ridiculous. 

Also, you mentioned 2 lists, what was the other one?

Would expect that to be D-men under 25.  Where the Sabres should again be represented.

[Randall Flagg]

18 hours ago, nfreeman said:

 

Throwing a million words at a dispute is not equivalent to curb-stomping the other side.

I appreciate @Randall Flagg's passion on this, but breaking down his latest opus reveals:

- He omitted the fact that Matthews didn't play in Eichel's 1st year -- so the warm recollections of Jack's rookie year games vs the Leafs are neither here nor there.

- He omitted, in almost all of his reminisces about Jack's performances, the deets of Matthews' performances in those games -- a highly relevant matter since the whole question here is whether Matthews has been better although Jack has been good.

- His glossing over the fact that in the year before last, there were 2 games in which Matthews and Eichel both played, both of which occurred in garbage time, and which were split in both wins and the Eichel-Matthews showdown.

As for the games last year, while randall is certainly entitled to his opinions, blithe assertions that Eichel was better is not the same as his actually being better. 

In any case, the first game between the 2 teams, a 4-3 OT loss in early December, was IMHO the best game between the 2 teams since the 2 stars arrived.  Both guys were awesome and dangerous and scored 2 goals (although as randall notes, Matthews closed his hand on the puck and carried it around the net before scoring it on a play that should've been penalized), and Eichel rose to the occasion -- but Matthews also had an assist and the GWG in OT.  Again, Randall may think Jack was better than Matthews in that game, but I thought Matthews was better by a hair.

In the 2nd game last year, a 5-3 loss in late February, when the Sabres were dropping like a stone but still only 2 games under DeLuca .500, the Sabres took a 1-0 lead on Eichel's PPG -- but then gave up 4 in the 2nd period (the 2nd of which was by Matthews) and the game was effectively over.  Eichel had 2 goals but was on the ice for 2 goals against, while Matthews had 1 goal and was on the ice for zero goals against.  That is far from "Jack dominated" -- no matter how much we'd like it to be the case.

As randall quickly mentions, Matthews and the Leafs clearly were better in the 3rd and 4th games last year.

Now, I agree that Jack has been better this year, and I sho 'nuff hope that continues.  But we need to deal in facts around here.

The point of the post wasn't a Matthews-Eichel comparison, you silly goose. You said in no uncertain terms that Eichel was never the best player on the ice against the Leafs before this year. That was unequivocally wrong. You were unequivocally wrong, and I showed it, because I remember the games, and you just glanced at box scores. It's okay to admit it! You don't have to change the terms of the argument, and deflect from what you initially said that drew my response! I mean come on, your response here is borderline dishonest. The poster was talking Eichel vs. the Leafs, not Eichel vs. Matthews. You know he was, I know he was. You knew he was when you used some of the most decisive language you ever employ on this forum to shut him down, incorrectly.

BTW, Matthews is up to 3 now, unless you think he was outplayed by Marner or Tavares. I didn't watch closely enough to determine this. 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[nfreeman]

39 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

The point of the post wasn't a Matthews-Eichel comparison, you silly goose. You said in no uncertain terms that Eichel was never the best player on the ice against the Leafs before this year. That was unequivocally wrong. You were unequivocally wrong, and I showed it, because I remember the games, and you just glanced at box scores. It's okay to admit it! You don't have to change the terms of the argument, and deflect from what you initially said that drew my response! I mean come on, your response here is borderline dishonest. The poster was talking Eichel vs. the Leafs, not Eichel vs. Matthews. You know he was, I know he was. You knew he was when you used some of the most decisive language you ever employ on this forum to shut him down, incorrectly.

BTW, Matthews is up to 3 now, unless you think he was outplayed by Marner or Tavares. I didn't watch closely enough to determine this. 

Settle down young fella.  I've watched the games just like (presumably) you have -- so I don't think anyone should start throwing around words like "dishonest" and "just glanced at the box scores."

As for what seems to be your core point -- you are right that since the original assertion related to "every time Jack has played the Leafs," it is correct to include the games from Jack's rookie year.  I don't expect that anyone would really be interested in debating whether Jack was best before Matthews arrived, but if one wants to be a stickler, there you go.

IMHO the real issue is whether Jack has been better than Matthews, which is how I interpreted the original assertion.  And while I agree that you unleashed a torrent of verbiage in support of your position, I don't think you "unequivocally" demonstrated anything other than an unwillingness to face the reality that Matthews has been better -- as he was again last night.

 

[LGR4GM]

It's amazing how often posters who are disagreeing with you Nfreeman are told to settle down or chill or relax. Or told they are overreacting, acting out etc... 

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

The point of the post wasn't a Matthews-Eichel comparison, you silly goose. You said in no uncertain terms that Eichel was never the best player on the ice against the Leafs before this year. That was unequivocally wrong. You were unequivocally wrong, and I showed it, because I remember the games, and you just glanced at box scores. It's okay to admit it! You don't have to change the terms of the argument, and deflect from what you initially said that drew my response! I mean come on, your response here is borderline dishonest. The poster was talking Eichel vs. the Leafs, not Eichel vs. Matthews. You know he was, I know he was. You knew he was when you used some of the most decisive language you ever employ on this forum to shut him down, incorrectly.

BTW, Matthews is up to 3 now, unless you think he was outplayed by Marner or Tavares. I didn't watch closely enough to determine this. 

Yupppp

Edited December 18, 2019 by LGR4GM

[Crusader1969]

22 hours ago, Thorny said:

Who were the 5 guys under 25 listed as being better than Jack?? Seems pretty ridiculous. 

Also, you mentioned 2 lists, what was the other one? 

It was two commentators  one was the lady that usually hosts the show and not sure who the guy was

 

Matthews was #1 on both lists, Pastrnak, Marner and Barkov were also on both lists.. She had Vasilevskiy on her top 5. The guy had Point.