Reinhart, sign him or trade him?

[pi2000]

1 hour ago, Zamboni said:

I would love Sam at 6-8 years at 6 mil.  But his peers are not getting that. As much as one wants to stomp their feet and cross their arms, I believe he’s getting close to 7 mil. Maybe slightly less, maybe slightly more. He has way too much evidence on his side that he’s worth that neighborhood of cap hit too.

We need to get away from the mindset of basing contract numbers strictly off of point production.

[Zamboni]

4 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

We need to get away from the mindset of basing contract numbers strictly off of point production.

We? Or the entire NHL? Because it’s the entire NHL that the majority of the weight of contracts, are based on point production… for forwards. It usually isn’t based on if a player can Dipsy doodle or look like they’re trying hard or makes a person feel like they’re not giving a full effort every shift. If you don’t like that… Then that’s an NHL problem you have, not a fan of a player problem.

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I think I finally understand the Reinhart vitriol. It is because he was a 2nd overall pick and didn't turn into Draisaitl. While I disagree, I can understand the frustration. 

That's part of it for me. I wanted them to pick Draisaitl, so ya, it will always be painful to see.

The other part is all of what pi2000 mentions above. This is why I draw you towards other players and their RFA contracts. The numbers you want to give him, the numbers he likely gets if JBot is here, they simply don't measure up to what else is out there being rewarded at that level.

We are far away from  being a cup competitor so maybe it doesn't seem important to toss a few extra millions around here and there, but if we improve at all, and eventually become that, it will be impossible to go from average to top if the roster is saddled with overpaid players. Especially if they are inconsistent types or players that do not make the others around them better but rather need better players with them in order to succeed, cause that is what Skinner is ("he needs a 2C") and what Sam is as well ("he can't drive his own line.")

This is why I say we will never win with him (assuming he gets the big bucks) and why I'd trade him  for a more competitive type guy(s) now if we can.

As for Cirelli, absolutely, but Tampa isn't going to trade  for an RFA who expects a big payday are they? Cap issues are the only reason they'd trade anyone at all so that wouldn't help them out would it. So I'm not sure who the trade partner could be, just don't pay him that 7 million plus deal that's been proposed. He isn't worth it. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by PerreaultForever

[PerreaultForever]

On 3/1/2020 at 9:00 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Kyle Connor got 7 million per over 7 years. I read people wanting Sam to get 7-8 million. Let's see which one of them has a better game coming up this week. 

So, let's recap shall we. Kyle Connor, 2 goals and an assist. Sam Reinhart nada. 

Can we end this now?

[Second Line Center]

Samson isnt worth more than 6-7 mill per year.  

What does he do that's special?  Act as Jack's Uber?   

Over 60 points once in his career.  He plays with Eichel and has had more than 40 assists once.  

Epic epic 2nd overall pick bust.  Nice player.  Nice piece on a 3rd line of a great team.  Should have been traded last summer.  But our GM probably lost any guts he had left after ROR fleecing.  

[Thorny]

29 minutes ago, Second Line Center said:

Samson isnt worth more than 6-7 mill per year.  

What does he do that's special?  Act as Jack's Uber?   

Over 60 points once in his career.  He plays with Eichel and has had more than 40 assists once.  

Epic epic 2nd overall pick bust.  Nice player.  Nice piece on a 3rd line of a great team.  Should have been traded last summer.  But our GM probably lost any guts he had left after ROR fleecing.  

Is he worth 7 million a year? Debatable.

2nd overall bust? Not even close. Disappointed we didn't get more from that spot? Totally fair. 

3rd line player? Not even close. Better suited to second line on a contending team? Very arguable. 

Should have been traded? No. Could reasonably be traded? Arguable, but unlikely to get the best player in the deal if we're moving him. 

- - - 

We need better players. But we do still need Reinhart level players. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Thorny

[Zamboni]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

So, let's recap shall we. Kyle Connor, 2 goals and an assist. Sam Reinhart nada. 

Can we end this now?

What exactly in your mind do you think needs ending?

Where is the disconnect in your mind that says YOU aren’t the one continuing this obsessive anti Reinhart posting? IMO He lives rent free in your head like I’ve never seen a player in a fans head before. It’s stunning really. 
Me personally, I’ve stated what I would like Reinhart signed at. And what he probably will get signed at. By someone...

