Reinhart, sign him or trade him?

[LGR4GM]

7 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Don't get bogged down by exact words. I'm not overly interested in debating if "elite" has to be used differently than "1st line player." The point is the supporters think of him as a core player, a top line player, a top guy who should be paid top dollar. The number 8 mil was mentioned a little while ago. Simply crazy. pay him even more than Nylander, a guy who already locks T-dot into cap hell? You want that road to oblivion? No thank you. 

Nylander is on pace for like 80 points this year. That contract was good. 

Sam is an RFA meaning we have leverage still and shouldn't need to go into Skinner land for money. Personally, I like Reinhart at 7.5mil because I think that is what a winger with his production should make. Let's see what his contract is first but I would be willing to go to 8mil because he's a valuable member of our team. Let's home he signs for less. 

[Taro T]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

lol I want this to happen just so when Sam goes to... idk Edmonton and puts up 70 point seasons with McDavid. Meanwhile the 2 Johansson level players we get will have 30-40point seasons and you will add them together and call it victory! 

He's not getting 2 Johanssons for that.  He's getting a couple of slightly better versions of Vesey &/or Sheary and will then bemoan how all Botterill does is bring in 3rd & 4th liners.

[GASabresIUFAN]

The best case scenario for the Sabres two years from now is for Cozens to develop into a viable 2C and either Thompson or Mitts to develop into his RW.  However we must keep Reinhart.  

Top 6 of

VO Eichel Reinhart

Skinner Cozens Mitts/Thompson

That's the goal.  We must keep our good players and jettison the rest.

Jbot needs to get a viable 2C for the next year or two to bridge that gap.

[Broken Ankles]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The best case scenario for the Sabres two years from now is for Cozens to develop into a viable 2C and either Thompson or Mitts to develop into his RW.  However we must keep Reinhart.  

Top 6 of

VO Eichel Reinhart

Skinner Cozens Mitts/Thompson

That's the goal.  We must keep our good players and jettison the rest.

Jbot needs to get a viable 2C for the next year or two to bridge that gap.

Not sure this is the best case scenario.  Based on Mitts play in Rocha-cha, and what we saw from Thompson last year I'm not sure this is even the most probable case.  There is a lot of cap space and pieces to be moved to acquire a true 2C or 2RW.   We need to "BE BETTER".

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

12 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Jack may have flaws but the media outside Buffalo is starting to acknowledge the fact that he has finally elevated and become elite. I have yet to see a single article/discussion outside of the local biased coverage that says anything about Sam being elite. Lumping Skinner, Jack, Sam, as "3 top forwards" is a disservice to Jack. Skinner is a decent goalscorer but not all that special on a top team, possibly not a great team guy (not sure on that but Carolina certainly doesn't seem to miss him) but even if he is, definitely not worth the money JBot gave him. Sam? Not even close to those 2. Name me one other top team where Sam would play on their top line? I can't think of one. 

Just to clarify .....what top team are you talking about so I can think of another?

[nfreeman]

16 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I will let the results speak for themselves and continue to periodically point out things he does badly while still hoping JBot will trade him and help move this franchise forward, but I doubt that happens.Likely we will be stuck with an overpaid slacker for the next decade. The draft lottery and fire the coach/GM threads should be fun.But please, spare me the snide comments. You can in fact, do better. 

 

13 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

8mil for Sam would be nuts and would definitely send us down the path to perpetual mediocrity - or worse.  If that's the money I'd much rather trade him for picks/prospects and sign 2  3-4mil FAs instead. 

Just to be clear:  if it takes, say, $7.5MM x 8 years to keep Reino, are you saying that you'd rather trade him for, say, the 19th pick in the draft, the 19th pick in the 2nd round and a Tage Thompson-level prospect?  And then sign a couple of Froliks?  Because you're not getting a top-5 draft pick or an elite prospect for him, and you're not getting a Skinner or Panarin at that price point.

 

10 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

No. Simply no. I'm not going to counter each team but if you think Washington would take Wilson off of Ovi's line and replace him with Sam you are insane. 

