Reinhart, sign him or trade him?

[I-90 W]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Something. Define something

How about a goalie? I doubt we’re going to be able to pay him what he wants long term if Hall works out and wants to stay here.

For Sam money I’d rather we try to make a trade with Vegas for Fleury and another forward or prospect.

Edited October 20, 2020 by I-90 W

[Scottysabres]

32 minutes ago, sweetlou said:

Given the circumstances of this off season, KA should tell Sam we are going to give you one year at $5.5 AAV.  See where he fits in when the team has other talented players. 

Either trade him next off season or sign him to a longer contract.  

Sounds reasonable.

However, I believe the clock has struck midnight on Sam. I don't believe he'll be a Sabres when the season starts to be honest, and here is my reasoning......

Olofsson, although a lefty, can play the right side, is surely going to be a cheaper contract and can be signed with 2 or 3 years of term (we'll get to why the term is important in a moment)l

Given the rumored trade talks with Calgary from one of our own board members who has called information correctly in the recent past, I believe a top 6 forward and goalie were the topics of discussion?, I do not believe Gaudreau or Monahan were the forwards targeted by the Sabres, I believe it is Lindholm, and the reason is simple, he's a right handed shot, same as Sam, only, on a reasonable contract, and I believe Rittich is the goalie. Buffalo would be sending one of their RHD's I suspect as well. An actual Hockey trade, a top line RW and a 3/4 RHD for a top line RW and a goalie.

I can see this happening, and here is my reasoning mentioned above, Buffalo is drafting right hand shot RW's, sign Olofsson to a 2 or 3 year contract, bring in Lindholm and Samson becomes expendable, if no other reason than continued cap control. Why? Because I believe Buffalo plans on re-signing Hall and solidifying the top 2 line LW position with Skinner and him, they also plan to solidify the top 2 center position with Eichel and Cozens eventually. The right wing looks to be the cost control mechanism, if, and I understand if, they plan on re-signing Hall. I can't see why they wouldn't given his age and production potential.

I'm probably wrong, but it appears to make some sense. Stabilize the cost, keep scoring talent together for a bit to show Eichel the organization means business on winning, leaves room for Dahlin contract, and flexibility to bring in other components.

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

We certainly need to make the most of this year, maximize the chance we have now - these things will be easier to figure out the more goodwill there is overall, too. 

I like this and would just add that goodwill would be created if the Sabres added Kuemper, who had a big year and helped the Sabres have an exciting year that got them to the playoffs.  With Kuemper under contract for another year, plus Jack, Dahlin, RK, Terry’s checkbook and Hall’s family not far away, that would be hard for Hall to walk away from.  
 

55 minutes ago, sweetlou said:

Given the circumstances of this off season, KA should tell Sam we are going to give you one year at $5.5 AAV.  See where he fits in when the team has other talented players. 

Either trade him next off season or sign him to a longer contract.  

If KA does this they will go to arbitration and Sam will likely get more.

I think the more logical move for both sides is a 2-year or possibly 3-year deal that gets Sam financial security and takes him to UFA.  Both sides would have some security and plenty of flexibility.  

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

I think the more logical move for both sides is a 2-year or possibly 3-year deal that gets Sam financial security and takes him to UFA.  Both sides would have some security and plenty of flexibility.  

There is a lot of logic from both sides to agreeing to the Domi deal (two years @ $5.3)

Gives Sam UFA status at 26 as the cap may be starting to open again. Gives the Sabres next summer to try to sign both Sam and Taylor to extensions and a year's safety net if they can't, as well as a better chance to add a goalie now.

[Thorny]

11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

There is a lot of logic from both sides to agreeing to the Domi deal (two years @ $5.3)

Gives Sam UFA status at 26 as the cap may be starting to open again. Gives the Sabres next summer to try to sign both Sam and Taylor to extensions and a year's safety net if they can't, as well as a better chance to add a goalie now.

From the Sabres point of view why not a one year deal then? Still gives them next summer to try and work something out before potentially moving him if they can't work something out, and Sam would have a little more cause to negotiate than if he was already locked in until ufa. 

[dudacek]

Just now, Thorny said:

From the Sabres point of view why not a one year deal then? Still gives them next summer to try and work something out before potentially moving him if they can't work something out, and Sam would have a little more cause to negotiate than if he was already locked in until ufa. 

I think they would be fine with it.

But like Freeman says, why wouldn't Sam just look at that and say "I'll take my chances with arbitration. There's a decent chance he'd get more and he's unlikely to get much less.

The two years gives him a bit more security and guarantees he can maximize his UFA window.

[LGR4GM]

9 hours ago, I-90 W said:

How about a goalie? I doubt we’re going to be able to pay him what he wants long term if Hall works out and wants to stay here.