IMO, At this point you’re just plain trolling and baiting. Posting just for the sake of getting a reaction and stirring things up. IMO, it’s kinda immature.

Bottom line is no matter what you say, you aren’t going to convince those of us who like Reinhart, to dislike him. No matter what you type. So the purpose of your obsessive negative posts are doing what exactly? What change or effect are you trying to accomplish. You must have a goal in mind, right?. What is it?

posting contract projections/predictions aren’t attempting to convince you to think their way. We know it’s useless. It would be nice to have nice, friendly and respectful conversation with you about Reinhart, but you make it impossible with how you obsess over him. So it’s IMO, useless. Wish it wasn’t.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Zamboni

[pi2000]

The more I watch him play the less I want him on the team.

He's on pace for fewer points than last season.  0g, 0a, -7, 7 SOG, 1 hit on this 4 game road trip.  Skinner had 5 hits, even Eichel with a core injury had 3 hits.   As an offensive guy on the top line, to have 7 SOG over the course of 4 games is very very poor.   Skinner had 8 SOG in one game vs Vegas.

Seriously, is Sam playing with an injury?

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, Zamboni said:

What exactly in your mind do you think needs ending?

Where is the disconnect in your mind that says YOU aren’t the one continuing this obsessive anti Reinhart posting? IMO He lives rent free in your head like I’ve never seen a player in a fans head before. It’s stunning really. 
Me personally, I’ve stated what I would like Reinhart signed at. And what he probably will get signed at. By someone...

IMO, At this point you’re just plain trolling and baiting. Posting just for the sake of getting a reaction and stirring things up. IMO, it’s kinda immature.

Bottom line is no matter what you say, you aren’t going to convince those of us who like Reinhart, to dislike him. No matter what you type. So the purpose of your obsessive negative posts are doing what exactly? What change or effect are you trying to accomplish. You must have a goal in mind, right?. What is it?

posting contract projections/predictions aren’t attempting to convince you to think their way. We know it’s useless. It would be nice to have nice, friendly and respectful conversation with you about Reinhart, but you make it impossible with how you obsess over him. So it’s IMO, useless. Wish it wasn’t.

What needs ending is the idea that we should sign him, and sign him for 7 million plus. That is the thread topic isn't it? Sign him or trade him.

So I give up. I give example after example, proof of the points game after game, but you don't want to see it. You consider it trolling. So whatever, I give up. Obviously no point in saying it since it stares at you game after game here and you still don't want to see it.

So no point, and if we sign him long term to a huge contract you wont' have to worry about me trolling cause I will be out. It'll mean we won't have a shot at winning for a really long time and I'm too old to wait for that. I've just about had enough of the Sabres as it is and if I hadn't of been a fan for so long I'd have ditched them already. They are rapidly becoming the worst team in professional sports. 

[MODO Hockey]

62 players are better than this kid, when looking at points this season that is. 
Then again he makes 3,6 mil for now so id take him anyday for that, but not gonna happen when resigning. 

So ship this kid out of here, never liked him much anyway. Give us a teamplayer please.

Edited March 4, 2020 by MODO Hockey

[nfreeman]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

What needs ending is the idea that we should sign him, and sign him for 7 million plus. That is the thread topic isn't it? Sign him or trade him.

So I give up. I give example after example, proof of the points game after game, but you don't want to see it. You consider it trolling. So whatever, I give up. Obviously no point in saying it since it stares at you game after game here and you still don't want to see it.

So no point, and if we sign him long term to a huge contract you wont' have to worry about me trolling cause I will be out. It'll mean we won't have a shot at winning for a really long time and I'm too old to wait for that. I've just about had enough of the Sabres as it is and if I hadn't of been a fan for so long I'd have ditched them already. They are rapidly becoming the worst team in professional sports. 

I don't think anyone minds you making your case about Reino in this thread, or updating it as further facts emerge.  But it's kinda annoying to saturate other threads with it.

On the topic at hand:  while I think Reino is a good player and want to keep him, I too have been concerned about overpaying Reino because their highly-paid core is going to include Eichel, Dahlin and Skinner as locks, and there is room only for 1 or 2 more big contracts.  If Reino gets one of those slots, there may not be room to bring in another highly-paid guy that could contribute more than Reino.

