GDT 11/25 Sabres @ Lightning 7pm et. Msg-b

[SwampD]

10 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

This conversation is why I want Reinhart traded ?We can use a different type of player with his cap-hit/value.

 

Cozens is a big body talent, he will be helpful as he grows up.  Kane was a hot-head and didn't help himself at all.  All our other forwards have been small or play small.  Girgensons and Larsson aren't big hitters.

And yet, Reinhart is often the first and sometimes only Sabre to react to these type of things.

1 minute ago, Getpucksdeep said:

I want to join this line of thinking, I really do.  And I do think he's trying, but I don't think he is/was a born leader.  He's elite talent and big ego, and work ethic, and wants to be the guy, but again that doesn't make him a leader.  Drop the gloves, or throw a big hit, or get emotional on the bench in support of your teammates. Instead it's the woe-is-me body language back to the bench.  And re: accountability - it's the turnovers (5th goal last night) and lazy back checks (improving there) I'm talking about.  re: stuff - it's relationships with his teammates, building bonds.  Of course I don't know if they are there or not, but based on the product on the ice I'm guessing not.

He has done all of those things, including dropping the gloves. It didn’t work. No one cares.

[LGR4GM]

16 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

This conversation is why I want Reinhart traded ?We can use a different type of player with his cap-hit/value.

 

Cozens is a big body talent, he will be helpful as he grows up.  Kane was a hot-head and didn't help himself at all.  All our other forwards have been small or play small.  Girgensons and Larsson aren't big hitters.

You explain to me how you are going to get his production from the new player and sure. Short of trading for Brady Tkachuk I don't see that happening. So in the end we are attempting to fix 1 problem while creating another or in this case worsening another. Trading Reinhart for a player that produces less but will punch somebody doesn't really help us overall. It just satisfies our desires to connect on some level with this team. 

[nucci]

12 hours ago, darksabre said:

I'm tired of it. May, Ray and Barnaby wouldn't have stood for this. Mike Peca wouldn't have stood for this. 

We just have to face it: being a Buffalo Sabre is devoid of meaning.

this is what happens when you lose on purpose.

[Torpedo Forecheck]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

First, you can't get rid of Okposo. Second, Miller plays defense. 

I am fine with ditching Erod, Zemgus, Larsson and adding grittier players but what I mean by my comment is that this team doesn't react because they aren't a team. They are a bunch of individuals who happen to play hockey together. You can add some of those guys you mention but this stuff will still go on. 

It needs to be a team mentality to not allow it is my point. 

First, I'm speaking hypothetically not literally, when I say Okposo and Miller you think contract and defense. I think these types of guys and what they don't bring to the table is why I would replace them. When I talk about Miller, he's in and out of lineup and I'd rather have a rugged defenseman, personal opinion. If you are going to replace guys with more grit and edge, it has to be these types of guys...You're not replacing Eichel, Skinner ,Dahlin etc.

I don't disagree that the team needs to react, but it is  a chicken/egg problem. The team may react better, with support from the right guys. Some of these guys playing, may have no idea what a response should be like. To be clear, I'm not advocating bench clearing brawls and that nonsense. But, guys play tougher when they know they have guys who have their backs. The Cernaks of the world, respond differently to whether running at Eichel or Dahlin is a good idea, when if at every whistle or scrum there is a "pain in the ass" to be paid. Or your ass gets kicked.

I'm not a contract expert and an analytics expert. These can be useful, I'm trying to learn more about them and I'm all for anything that works.

I do have a ton of experience playing, coaching, scouting etc. which has value in and of itself.   And, one thing I know for sure, is we are rapidly getting a rep as a " soft" team and that sitcks to you. The last time we played Tampa, Cernak was perfectly happy going after Jack. And now this!

Having said this, I have no confidence this front office can figure it out. Putting together a team so sorely lacking in some areas is baffling to me.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Torpedo Forecheck

[Torpedo Forecheck]

1 hour ago, Getpucksdeep said:

I want to join this line of thinking, I really do.  And I do think he's trying, but I don't think he is/was a born leader.  He's elite talent and big ego, and work ethic, and wants to be the guy, but again that doesn't make him a leader.  Drop the gloves, or throw a big hit, or get emotional on the bench in support of your teammates. Instead it's the woe-is-me body language back to the bench.  And re: accountability - it's the turnovers (5th goal last night) and lazy back checks (improving there) I'm talking about.  re: stuff - it's relationships with his teammates, building bonds.  Of course I don't know if they are there or not, but based on the product on the ice I'm guessing not.