For Sam money I’d rather we try to make a trade with Vegas for Fleury and another forward or prospect.

You want to trade Reinhart for a 7mil a year goalie who is 35? Who has 1 year in the last 4 where he posted a better sv% than Ullmark did this year. 

So we lose a guaranteed 50-60pts for a goalie that is probably good for a .910sv%, minus 7 mil in cap, and a forward or prospect. 

My point is that trading Reinhart is a bad idea. You aren't going to fill his value with some multiple player deal and the cost in terms of cap probably won't save you anything. 

 

9 hours ago, sweetlou said:

Given the circumstances of this off season, KA should tell Sam we are going to give you one year at $5.5 AAV.  See where he fits in when the team has other talented players. 

Either trade him next off season or sign him to a longer contract.  

What does that mean? He has played with Eichel, Skinner, ROR, in the last 3 years and been fine. 

[I-90 W]

We have to do something in net. I can realistically see MAF getting us 30 wins the next two seasons. We haven’t had that from a goalie since who, Miller? It would be easier to replace Sam’s point output IMO.

Goaltending is the pressing need. Might be time to say goodbye to Sam anyhow. We can’t keep banking on him taking bridge deals. 

[chloewoj]

10 hours ago, sweetlou said:

Given the circumstances of this off season, KA should tell Sam we are going to give you one year at $5.5 AAV.  See where he fits in when the team has other talented players. 

Either trade him next off season or sign him to a longer contract.  

it doesn't matter how many good players kevyn adams brings in, sam reinhart will always fit in with the top 6. sam will always play with the most talented players on the team (eichel, skinner, ror, etc). if sam doesn't play with eichel and hall next year then he'll play with skinner and staal. sam will basically fit in the same way he fit in last year even though this year's team will have more talented players. 

[chloewoj]

24 minutes ago, I-90 W said:

We have to do something in net. I can realistically see MAF getting us 30 wins the next two seasons. We haven’t had that from a goalie since who, Miller? It would be easier to replace Sam’s point output IMO.

Goaltending is the pressing need. Might be time to say goodbye to Sam anyhow. We can’t keep banking on him taking bridge deals. 

kelly mccrimmon has made it very clear that MAF is not being traded 

[Shootica]

Guys, I think some of you should look back at Fleury's stats from this past season. 

Of the top 62 goalies in shots faced last year, he ranked 42 in save percentage.  Ullmark was 20th, Hutton was 53rd.  And that was behind a Vegas team with very good team defense.  He looks even worse in the fancy stats that try to correct for shot quality.

This isn't the Fleury of 5 years ago.  This is 35 year old Fleury who is clearly on the downturn of his career and being paid more than all but 3 goalies in the league.

I love the guy as a player, but he isn't the answer we need in net.  And he certainly isn't the answer we need if it means losing Reinhart.

[LGR4GM]

48 minutes ago, I-90 W said:

We have to do something in net. I can realistically see MAF getting us 30 wins the next two seasons. We haven’t had that from a goalie since who, Miller? It would be easier to replace Sam’s point output IMO.

Goaltending is the pressing need. Might be time to say goodbye to Sam anyhow. We can’t keep banking on him taking bridge deals. 

You'd have to start Fluery 50+ times at least to get him to 30 wins. I have no confidence in him being the same goalie here as he is in vegas or as he ages. Also 7 mil in cap, how do we even begin to afford that for the next 2 seasons? 

You think it will be easy to replace 50-60 points? We spent years trying to do that when ROR left so I 100% think you are wrong. 

[JohnC]

29 minutes ago, chloewoj said:

it doesn't matter how many good players kevyn adams brings in, sam reinhart will always fit in with the top 6. sam will always play with the most talented players on the team (eichel, skinner, ror, etc). if sam doesn't play with eichel and hall next year then he'll play with skinner and staal. sam will basically fit in the same way he fit in last year even though this year's team will have more talented players. 

Excellent point! As you made clear whether he is playing on the first line with Jack or the second line with another composition he is enhancing the line he is on. I don't consider him as a player capable of driving one of the top two lines but what he does do is brings cohesion to the line he is playing on. And that attribute in itself is a valuable asset. 

[chloewoj]

15 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Excellent point! As you made clear whether he is playing on the first line with Jack or the second line with another composition he is enhancing the line he is on. I don't consider him as a player capable of driving one of the top two lines but what he does do is brings cohesion to the line he is playing on. And that attribute in itself is a valuable asset. 

most people would disagree with this but i feel like sam could drive his own line. the sabres just need to give him a chance to do so. people feel like he can't because he has been sheltered by eichel for pretty much his entire career and we really haven't seen him away from jack. sam has the skills to drive his own line. he knows how to generate plays off the rush, he has the passing ability that can set players up, and he knows how to finish. if you put sam at center and gave him two solid wingers (olofsson, cozens, skinner, etc) he would be able to drive that line to high point production. 