However, I think dumping Reino for picks and prospects because we don't want to pay him, say, $7MM per year x 7 years is likely to make the team worse, not better.

I'll also note that even @LGR4GM and other Reino supporters (like me) are fine with trading Reino in a package for a no-BS really good 2C or similar difference-maker.  That's the easy case.  The hard question is the picks/prospects dump.

So, I'll ask you and the other "trade Reino" advocates:  what is the LEAST you would be willing to trade Reino for? 

[#freejame]

1 minute ago, nfreeman said:

I don't think anyone minds you making your case about Reino in this thread, or updating it as further facts emerge.  But it's kinda annoying to saturate other threads with it.

On the topic at hand:  while I think Reino is a good player and want to keep him, I too have been concerned about overpaying Reino because their highly-paid core is going to include Eichel, Dahlin and Skinner as locks, and there is room only for 1 or 2 more big contracts.  If Reino gets one of those slots, there may not be room to bring in another highly-paid guy that could contribute more than Reino.

However, I think dumping Reino for picks and prospects because we don't want to pay him, say, $7MM per year x 7 years is likely to make the team worse, not better.

I'll also note that even @LGR4GM and other Reino supporters (like me) are fine with trading Reino in a package for a no-BS really good 2C or similar difference-maker.  That's the easy case.  The hard question is the picks/prospects dump.

So, I'll ask you and the other "trade Reino" advocates:  what is the LEAST you would be willing to trade Reino for? 

I’m most certainly a Reinhart supporter, but I wanted to answer your question on what the least I would trade for anyway. I would accept packaging Sam and Montour for a cost controlled RW making under $6M for the next three years. That would free up about $6m in cap space and allow us to sign another second line RW at around that same cost. Though I don’t think this FA class is anything too special, I would have to look into it more and the trade would be contingent on good options being available. 

[LGR4GM]

If I am trading a 20goal 55-65 point player in their prime that is the only top 6 right wing we have, it has to be for something really good. I refuse to be battered into some notion that Reinhart just "has to go" because it sounds an awful lot like the same BS rhetoric with ROR. I think Reinhart has hurt his next contract because I think he has slumped. If he gets 6.75 or less that is a win. Of course he could have been signed last summer to a deal too and avoided this whole thing. Either way, shitting all over Reinhart when he still 2nd on this team in points is silly because we need to add talent. Why would a team trade us a RW of his caliber for him? Those types of swaps are rare. That means you have to trade him for a center. Personally I think we should sign him and stop pissing talent off a team that has little of it. 

[dudacek]

I like Sam and think he would be ideal in the Patrick Sharp role on a cup team. (Weave nailed that a couple years ago). He is ill-suited to be our #2 player.

I'd happily trade him, but only if the net result is that a better player is coming here in return: Sam and somebody for a better player; Sam for futures if the futures are flipped for a better player.

Like it or hate it, his numbers dictate a market value of $6-$7 million with term. I hope we can do it on the low end. Recent comparables at the high end are Nylander ($6.9) and Connor ($7.1) and his play doesn't justify more than they got. We could also go for a shorter term that sends him to UFA earlier, like Guentzel and Schwartz did, and carve $1 million off the cap hit, but my preference would be term.

Edited March 4, 2020 by dudacek

[Randall Flagg]

Just now, dudacek said:

I'd happily trade him, but only if the net result is that a better player is coming here in return: Sam and somebody for a better player; Sam for futures if the futures are flipped for a better player.

Don't even let yourself entertain this idea though, it's never going to happen. It's what I told myself as ROR rumors ramped up. It'd be multiple lesser pieces 

[Sabre fan]

the thing I do not understand with how Ralphie has gone about things this year is that we continue to throw Sam out there with jack and obviously that in itself makes Sam look better then he may actually be. I think the true and best indicator would have been to actually throw Sam on the 2nd line with say Vesey and whoever and see how he performs not riding Jack's back. In essence what we have done is allow Sam to inflate his numbers (even though they are still not great this year) playing with Jack in his contract year which is not very bright. Looks like JBotto will overpay Sam and then we'll have both Skinner and Sam being overpaid and under-performing. If they give Sam say $7 mil for 7 years both those contracts will haunt this team for years to come. Ralphie has totally misused Skinner for that matter leaving the 2nd highest paid player wasting away on the 2nd line...