I notice you didn't list Boston, so at least you acknowledge he's no Marchand ? (who makes 6.125 mil by the way)

 

OTOH, I agree that there are plenty of higher-end NHL teams on which Reino wouldn't play on the top line. 

As I've said previously, if he's your 4th- or 5th-best forward, you've probably got a really good offense, but if he's your 2nd- or 3rd-best forward, you've probably got a lousy offense. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

12 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Exactly. Because as I said earlier, it's not all about points. 

 

How much money? I will gladly take that bet. 

8mil for Sam would be nuts and would definitely send us down the path to perpetual mediocrity - or worse.  If that's the money I'd much rather trade him for picks/prospects and sign 2  3-4mil FAs instead. 

That's the way I feel about Jack, like...like maybe ....we could get 3-4 of those magical pieces to fill more than one gaping hole on the team. Jack is just a show-off and likes dangle his way around 3 players in disregard for his linemates and shoot for the post or better yet , how about when he starts the wind-up behind his net and goes on one of those puck- hoggin'-Perreault-like rushes end to end. The NHL should take that kind of trash out of the game and they could replace a guy like that with a half dozen or more Matt Ellis' and create more jobs where there is a "team first" attitude with guys who finish their checks.

[steveoath]

On the money front. Is it unrealistic to think of around 100K per point? 

[SwampD]

39 minutes ago, steveoath said:

On the money front. Is it unrealistic to think of around 100K per point? 

I think so. More like 125K now.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

 

Just to be clear:  if it takes, say, $7.5MM x 8 years to keep Reino, are you saying that you'd rather trade him for, say, the 19th pick in the draft, the 19th pick in the 2nd round and a Tage Thompson-level prospect?  And then sign a couple of Froliks?  Because you're not getting a top-5 draft pick or an elite prospect for him, and you're not getting a Skinner or Panarin at that price point.

 

OTOH, I agree that there are plenty of higher-end NHL teams on which Reino wouldn't play on the top line. 

As I've said previously, if he's your 4th- or 5th-best forward, you've probably got a really good offense, but if he's your 2nd- or 3rd-best forward, you've probably got a lousy offense.

Understand where you're going with that.  But when Skinner and Olofsson were both healthy and Johansson was at the top of his game, there were nights when Reinhart was the 4th best Sabre forward.  Those nights, the offense wasn't better than the nights he was the 2nd best.  Just saying.

If this team was healthy (and they're young, so it's not out of the question that they can stay healthy once Jeff and Victor come back) and they had a 6th legit top 6 F that was worse than Reinhart; the offense would be still be plenty good enough.  And the pressing needs would be a backup (or better) goalie and either teaching the available D how to kill penalties or bringing a guy in that knows how to do it.

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

lol I want this to happen just so when Sam goes to... idk Edmonton and puts up 70 point seasons with McDavid. Meanwhile the 2 Johansson level players we get will have 30-40point seasons and you will add them together and call it victory! 

It might be victory it might not. You're caught up in numbers and I am not. Edmonton has Kassian playing with McDavid to protect him and to open up ice for him. This is not a unique piece of logic. The best lines are not just about sticking scorers together, they are about line chemistry and working different parts together to create a dangerous unit. Eichel (with Oloffson or Skinner as the scorer on one side) will be a much better player with a big body on the other side that will open up ice for the other two guys as well as getting the dirty rebounds. Perry added to Getzlaf sort of thing. 

Generally, the best value in free agents is mid range players who haven't peaked yet. You can plug in a complimentary piece. I'd rather work in those missing pieces than dump money in one or two deep pockets.

To the Nylander comment, it is not a good contract. Toronto has way too much money dumped into 4 forwards and thus cannot build a D to go with them. It will keep them from playoff success. Not the road I want us to go down. 

[woods-racer]

4 hours ago, SwampD said:

I think so. More like 125K now.

So that is the 6-7 million range based off of points?

