GDT: Sabres at Ducks ?7p PT

[Kruppstahl]

If last night's game against the Ducks was "us playing their game" it sure didn't seem like it.

They badly out muscled us and exposed just what a weak team we have in that regard.

I'm not sure there's a guy in the lineup who would actually drop his gloves right now, which is why they continued to antagonize us and get away with it all night long. 

Risto adds some muscle, but he won't fight.

Sadly, I'm not sure it really matters anymore as this aspect of the game is all but gone on almost all nights, at least during the regular season.

 

 

 

[Randall Flagg]

The general lack of stuff like last night in this league no longer makes me sad. It's pretty damn irritating watching Dahlin's legs crumple into the boards awkwardly during hits that shouldn't happen, or Olofsson's head bounce off the dashboard for the same reason. I'm interested in winning hockey games, not hoping my guys can take their good guys out of said hockey games for equally long stretches of time with garbage hits 

[Taro T]

38 minutes ago, inkman said:

Maybe it's time to change expectations. I have. He's not what I thought we were getting. He sets up a ton of scoring chances, for both teams. 

He's still learning the defensive side of the game at this level and also figuring out what passes can and can't get through at this level.

For his age, he's a strong kid and he does like to hit.  He'll grow into, at worst, a neutral player in his own end.  And my expectation is that in ~ 2 more years he'll actually be good in the Sabres end.  And he'll finally have a real shot as well.

But, for now, he is the 6th choice to go out on the PK (almost positive he doesn't have any PK time this season) and his bobbles of the puck under pressure get him reduced ice time when the team is trying to protect a lead.  The bobbles are very correctable for him and weren't there nearly as often last year (at least until he got gassed in the spring.  And expect most of that is due simply to the trend for 2nd year players to be asked to integrate their game far more fully into the team concept rather than just letting them play as rookies.

He seems better against odd man rushes this season but has had limited times he's faced them.

Still expecting him to be the best overall D-man the Sabres have ever had though he'll never be confused with Mike Ramsey in his own end.  But he won't be a guy the coach refuses to put out in the last minute with a lead by the time his ECL expires.

When realizing he's still a teen and will be all season unless they make the playoffs, it is amazing to see what he can accomplish.  That play to keep the puck in the zone on the power play was elite.  With all the tools he already has, he will still add strength and those little tricks that come with experience.

[Randall Flagg]

So Vlad confirms that Ritchie was mad about the check he threw. If anyone missed it, it was a tiny reverse check with the elbow down, and Vlad is at least 4 inches shorter than Nick, so there was absolutely nothing wrong with the hit

Ritchie is such a baby

[Randall Flagg]

The encouraging thing about Dahlin's bad defense is that almost all of his bad defense involves using the body, be it on the boards or in front of the net. He's a wizard with reading passes and using his stick to intercept them, or using stickhandling to shield guys trying to take it from him. 

It's entirely possible that ALL he needs to stop being bad defensively is a stronger body, and a normal defensive skill trajectory that relies solely on practice he's already doing, and the passing of a lot of time.

[Doohickie]

48 minutes ago, LabattBlue said:

Didn’t see or hear the game but a little disappointing to look at the box score, see that the Sabres jumped out to a 2-0 lead and then give up a goal at the end of the 1st period, and another at the start of the 2nd period. 

They actually allowed two goals at the end of the first.  Krueger challenged the first one for offsides and won the challenge.  The Ducks came right back down and scored.

[Kruppstahl]

Ritchie fined 4 grand for roughing up Sobotka!  Hell, I'd pay 4 grand for a chance to rough up Sobotka! 

Money well spent!
 

https://wgr550.radio.com/articles/news/ducks-forward-gets-fined-attack-sobotka

[darksabre]

[Thorny]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Krueger gets it. 

 

I think Ullmark's quote was actually more representative. 

[Thorny]

4 hours ago, inkman said:

Maybe it's time to change expectations. I have. He's not what I thought we were getting. He sets up a ton of scoring chances, for both teams. 

It's your own fault for expecting a fully formed Norris winner at age 19, if you are already changing your long term expectations. 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Thorny

[Curt]

3 hours ago, Kruppstahl said:

If last night's game against the Ducks was "us playing their game" it sure didn't seem like it.