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, chloewoj said:

most people would disagree with this but i feel like sam could drive his own line. the sabres just need to give him a chance to do so. people feel like he can't because he has been sheltered by eichel for pretty much his entire career and we really haven't seen him away from jack. sam has the skills to drive his own line. he knows how to generate plays off the rush, he has the passing ability that can set players up, and he knows how to finish. if you put sam at center and gave him two solid wingers (olofsson, cozens, skinner, etc) he would be able to drive that line to high point production. 

Your position about Sam is sound but I disagree with it. What's telling is that the Sabre brain trust was determined to make it a priority to trade for Staal to center the second line. It was this new staff's first order of business. If there was a belief that Sam could be the 2C it wouldn't have been such a priority to seek an alternative from a deal. 

There is no doubt that with more talent that Sam could be a more effective 2C. But that skirts the issue that the organization believed that it could find a better center for the second line with another player. I'm a Sam fan. He has unparalleled vision and a nuance to his game that can't be taught. As a winger he has attributes that will enhance the line he is playing. There is no question that with more talent on his line the more benefit will be derived from his exceptional cerebral play. That can happen with him on the wing. 

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, chloewoj said:

most people would disagree with this but i feel like sam could drive his own line. the sabres just need to give him a chance to do so. people feel like he can't because he has been sheltered by eichel for pretty much his entire career and we really haven't seen him away from jack. sam has the skills to drive his own line. he knows how to generate plays off the rush, he has the passing ability that can set players up, and he knows how to finish. if you put sam at center and gave him two solid wingers (olofsson, cozens, skinner, etc) he would be able to drive that line to high point production. 

 

57 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Your position about Sam is sound but I disagree with it. What's telling is that the Sabre brain trust was determined to make it a priority to trade for Staal to center the second line. It was this new staff's first order of business. If there was a belief that Sam could be the 2C it wouldn't have been such a priority to seek an alternative from a deal. 

There is no doubt that with more talent that Sam could be a more effective 2C. But that skirts the issue that the organization believed that it could find a better center for the second line with another player. I'm a Sam fan. He has unparalleled vision and a nuance to his game that can't be taught. As a winger he has attributes that will enhance the line he is playing. There is no question that with more talent on his line the more benefit will be derived from his exceptional cerebral play. That can happen with him on the wing. 

If Sam plays with Staal and Skinner this year — which is likely — he will drive that line from the wing.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

If Sam plays with Staal and Skinner this year — which is likely — he will drive that line from the wing.

I can go along with that view as a winger. That is why I want him to be retained. 

[Thorny]

10 hours ago, chloewoj said:

most people would disagree with this but i feel like sam could drive his own line. the sabres just need to give him a chance to do so. people feel like he can't because he has been sheltered by eichel for pretty much his entire career and we really haven't seen him away from jack. sam has the skills to drive his own line. he knows how to generate plays off the rush, he has the passing ability that can set players up, and he knows how to finish. if you put sam at center and gave him two solid wingers (olofsson, cozens, skinner, etc) he would be able to drive that line to high point production. 

Welcome new poster!

I've read it suggested that, if Cozens shows himself capable of playing wing man to Skinner and Staal, that maybe we could run a balanced set up where Reinhart plays RW on the third line with Eakin and Thompson - two players who may very much be in need of the help - but yet two players potentially better than the last two, the last time Sam was asked to carry a line.

Thoughts? I'm more a fan of loading up the top 6, but it's not unheard of Cozens that could be ready, and Sam on the third line would be a matchup nightmare for other teams. Just thought it an interesting idea, like others have said I totally agree with you that Sam can drive a line.

9 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

If Sam plays with Staal and Skinner this year — which is likely — he will drive that line from the wing.

Probably. Certainly more than Skinner. 

[thewookie1]

I’d be looking for a 5x6mil contract. I refuse to give him a 2 year contract unless it’s well under 4 mil as it would only hurt Buffalo for him to get 2x6 and flee to UFA. Even arbitration is preferable to a 2x6 deal as we retain his rights. 

[chloewoj]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Welcome new poster!

I've read it suggested that, if Cozens shows himself capable of playing wing man to Skinner and Staal, that maybe we could run a balanced set up where Reinhart plays RW on the third line with Eakin and Thompson - two players who may very much be in need of the help - but yet two players potentially better than the last two, the last time Sam was asked to carry a line.