[dudacek]

I liked what I saw from Sam and Jeff together in the 3rd last night.

Sam looked more assertive and he got Jeff the puck in a way no one else has for most of the year.

I hope Ralph gives that pairing an extended look as we ride out the season.

[Zamboni]

Well, Skinner was banished to the 2nd line. Unfortunately, it was after he was signed to his huge contract. Because aside from point totals, Skinner has been playing and looking like a 3 mil. dollar player.

And it looks like it needs to be said ... again ... good players play better with better players. That shouldn’t be a revelation to anyone who watches team sports. Eichel would not have his points like he has, if he was playing with KO and Vesey all year. Just like Reinharts production would take a hit if he was centered by Larsson and had Girgs.

Most higher contracts aren’t negotiated after they take a good player off a good line to see how they do off that line. They are negotiated with the thought they would continue to be productive on the line they are good on. Don’t like it? That’s the NHL...

[Hank]

I agree with everything LGR says about Sam. And almost nothing he says about everything else. Funny how that works ?

[Thorny]

15 hours ago, pi2000 said:

The more I watch him play the less I want him on the team.

He's on pace for fewer points than last season.  0g, 0a, -7, 7 SOG, 1 hit on this 4 game road trip.  Skinner had 5 hits, even Eichel with a core injury had 3 hits.   As an offensive guy on the top line, to have 7 SOG over the course of 4 games is very very poor.   Skinner had 8 SOG in one game vs Vegas.

Seriously, is Sam playing with an injury?

I think Sam, Eichel, and a bunch of players are, to be honest: playoff elimin-itis. 

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, nfreeman said:

However, I think dumping Reino for picks and prospects because we don't want to pay him, say, $7MM per year x 7 years is likely to make the team worse, not better.

I'll also note that even @LGR4GM and other Reino supporters (like me) are fine with trading Reino in a package for a no-BS really good 2C or similar difference-maker.  That's the easy case.  The hard question is the picks/prospects dump.

So, I'll ask you and the other "trade Reino" advocates:  what is the LEAST you would be willing to trade Reino for? 

Personally I think it's addition by subtraction so anything but I don't want to go on about it since some people are getting uppity as they usually do this time of year. I noticed the same thing last year. The frustration builds to the breaking point and some people start to lash out at other fans rather than the team/players, cause it's easier to vent that way. 

There are not a lot of great UFAs out there. Personally I'd be looking at guys like Nemestikov cause we need some good PK guys, so if all you can get for Reinhart is picks, maybe JBot has to be creative enough for a 3 way like Colorado did and move those picks plus whatever combination for what the team needs.I have no idea what the market value of Reinhart is. I suspect it's lower than many people here think.

What I want is a roster filled with guys who play harder in big games, not guys who disappear when the going gets tough. It's a big ask with this roster and that's why ultimately I feel a new tough guy in charge is the only way to go forward. Otherwise it's just constant shuffling of pieces around a bad core. It'll never work.

[nfreeman]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

...

so if all you can get for Reinhart is picks, maybe JBot has to be creative enough for a 3 way like Colorado did and move those picks plus whatever combination for what the team needs.I have no idea what the market value of Reinhart is. I suspect it's lower than many people here think.

 

This isn't really a clear answer to my question.

Just to be clear:  if someone offered, say, the 23rd pick in the 1st round this year plus a 3rd-rounder for Reino, would you say yes?

[3putt]

Ah the Kobayashi Maru... 

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

This isn't really a clear answer to my question.

Just to be clear:  if someone offered, say, the 23rd pick in the 1st round this year plus a 3rd-rounder for Reino, would you say yes?

The only way this deal would make sense is if the GM had a deal lined up where we were trading that 1st for a player better than Reinhart. The chances the 23rd overall pick becomes a player as good as Reinhart is very slim. 

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, nfreeman said:

This isn't really a clear answer to my question.

Just to be clear:  if someone offered, say, the 23rd pick in the 1st round this year plus a 3rd-rounder for Reino, would you say yes?

That's not enough. But I would show that to his agent in contract negotiations if his demands are too high. I'd tell him straight we ain't trading him for that so if he doesn't sign for our number he can try the KHL.