Nah. This is the logic that people take sometimes when the team isn't going well. The star is the problem they say! Why is it limited to the generational talent and the "body language"? Dropping his gloves when no one else would is bad "body language".

I can't tell you how many things I disagree with in the bolded. I would hope he has a big ego, usually the stars do!. And its a problem wanting to be the guy and the leader? Would you be happier if he didn't want to? Come on.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Torpedo Forecheck

[Wyldnwoody44]

I missed the game completely, I left work around 930ish turned on wgr and heard we lost 5-2.shut off wgr

 

Came to SS, and now my heart has sunken, this team, simply cannot continue. Period. 

What we have hasn't and isn't working at all, and a change is needed (something). 

Serious question, how long before the true fans get so fed up that they stop paying attention, before this arena looks like a panthers game

[CallawaySabres]

https://www.buffalorising.com/2019/11/gutless-and-incompetent-your-same-old-sabres/#disqus_thread

[Cascade Youth]

1 hour ago, SwampD said:

He has done all of those things, including dropping the gloves. It didn’t work. No one cares.

If Eichel was the kind of leader this team needs, he'd be organizing a players-only meeting today to discuss what has been going on out there.  He'd call out Hutton in that meeting, along with others (and himself).  If he does that, I'll consider changing my mind about him.  But I doubt he does.

[Zamboni]

Just now, Cascade Youth said:

If Eichel was the kind of leader this team needs, he'd be organizing a players-only meeting today to discuss what has been going on out there.  He'd call out Hutton in that meeting, along with others (and himself).  If he does that, I'll consider changing my mind about him.  But I doubt he does.

So that’s the only way he’s a leader. So only one way to be a leader. Hmm interesting ...

I’m so glad we don’t have direct knowledge of what goes on in a Sabres locker room. Speculation and assumptions are much more entertaining ?

[Randall Flagg]

I only glanced at the 3rd period, with the volume off. Can someone describe the Hutton thing to me in detail?

[Doohickie]

19 minutes ago, Cascade Youth said:

If Eichel was the kind of leader this team needs, he'd be organizing a players-only meeting today

I think a players-only meeting is overdue.

[Randall Flagg]

When you see stars of the week, or month, or watch/listen to an NHL-centric show, you regularly hear about star players going on streaks of a lot of points in a small amount of games. Invariably this corresponds with their teams winning a lot of hockey games. If a good team is scoring normally except their star is doubling his usual rate, well, look for 10 wins in 12 games, stuff like that. 

It doesn't work that way for Jack. 

11 points in his last 6? Team is 2-4, only creating 4 goals without his hand in that span.
134 point pace for four weeks last December? team wins 4 of 13, scores 12 goals without Jack's help. 
97 point pace after injury recovery last season, over probably 6 or 7 weeks? Team wins 7 of 20. Not counting that many goals, sorry! 

It must be frustrating.

[Doohickie]

17 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I only glanced at the 3rd period, with the volume off. Can someone describe the Hutton thing to me in detail?

I don't know that Hutton was the problem per se, other than we outshot them almost 2-1 through two periods and took a 3-2 deficit into the third.  During the third, the Sabres allowed a breakaway and a 2-on-1 during a powerplay, and the Bolts scored on both... Huts looked like Robin Lehner in a shootout on both plays.

On the first three goals though, I wouldn't say Huts was particularly soft.  He just didn't make the saves.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Doohickie

[Randall Flagg]

2 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I don't know that Hutton was the problem per se, other than we outshot them almost 2-1 through two periods and took a 3-2 deficit into the third.  During the third, the Sabres allowed a breakaway and a 2-on-1 during a powerplay, and the Bolts scored on both... Huts looked like Robin Lehner in a shootout on both plays.

On the first three goals though, I wouldn't say Huts was particularly soft.  He just didn't make the saves.

There appears to be something more, though - something to do with when they pulled him. 

[miles]

18 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I only glanced at the 3rd period, with the volume off. Can someone describe the Hutton thing to me in detail?

When he was pulled for an extra skater, he skated off so slow, without any energy or urgency at all. He was skating like he was on a date and looking to get a kiss from a sweetheart 

[Doohickie]

7 minutes ago, miles said:

When he was pulled for an extra skater, he skated off so slow, without any energy or urgency at all. He was skating like he was on a date and looking to get a kiss from a sweetheart 

I didn't catch that.

