Erik Cernak Suspended Two Games For Concussing Dahlin

[inkman]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Will Borgen?  That is our answer?   Call up a rookie.  

Cernak is listed at 6’4” and 233 lbs.  

I give you Will Borgen vs Ryan MacInnis (6'3" 223 lbs).  

 

Sad isn't? But Will the thrill don't care bout dat. 

 

Edited November 27, 2019 by inkman

[Thorny]

6 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Delayed reaction: not surprisingly, the explanation of the suspension put out by the NHL carried more than a whiff of "blame the victim." Paraphrasing: "Cernak had already missed on an attempt to stick check Dahlin. Cernak then saw that Dahlin was about to skate by him and get to the front of the net." The audacity, Rasmus! And then to ram your head into Cernak's elbow!

Two games wasn't quite enough. But Cernak had no history, and it wasn't some rando, retaliatory hit totally away from the play. Maybe it should have been five. Really, what's the difference?

It's just dumb that you get more games for spitting than you do injuring someone. 

[Thorny]

17 hours ago, Tondas said:

This is a 19 year kid, 1st pick overall, future of the franchise, living in a new country, playing like a number 1 pick, getting an elbow to the face (whether legal or not), laying on the ice bleeding, and NO ONE does anything???? 

 

16 hours ago, inkman said:

Eh...

This doesn't change how they should have reacted but let's not act like he's Bobby Orr. 

What does any of that have to do with comparing him to Bobby friggen Orr? It's all true, factually. 

[PASabreFan]

1 hour ago, woods-racer said:

Swedish maid?

Please describe the outfit ?

There's a tuque and a feather duster. You can fill in the rest.

[SwampD]

2 games is fine. It’s what people get for this.

I’m just shocked he even had a hearing.

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, SwampD said:

2 games is fine. It’s what people get for this.

I’m just shocked he even had a hearing.

To me their system seems really flawed. As we know, they factor result in heavily, as opposed to action/intent. The fact a player gets injured factors heavily into the decision. Yet, had Cernak stopped and spat in Dahlin's face instead, he'd have gotten more. That would be all intent (intentionally unsportsmanlike) with zero result. 

It's all wonky. 

Edited November 27, 2019 by Thorny

[Weave]

35 minutes ago, SwampD said:

2 games is fine. It’s what people get for this.

I’m just shocked he even had a hearing.

Yeah, 2 games seems about normal to me.  I’d like the normal to be higher,  but this is a normal penalty for a 1st timer on a hit that could have been alot more predatory that it was.

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

 

What does any of that have to do with comparing him to Bobby friggen Orr? It's all true, factually. 

It's all your opinion actually.  I don't really dislike him but your insistence on backing him hell or high water only fuels me to go to greater lengths to push the anti-Dahlin agenda.  Even the twitter stats nerds are asking when the ***** are they going to sit him.  Guess they don't have to now...

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, inkman said:

It's all your opinion actually.  I don't really dislike him but your insistence on backing him hell or high water only fuels me to go to greater lengths to push the anti-Dahlin agenda.  Even the twitter stats nerds are asking when the ***** are they going to sit him.  Guess they don't have to now...

What part is opinion?

The bolded is also way off base. I've mentioned that he had been slumping multiple times. Sure I lean positive, but at least I am pointing out the bad. You literally only say negative things about the guy.

Dahlin had also been playing much better lately. Even when he was playing poorly, the twitter stats guys were decidedly AGAINST sitting him. "Won't help him work out of it" type thing. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Thorny

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

To me their system seems really flawed. As we know, they factor result in heavily, as opposed to action/intent. The fact a player gets injured factors heavily into the decision. Yet, had Cernak stopped and spat in Dahlin's face instead, he'd have gotten more. That would be all intent (intentionally unsportsmanlike) with zero result. 

It's all wonky. 

Discussing the NHL's disciplinary system is pointless.  It's beyond comprehension or rational thought.  

[SwampD]

32 minutes ago, Weave said:

Yeah, 2 games seems about normal to me.  I’d like the normal to be higher,  but this is a normal penalty for a 1st timer on a hit that could have been alot more predatory that it was.

And I bet if there was a penalty called on the play, there might not even have been a hearing.

[inkman]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

What part is opinion?

The bolded is also way off base. I've mentioned that he had been slumping multiple times. Sure I lean positive, but at least I am pointing out the bad. You literally only say negative things about the guy.

Sorry I expected the "best defensive prospect" since Orr to play like the best dman on the team let alone the league.  At this rate it will be 2025 before his play is more than "his analytics are great but holy *****".  

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, inkman said:

Sorry I expected the "best defensive prospect" since Orr to play like the best dman on the team let alone the league.  At this rate it will be 2025 before his play is more than "his analytics are great but holy *****".  

That's fine. Look I have no issue with you and your qualms in general but I was talking about the specific exchange in particular. It was a bunch of stuff about him being a number one overall pick, being 19, playing overseas, etc etc. There wasn't anything about "best d prospect since Orr" in it. 