Thoughts? I'm more a fan of loading up the top 6, but it's not unheard of Cozens that could be ready, and Sam on the third line would be a matchup nightmare for other teams. Just thought it an interesting idea, like others have said I totally agree with you that Sam can drive a line.

i'm 100% a fan of loading up the top 6...i love the idea of putting out 2 lines loaded up with big dogs and giving them big minutes so there's a constant scoring threat on the ice. then again, adding reinhart to the third line could transform this roster from 2 solid lines to 3 solid lines (and honestly it could be 4 solid lines if the 4th line continues to dominate). both are very good options for the sabres. if i had to speculate on what krueger will do though, i would have to say loading up on the top 6.

[PerreaultForever]

14 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

If Sam plays with Staal and Skinner this year — which is likely — he will drive that line from the wing.

I read on nhl.com the early projection is:

Hall-Eichel-Reinhart

Skinner-Staal-Cozens

Reider-Eakins-Olofsson

Girgensens-Lazar-Okposo

Krueger was quoted as saying the plan was to play Hall with Eichel. 

On 10/19/2020 at 6:52 PM, LGR4GM said:

Something. Define something

6 or 7 million dollars worth I guess.   Impossible to say who it'd be for, but it would have to be value. 

[JohnC]

11 hours ago, chloewoj said:

i'm 100% a fan of loading up the top 6...i love the idea of putting out 2 lines loaded up with big dogs and giving them big minutes so there's a constant scoring threat on the ice. then again, adding reinhart to the third line could transform this roster from 2 solid lines to 3 solid lines (and honestly it could be 4 solid lines if the 4th line continues to dominate). both are very good options for the sabres. if i had to speculate on what krueger will do though, i would have to say loading up on the top 6.

As you point out by loading up the top 2 lines instead of spreading some of the talent down line you are playing your most prolific players the most minutes. It's been a long time since our second line was deemed to be a credible second line. It seems that it is now. What is most interesting is seeing how Krueger is going to construct the third line? He has some young pieces to work with. Are players like Cozens and Tage ready? I'm hoping that Kahun can be brought back into the fold and added to the mix after he scans the market. 

[Taro T]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I read on nhl.com the early projection is:

Hall-Eichel-Reinhart

Skinner-Staal-Cozens

Reider-Eakins-Olofsson

Girgensens-Lazar-Okposo

Krueger was quoted as saying the plan was to play Hall with Eichel. 

6 or 7 million dollars worth I guess.   Impossible to say who it'd be for, but it would have to be value. 

While Reider MAY beat out Thompson, they're giving Baby Giraffe twice what Reider will get paid.  Tage will, if healthy, be pencilled into the lineup when camp opens & unless he is severely outplayed will also be in the opening night lineup.  Pretty sure there are several other errors with that lineup, but that 1 is glaring.

[JohnC]

4 minutes ago, Taro T said:

While Reider MAY beat out Thompson, they're giving Baby Giraffe twice what Reider will get paid.  Tage will, if healthy, be pencilled into the lineup when camp opens & unless he is severely outplayed will also be in the opening night lineup.  Pretty sure there are several other errors with that lineup, but that 1 is glaring.

The composition of the third line is going to be as intriguing, if not more, than how the second lined is assembled. Maybe Cozens/Eakins/Tage? Is it inconceivable that Mitts comes into camp bulked up and juiced up with desire? Or has my imagination run amuck?

[Taro T]

22 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The composition of the third line is going to be as intriguing, if not more, than how the second lined is assembled. Maybe Cozens/Eakins/Tage? Is it inconceivable that Mitts comes into camp bulked up and juiced up with desire? Or has my imagination run amuck?

Definitely.

My expectation is that Eakins centers Girgensons & Okposo & that line gets used as a traditional 3rd checking line.  Which leaves the 4th line as Thompson-Lazar-Cozens as a more recently predominant youth & ST's line as Lazar will be on the PK & the other 2 on the 2nd PP unit.

But, could also see them putting the kids w/ Eakins & Lazar getting Larsson's wingers & those 2 lines getting used similarly (but w/ less ice time for the "youth" line than the RAV line got) to how Ruff used the 3rd & 4th lines back in the Golisano era's heyday.

Hopefully Mittelstadt & Asplund, Smith, &/or Ruutsaleinen are ready to challenge as well so that we see some real competition in camp throughout all 4 lines.  Having to place NHLers in Ra-cha-cha is not a bad problem.  Only took about 7 years to get back to that point upfront.  The D had a couple like that last year.  When we finally have guys that won't get crushed in the show between the pipes in Ra-cha-cha as well, they'll be a real NHL franchise again.

Would be awesome to see them having to sweat out sending Reider down because Mittelstadt or Smith forced their hand. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Taro T