[triumph_communes]

2 hours ago, SwampD said:

And yet, Reinhart is often the first and sometimes only Sabre to react to these type of things.

Isn't it so cute when he huffs up?

[triumph_communes]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

You explain to me how you are going to get his production from the new player and sure. Short of trading for Brady Tkachuk I don't see that happening. So in the end we are attempting to fix 1 problem while creating another or in this case worsening another. Trading Reinhart for a player that produces less but will punch somebody doesn't really help us overall. It just satisfies our desires to connect on some level with this team. 

I don't want a pugilist.  I want somebody who makes opposing defenders get weak in the knees while he's forechecking.  One game ago we had Montour with the best forechecking pressure out of one of our forwards all year turn into a fortuitous bounce--- and he doesn't even play forward.  Skinner confuses defenders into mistakes, but nobody is causing any defender to tense up.  Reinhart and Oloffson on Jack's wing especially.

[LGR4GM]

5 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

I don't want a pugilist.  I want somebody who makes opposing defenders get weak in the knees while he's forechecking.  One game ago we had Montour with the best forechecking pressure out of one of our forwards all year turn into a fortuitous bounce--- and he doesn't even play forward.  Skinner confuses defenders into mistakes, but nobody is causing any defender to tense up.  Reinhart and Oloffson on Jack's wing especially.

Again provide a solution. How does trading Sam Reinhart's 65 points off the team help us?

Edited November 26, 2019 by LGR4GM

[Zamboni]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Again provide a solution. How does trading Sam Reinhart's 65 points off the team help us?

I think that’s a chronic problem with some fans. Bigger than Sabrespace message board. Fans want a solution, but have no clue how to go about it logically and realistically. So it just boils down to fans making white noise and venting from frustration.

[Doohickie]

20 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Isn't it so cute when he huffs up?

The dude has bulked up considerably since his early years.

[Carmel Corn]

19 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

I don't want a pugilist.  I want somebody who makes opposing defenders get weak in the knees while he's forechecking.  One game ago we had Montour with the best forechecking pressure out of one of our forwards all year turn into a fortuitous bounce--- and he doesn't even play forward.  Skinner confuses defenders into mistakes, but nobody is causing any defender to tense up.  Reinhart and Oloffson on Jack's wing especially.

Why can't it be somebody who does BOTH?  Wouldn't that be the ideal type player we are trying to add?

[LGR4GM]

9 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

Why can't it be somebody who does BOTH?  Wouldn't that be the ideal type player we are trying to add?

Yes but that's a short list of names. I think of either of the Tkachuk boys and... that's roughly it. 

[...]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

There appears to be something more, though - something to do with when they pulled him. 

They nailed him actually three times in short order, and Tampa was smelling blood big time. Hutton was hanging his head just as Tampa had to leave the zone for something, and he wasn't watching the bench. So when they called him over, he clearly didn't feel there was a need for urgency, which there wasn't, because I guarantee you the conversation we were having here was the same conversation he was having with himself in his head.

[Kruppstahl]

51 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

I don't want a pugilist.  I want somebody who makes opposing defenders get weak in the knees while he's forechecking.  One game ago we had Montour with the best forechecking pressure out of one of our forwards all year turn into a fortuitous bounce--- and he doesn't even play forward.  Skinner confuses defenders into mistakes, but nobody is causing any defender to tense up.  Reinhart and Oloffson on Jack's wing especially.

Please.  Pugilists have been gone from the game for quite some time now.

What we need are "tough" players.  That doesn't have to mean they are throwing punches all the time, but that they will when they have to.  

Watch the Stanley Cup playoffs in any year and you will see who the tough players/teams are.  For the most part, they are the ones that go deep in the playoffs.  

The playoffs are a completely different sport to NHL regular season hockey and if you aren't tough, you go nowhere in the playoffs.

Unfortunately, Pittsburgh exists to throw a bit of a wrinkle into this, but they have been a weird outlier with 2 of the best 5 players in the world.  Or at least they used to be that way.  I think they are done winning Cups in the Crosby era anyway.

The perfectly conceived modern NHL playoff team, in my view, was the recent LA teams that won 2 Cups in the middle of a Chicago dynasty-dominated era.

The current Sabres team looks absolutely nothing like those LA teams.  Nothing.