 

Be crazy not to sign him.

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, nfreeman said:

 

Just to be clear:  if it takes, say, $7.5MM x 8 years to keep Reino, are you saying that you'd rather trade him for, say, the 19th pick in the draft, the 19th pick in the 2nd round and a Tage Thompson-level prospect?  And then sign a couple of Froliks?  Because you're not getting a top-5 draft pick or an elite prospect for him, and you're not getting a Skinner or Panarin at that price point.

 

OTOH, I agree that there are plenty of higher-end NHL teams on which Reino wouldn't play on the top line. 

As I've said previously, if he's your 4th- or 5th-best forward, you've probably got a really good offense, but if he's your 2nd- or 3rd-best forward, you've probably got a lousy offense. 

Well I hope the prospect would be better than Tage, that'd be on JBot to get it right for a change. I'm not sure what you can get, but I'd rather use the money elsewhere yes. Looking at last year, Donskoi type signings, not Froliks.  

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

That's the way I feel about Jack, like...like maybe ....we could get 3-4 of those magical pieces to fill more than one gaping hole on the team. Jack is just a show-off and likes dangle his way around 3 players in disregard for his linemates and shoot for the post or better yet , how about when he starts the wind-up behind his net and goes on one of those puck- hoggin'-Perreault-like rushes end to end. The NHL should take that kind of trash out of the game and they could replace a guy like that with a half dozen or more Matt Ellis' and create more jobs where there is a "team first" attitude with guys who finish their checks.

So what you're saying is we have to thank Sam for always standing back and forcing Jack to do it all alone? Wait, maybe Sam isn't lazy, maybe he's just blinded by Jack's whirlwind brightness? Ok, I take it all back, Sam should get 20 mil a year. Compensation for the sunburn. It's all Jack's fault for being such a show off. Get rid of him. 

When he wakes up from his nap. Guy is tired.....................

Edited January 23, 2020 by PerreaultForever

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

It might be victory it might not. You're caught up in numbers and I am not. Edmonton has Kassian playing with McDavid to protect him and to open up ice for him. This is not a unique piece of logic. The best lines are not just about sticking scorers together, they are about line chemistry and working different parts together to create a dangerous unit. Eichel (with Oloffson or Skinner as the scorer on one side) will be a much better player with a big body on the other side that will open up ice for the other two guys as well as getting the dirty rebounds. Perry added to Getzlaf sort of thing. 

Generally, the best value in free agents is mid range players who haven't peaked yet. You can plug in a complimentary piece. I'd rather work in those missing pieces than dump money in one or two deep pockets.

To the Nylander comment, it is not a good contract. Toronto has way too much money dumped into 4 forwards and thus cannot build a D to go with them. It will keep them from playoff success. Not the road I want us to go down. 

Hold the ***** on. Are you seriously arguing that Connor McDavid is better because Kassian is on his line "opening up ice"? 

Also Reinhart doesn't get rebounds? Really? 

Idk how to tell you this but according to every scoring curve correlated to age, 27 which is what typical ufas are, have already peaked or have 1-2 years of prime production left. Good luck getting a 70 pts winger in ufa for under 8mil and without a 7 year term. 

The Nylander contract is good because he's producing. They can trade him to fix their defense. Also I fairly certain even with their bad defense they are better than Buffalo. Tor have way too much dumped into 4 forwards yet you want and have argued for more forwards in buffalo. 

[LGR4GM]

What's the parameters to claim victory? I need to know. 

[PerreaultForever]

26 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Hold the ***** on. Are you seriously arguing that Connor McDavid is better because Kassian is on his line "opening up ice"? 

Also Reinhart doesn't get rebounds? Really? 

Idk how to tell you this but according to every scoring curve correlated to age, 27 which is what typical ufas are, have already peaked or have 1-2 years of prime production left. Good luck getting a 70 pts winger in ufa for under 8mil and without a 7 year term. 