They badly out muscled us and exposed just what a weak team we have in that regard.

I'm not sure there's a guy in the lineup who would actually drop his gloves right now, which is why they continued to antagonize us and get away with it all night long. 

Risto adds some muscle, but he won't fight.

Sadly, I'm not sure it really matters anymore as this aspect of the game is all but gone on almost all nights, at least during the regular season.

During the playoffs it’s completely gone.  Absolutely no one fights during the playoffs.

[Curt]

4 hours ago, inkman said:

Maybe it's time to change expectations. I have. He's not what I thought we were getting. He sets up a ton of scoring chances, for both teams. 

He put up over 0.5 pts/gm as an 18 yr old NHL D.  He is currently at over 1 pt/gm as a 19 yr old NHL D.  He is performing at a level that I have never seen from a teenage D.  

Let’s not nit pick our good players to death.

Of course he isn’t perfect.  Almost no player is.  However, I think it’s pretty silly to decide that Dahlin won’t every be a plus defender.  Did I mention that he is 19?  Maybe, maybe he will get better.

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, Curt said:

He put up over 0.5 pts/gm as an 18 yr old NHL D.  He is currently at over 1 pt/gm as a 19 yr old NHL D.  He is performing at a level that I have never seen from a teenage D.  

Let’s not nit pick our good players to death.

Of course he isn’t perfect.  Almost no player is.  However, I think it’s pretty silly to decide that Dahlin won’t every be a plus defender.  Did I mention that he is 19?  Maybe, maybe he will get better.

Ya. I mean, early in Reinhart's 4th post draft season (his 3rd played), at 22, he started the season not even looking like an NHL player, before turning the corner in the new year. How much is Dahlin going to develop in 2/3 years? From the starting point of, playing the position at 18 as well or better than anyone ever has. If playing the position as well as anyone has ever played it at that age is not reaching expectations, I don't understand the expectations. 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Thorny

[inkman]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Ya. I mean, early in Reinhart's 4th post draft season (his 3rd played), at 22, he started the season not even looking like an NHL player, before turning the corner in the new year. How much is Dahlin going to develop in 2/3 years? From the starting point of, playing the position at 18 as well or better than anyone ever has. If playing the position as well as anyone has ever played it at that age is not reaching expectations, I don't understand the expectations. 

Sam Reinhart never looked like he wasn't going to be a good NHL player. Most fans didn't see the subtitles if his game and understand how it would translate once he was seasoned. 

But inkman, isn't that exactly what you aren't doing with Dahlin?  No. 

He continues to make mistakes I only saw from the likes of our tank level D men. Putting the puck right on the oppositions stick leading immediately to a legit scoring chance. 

He was drafted ***** first overall. He was described as generational. The best D prospect since Bobby Orr. 

My expectation is to not be shocked every single game at how often he's creating for the other team. 

I see his offensive talents. His lack of shot and questionable decision making, are making it difficult for me to appreciate all those generational talents. 

My expectation is to watch one game without being horrified at multiple things he's doing on the ice. 

I'm sure he'll be great.  Just a little buyers remorse.  

[Thorny]

31 minutes ago, inkman said:

Sam Reinhart never looked like he wasn't going to be a good NHL player. Most fans didn't see the subtitles if his game and understand how it would translate once he was seasoned. 

But inkman, isn't that exactly what you aren't doing with Dahlin?  No. 

He continues to make mistakes I only saw from the likes of our tank level D men. Putting the puck right on the oppositions stick leading immediately to a legit scoring chance. 

He was drafted ***** first overall. He was described as generational. The best D prospect since Bobby Orr. 

My expectation is to not be shocked every single game at how often he's creating for the other team. 

I see his offensive talents. His lack of shot and questionable decision making, are making it difficult for me to appreciate all those generational talents. 

My expectation is to watch one game without being horrified at multiple things he's doing on the ice. 

I'm sure he'll be great.  Just a little buyers remorse.  

Sam was BRUTAL in late 2017. Significantly less of an impact player at 22 than Dahlin is now and even at 18. 

Sam had 1 point in December that year. Sam had 11 points in 38 games before January 1 that season. A whopping 24 point pace for a 2nd overall pick, first forward drafted. And as mentioned, that was the FOURTH season post draft for him. 