"Future of the franchise" maybe being what you took issue with? I guess I just see that as him and Eichel, for better or worse, considering they are what we are building around. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Thorny

[#freejame]

I was thinking it was going to be three games. Two games doesn’t bother me. The NHL shouldn’t be considering who was the victim nor should it be considering an injury. A play is either illegal or it is not, injury doesn’t matter. Cernak hasn’t been suspended before, no need to go overboard. You’ll never take an elbow that that or certain knees out of the game when they’re half instinctual. 

[inkman]

18 minutes ago, Thorny said:

That's fine. Look I have no issue with you and your qualms in general but I was talking about the specific exchange in particular. It was a bunch of stuff about him being a number one overall pick, being 19, playing overseas, etc etc. There wasn't anything about "best d prospect since Orr" in it. 

"Future of the franchise" maybe being what you took issue with? I guess I just see that as him and Eichel, for better or worse, considering they are what we are building around. 

It was "playing like a 1st overall pick".  I have higher expectations.  I'll elaborate further during the intermission. 

[Thorny]

15 minutes ago, inkman said:

It was "playing like a 1st overall pick".  I have higher expectations.  I'll elaborate further during the intermission. 

I think we'd be hard pressed to find a number 1 overall D man who's had a better start to his young career than Dahlin, slump notwithstanding. 

Expanding to non-first overalls, I mean no one in decades did what Dahlin did at 18, demonstrably. Dahlin is better than Karlsson was at this age. Takes D-men some time. 

No, he's not Connor McDavid. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Thorny

[Randall Flagg]

I get inkman's sentiment. It seems like all the top picks we get just aren't quite the same as the top picks we see other teams get. 

We did "better" in our 2013-15 tanks than the Oilers did, and yet Eichel and Reinhart are a shadow of what McD and Draisaitl do together. Dahlin's impact on NHL ice is nothing like that of Matthews, McDavid, MacKinnon. 

Though Eichel/Reinhart/Dahlin are more normal in that regard, while the guys taken all around ours are generally the exceptions. 

[Thorny]

7 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I get inkman's sentiment. It seems like all the top picks we get just aren't quite the same as the top picks we see other teams get. 

We did "better" in our 2013-15 tanks than the Oilers did, and yet Eichel and Reinhart are a shadow of what McD and Draisaitl do together. Dahlin's impact on NHL ice is nothing like that of Matthews, McDavid, MacKinnon. 

Though Eichel/Reinhart/Dahlin are more normal in that regard, while the guys taken all around ours are generally the exceptions. 

Come on Randall. Dahlin WAS the exception last year. Dahlin was more exceptional as a rookie than Matthews and MacKinnon were, comparing what he did at that age to other D-men, and what those two forwards did relative to what other forwards have done at that age. We have to compare him to other Dmen taken in that spot, it's not usually a fair comparison with forwards. 

If we want to talk his slump this season, sure, and I get Ink's frustrations there. I just don't have any worry that it's an anomaly, considering the sample size. 

But Dahlin's rookie year was far from normal. It was historic, statistically. Let's compare him to Ekblad. Or Seth Jones at the same age. Hedman, Karlsson. All of it. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Thorny

[Randall Flagg]

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Come on Randall. Dahlin WAS the exception last year. Dahlin was more exceptional as a rookie than Matthews and MacKinnon were, comparing what he did at that age to other D-men, and what those two forwards did relative to what other forwards have done at that age. We have to compare him to other Dmen taken in that spot, it's not usually a fair comparison with forwards. 

If we want to talk his slump this season, sure, and I get Ink's frustrations there. I just don't have any worry that it's an anomaly, considering the sample size. 

But Dahlin's rookie year was far from normal. It was historic, statistically. Let's compare him to Ekblad. Or Seth Jones at the same age. Hedman, Karlsson. All of it. 

The position wrinkle taken into account, yeah. But the other guys were on highlight reels and in award discussions, not the Calder, at this point. That's what I mean by NHL impact

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

The position wrinkle taken into account, yeah. But the other guys were on highlight reels and in award discussions, not the Calder, at this point. That's what I mean by NHL impact

Was MacKinnon? I don't think so. Matthews for what, the rocket I guess. Dahlin made the highlight reel last year on more than one occasion, and the position wrinkle undoubtedly has it's part, there, too. 

Dahlin had more points his rookie year than MacKinnon had year 2. 

We'll have to see with regards to Dahlin's health this year, but if he had stayed healthy, he was going to have more points through his first two seasons, as a D, than Nathan MacKinnon did as a forward. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Thorny

[inkman]

4 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I think we'd be hard pressed to find a number 1 overall D man who's had a better start to his young career than Dahlin, slump notwithstanding. 

Expanding to non-first overalls, I mean no one in decades did what Dahlin did at 18, demonstrably. Dahlin is better than Karlsson was at this age. Takes D-men some time. 

No, he's not Connor McDavid. 