The Nylander contract is good because he's producing. They can trade him to fix their defense. Also I fairly certain even with their bad defense they are better than Buffalo. Tor have way too much dumped into 4 forwards yet you want and have argued for more forwards in buffalo. 

You are twisting all my comments to suit your narrative. So I shouldn't need to clarify if you made an effort to understand what I'm actually saying but I guess I do.

- why is Kassian on that line? why do they value him? Most of the greatest lines in hockey have a mix of player types. Espo had Cashman. Trottier had Gilles. Ovi has Wilson. So many examples. Would Edmonton prefer a more skilled power forward, probably, but in a cap era it's close enough. You get the idea? A great line needs a scorer, a playmaker and some grit. That's been hockey forever and still is, despite what the analytic video game watchers think.

- getting rebounds was only part of the role. that's what I said. never said he doesn't get rebounds. He'd get more if he got dirtier and played more physical. Took a hit instead of backing away from them.

- again, not looking for a 70 pt. FA. Looking for complimentary pieces. Players with skill sets we lack as a team. I think about team structure as a whole. Not stars and individuals. Our roster is thin, really really thin.

- Trade Nylander to fix the D? Not gonna happen. Nobody's going to want that salary added to their cap hit. People don't give away top pairing D either (which would be the cap equivalent). Again, overpaying "star" forwards is not how you build a winner. You build a winner with depth and secondary scoring power. We have a philosophical difference.   

Listen, as I've said before, we clearly value different things, different ingredients for success, and with that as the basis of our respective positions we will never agree. Perhaps you can agree with that sentence at least.

Edited January 23, 2020 by PerreaultForever

[Curt]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

It might be victory it might not. You're caught up in numbers and I am not. Edmonton has Kassian playing with McDavid to protect him and to open up ice for him. This is not a unique piece of logic. The best lines are not just about sticking scorers together, they are about line chemistry and working different parts together to create a dangerous unit. Eichel (with Oloffson or Skinner as the scorer on one side) will be a much better player with a big body on the other side that will open up ice for the other two guys as well as getting the dirty rebounds. Perry added to Getzlaf sort of thing. 

Generally, the best value in free agents is mid range players who haven't peaked yet. You can plug in a complimentary piece. I'd rather work in those missing pieces than dump money in one or two deep pockets.

To the Nylander comment, it is not a good contract. Toronto has way too much money dumped into 4 forwards and thus cannot build a D to go with them. It will keep them from playoff success. Not the road I want us to go down. 

I would be interested in discussing a couple ideas that you expressed here.

1) In what ways do you think Kassian opens up space for McDavid?  If anything, I would think it’s the other way around, with McDavid opening up space for his teammates.

The question is, how does a big body open up ice/create space for his teammates?

2)  Mid-range free agents who have not peaked yet signing good value contracts.  I don’t think this player exists to be signed.

Could you give any examples or elaborate on the type of guys you have in mind?

3) I think the Nylander contract is a good contract.  He is a very good play driver/puck carrier for them.  That ability helps Matthews specifically a great deal.  He is a very good player, if maybe not your personal favorite style of player.

At the same time, I agree that Toronto has a disproportionate amount of money tied up in those 4 forwards, and it does impede their ability to improve their defense.  However, that doesn’t mean that Nylander’s contract is bad.

Also, you are concerned about Buffalo falling into the same situation, but I don’t see that as likely.  Toronto has $40.5M invested in 4 forwards.  Even if Buffalo signed Reinhart and Olofsson to $7.5 and $6 long term deals, respectively, they would have $32.5 invested in their top 4 forwards.  A far cry from Toronto’s situation, and pretty much in line with many teams around the league.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Curt

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

What's the parameters to claim victory? I need to know. 

You? When Reinhart puts down the Conn Smythe to accept the cup from Dahlin (Jack needs to be out to prove he wasn't carrying Sam)

Forever? He's already won.

 

[LGR4GM]

I would trade any defender in Buffalo not named Dahlin for Nylander tomorrow. You're saying they can't trade that cap? Seriously?