Lets look at the Dman drafted near (not even necessarily number 1 overall) the top

2017 (4) Cale Makar - Front Runner (?) for rookie of the year

2015 (8) Zach Werenski - 50 point franchise Dman

2014 (1) Aaron Ekblad - Stud franchise Dman

2009  (2) Victor Hedman - A player I don't think Dahlin will ever come close to

2009 (6) Oliver Ekman-Larsson - Franchise Dman 

2008 (2) Drew Doughty - My God

2003 (7) Ryan Suter - Please

None of these guys had half the hype Rasmus did and most will likely overshadow his career.   I know a couple of these guys really struggled early on, Hedman comes to mind but we were told Dahlin was twice the player of all these guys.  The next Nick Lidstrom.  So far I see a guy who makes a few nifty plays a game and then barfs all over himself a half dozen times in those same 60 minutes.  

[Randall Flagg]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Was MacKinnon? I don't think so. Matthews for what, the rocket I guess. Dahlin made the highlight reel last year on more than one occasion, and the position wrinkle undoubtedly has it's part, there, too. 

Dahlin had more points his rookie year than MacKinnon had year 2. 

MacKinnon was closer to a superstar forward his rookie year than Dahlin was a Norris defenseman, by a fair amount. Though MacKinnon's trajectory is certainly a reality check. 

If you can't tell the feeling I'm talking about, can't feel the difference between Dahlin's rookie year and those other guys', we can't really get anywhere with this discussion. I'm not assigning much value to these differences because those guys are exceptions and Dahlin plays D, but the sentiment is a real feeling and incredibly frustrating for fans of a team that lost for 5 years and tried to collect high end talent while doing so 

[Thorny]

Just now, inkman said:

Lets look at the Dman drafted near (not even necessarily number 1 overall) the top

2017 (4) Cale Makar - Front Runner (?) for rookie of the year

2015 (8) Zach Werenski - 50 point franchise Dman

2014 (1) Aaron Ekblad - Stud franchise Dman

2009  (2) Victor Hedman - A player I don't think Dahlin will ever come close to

2009 (6) Oliver Ekman-Larsson - Franchise Dman 

2008 (2) Drew Doughty - My God

2003 (7) Ryan Suter - Please

None of these guys had half the hype Rasmus did and most will likely overshadow his career.   I know a couple of these guys really struggled early on, Hedman comes to mind but we were told Dahlin was twice the player of all these guys.  The next Nick Lidstrom.  So far I see a guy who makes a few nifty plays a game and then barfs all over himself a half dozen times in those same 60 minutes.  

Dude no.

Makar is THREE years older than Dahlin year 1. 

Werenski? Really? Dahlin matched his rookie total, at a year younger. Werenski has regressed since

Ekblad? Dahlin with the way better start.

This list is weird. 

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

MacKinnon was closer to a superstar forward his rookie year than Dahlin was a Norris defenseman, by a fair amount. Though MacKinnon's trajectory is certainly a reality check. 

If you can't tell the feeling I'm talking about, can't feel the difference between Dahlin's rookie year and those other guys', we can't really get anywhere with this discussion. I'm not assigning much value to these differences because those guys are exceptions and Dahlin plays D, but the sentiment is a real feeling and incredibly frustrating for fans of a team that lost for 5 years and tried to collect high end talent while doing so 

You have to accept that your view here, (as well as mine) has a great deal of subjectivity to it. 

You are saying "can't feel the difference" as if it's an objective fact. The reality of the situation is that, by plenty of metrics, Dahlin's rookie year was exceptional. Ignoring the relativity of the position, ignoring the context, takes meaning away from the situation and obscures the truth in this case. Only Housley ever had more points at 18 than Dahlin did. That is history making stuff. You are going to have to accept that people were able to experience Dahlin's rookie season as every bit as exceptional as that of MacKinnon and Matthews. 

Dahlin's rookie year definitely felt special to me, and on par with those other guys. He was doing historic things 18 year old d men do not do. It's ok if you felt different. You've already admitted you weren't as high on him as others. Even if you disagree, and that's totally valid, viewing his rookie year as special and comparable to those other players is also valid. 

I don't agree with the "can't get anywhere with this discussion" bit. Why not? All it takes is admitting that both views are reasonable here. If you can't pick apart Ink's list, you aren't trying. 

- - - 

Like, using OEL as a comparison for that argument? People realize Dahlin matched that "franchise defenceman"' in his prime OEL's production at age 27 last season, last year, at age 18, right? And are we expecting him to be Doughty and Suter immediately? I don't even understand what's going on. 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Thorny

[Thorny]

17 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

MacKinnon was closer to a superstar forward his rookie year than Dahlin was a Norris defenseman, by a fair amount. Though MacKinnon's trajectory is certainly a reality check. 

If you can't tell the feeling I'm talking about, can't feel the difference between Dahlin's rookie year and those other guys', we can't really get anywhere with this discussion. I'm not assigning much value to these differences because those guys are exceptions and Dahlin plays D, but the sentiment is a real feeling and incredibly frustrating for fans of a team that lost for 5 years and tried to collect high end talent while doing so 

But rookie forwards are close to superstars faaaaaaaaaaar more often than rookie D are close to being Norris contenders. You are ignoring the relativity again.