As to the McDavid thing, you are again saying Kassian helps McDavid. He doesn't. McDavid could drag the corpse of Andrew Peter's around Peter's would produce. 

You know what would skill sets this team lacks, scoring. Trading Reinhart so you can get your favorite grit player and his 30 points is the opposite of team building. 

[sweetlou]

I like that Sam is being used on the PP in different ways...like his off wing for one timers.  This is a whole new idea Kruger has used and we have not seen before.  After reading through about five pages of comments and seeing some of the comparables of top RW, I think a 6 year $7.5-$8 million AAV is fair.  This team still needs to add some grit though and I hope this is the off season.  If we must trade a Mitts, or Risto to get a 2C then JBotts has to do it. Move Johansson to 2nd RW for next year and hope Thompson continues to develop and can be there the following year.

[PerreaultForever]

It's too early to pinpoint what guys might still be available. Or more importantly who might want to make trades for cap reasons. I also have no idea who'd actually come to Buffalo for reasonable money. If I had my way I'd sign Toffoli and trade Reinhart but I honestly don't think we can get any big name FAs to be interested in being here unless we grossly overpay them and I wouldn't do that.Having said that it doesn't mean I'd overpay Reinhart instead.  I think we'd be further ahead to add grit, make us a more desirable location to come to (by winning more and having a better team oriented culture - how about a Buffalo Stampede a la storm surge? something/anything to change things.) and have Cozens added sooner than later. 

The cap becomes a problem when you have to pay Dahlin and Cozens and ? whoever else has made us good in a few years while you already have so much locked into a guy like Sam. If no one develops into a big money star it won't matter anyway, but long term no trade type deals will kill us. 

[Weave]

1 minute ago, PerreaultForever said:

It's too early to pinpoint what guys might still be available. Or more importantly who might want to make trades for cap reasons. I also have no idea who'd actually come to Buffalo for reasonable money. If I had my way I'd sign Toffoli and trade Reinhart but I honestly don't think we can get any big name FAs to be interested in being here unless we grossly overpay them and I wouldn't do that.Having said that it doesn't mean I'd overpay Reinhart instead.  I think we'd be further ahead to add grit, make us a more desirable location to come to (by winning more and having a better team oriented culture - how about a Buffalo Stampede a la storm surge? something/anything to change things.) and have Cozens added sooner than later. 

The cap becomes a problem when you have to pay Dahlin and Cozens and ? whoever else has made us good in a few years while you already have so much locked into a guy like Sam. If no one develops into a big money star it won't matter anyway, but long term no trade type deals will kill us. 

Signing Toffoli and moving Sam gets you status quo.  JBott needs to find a way to add, not shuffle the cards.

[PerreaultForever]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I would trade any defender in Buffalo not named Dahlin for Nylander tomorrow. You're saying they can't trade that cap? Seriously?

extremely difficult. propose a few possibilities. I doubt they are realistic. (offering mediocre defenders isn't realistic)

Just now, Weave said:

Signing Toffoli and moving Sam gets you status quo.  JBott needs to find a way to add, not shuffle the cards.

No. Different type of player.

[Curt]

10 minutes ago, sweetlou said:

I like that Sam is being used on the PP in different ways...like his off wing for one timers.  This is a whole new idea Kruger has used and we have not seen before.  After reading through about five pages of comments and seeing some of the comparables of top RW, I think a 6 year $7.5-$8 million AAV is fair.  This team still needs to add some grit though and I hope this is the off season.  If we must trade a Mitts, or Risto to get a 2C then JBotts has to do it. Move Johansson to 2nd RW for next year and hope Thompson continues to develop and can be there the following year.

Agree totally, The team does need grit (all teams do) but it’s not like Buffalo has an excess of high skill players either.

With regards to how Sam is going used on the PP, with the new one timers and him playing away from the net front a bit more.  I think Sam has to get some credit for making that possible.  When he came into the league his shot was really bad and he wouldn’t have been any kind of threat from a one timer position on the PP.  that’s not the case any more.