Edit - Also, when did Dahlin not look like he was going to be a good NHL player?? His positive impacts, statistically, far outweigh his negative impacts. He was one of our best players last year - it's about the aggregate. He makes mistakes, yes, of course, but if the sum total is so far positive, I struggle to see why it's an issue, particularly when he's going to iron those things out only being 19. 

I honestly think the lunch pail, no big mistakes, no contributions, net neutral (MAYBE?) Sobotka type player is the preference for some. Yes Dahlin makes mistakes, but it's because of who he is that alllllll that positive stuff is happening, too. 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Thorny

[Curt]

5 minutes ago, inkman said:

Sam Reinhart never looked like he wasn't going to be a good NHL player. Most fans didn't see the subtitles if his game and understand how it would translate once he was seasoned. 

But inkman, isn't that exactly what you aren't doing with Dahlin?  No. 

He continues to make mistakes I only saw from the likes of our tank level D men. Putting the puck right on the oppositions stick leading immediately to a legit scoring chance. 

He was drafted ***** first overall. He was described as generational. The best D prospect since Bobby Orr. 

My expectation is to not be shocked every single game at how often he's creating for the other team. 

I see his offensive talents. His lack of shot and questionable decision making, are making it difficult for me to appreciate all those generational talents. 

My expectation is to watch one game without being horrified at multiple things he's doing on the ice. 

I'm sure he'll be great.  Just a little buyers remorse.  

Reinhart looked absolutely terrible during his 9 game tryout at age 18/19.  He could barely stay on his feet against NHL opposition.  I’m barely being hyperbolic here.  Many were very worried about his future prospects after watching those 9 games.

If your expectation for Dahlin was that he would immediately be one of the top 5 D in the league as a teen then, yes adjust your expectations.  
 

He is in fact ONLY the best teenage D of the past 30 years.

[woods-racer]

13 minutes ago, Curt said:

Reinhart looked absolutely terrible during his 9 game tryout at age 18/19.  He could barely stay on his feet against NHL opposition.  I’m barely being hyperbolic here.  Many were very worried about his future prospects after watching those 9 games.

If your expectation for Dahlin was that he would immediately be one of the top 5 D in the league as a teen then, yes adjust your expectations.  
 

He is in fact ONLY the best teenage D of the past 30 years.

I would agree he is the best offensive teenage D-man of the last 30 years.

I also agree he will grow to be more defensively responsible. We have to also put into perspective that not long ago (10 years ?) no GM, no matter how high they were drafted, would ever play a teenage defensemen.

 

[Randall Flagg]

34 minutes ago, inkman said:

He was drafted ***** first overall. He was described as generational. The best D prospect since Bobby Orr. 

 

Not by everyone! I said I'd love for him to have the same career for us that Seth Jones is going to put together for Columbus. I was taken behind the woodshed on that one 

Of course, I'm likely a bigger Jones fan than everyone 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Randall Flagg

[Thorny]

8 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Not by everyone! I said I'd love for him to have the same career for us that Seth Jones is going to put together for Columbus. I was taken behind the woodshed on that one 

It's still ridiculous. It took Jones 6 seasons to put up a stat total equal to what Dahlin did at 18. Let's compare them at the same ages, please. Jones isn't close to the prospect Dahlin was, he didn't have close to the first year Dahlin had, he's didn't have the second year Dahlin is having, and it's exceptionally unlikely Dahlin doesn't develop into a significantly better player considering their year over year trajectory. 

I mean, he's already what Jones is offensively. We expect Dahlin to round out his game defensively, but if his offensive ceiling has already plateaued, and he ends up Seth Jones in a couple years, I'd say it's an abject failure of development, and a finish at about what his basement level floor was projected to be. 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Thorny

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

I would agree he is the best offensive teenage D-man of the last 30 years.

I also agree he will grow to be more defensively responsible. We have to also put into perspective that not long ago (10 years ?) no GM, no matter how high they were drafted, would ever play a teenage defensemen.

 

This is fair. And if Dahlin had the defensive skills to match what he's doing on offence right now, he'd be the best defender in the world at 19. Even McDavid wasn't the best forward in the world at 19, and if anyone is generational, it's him.

[woods-racer]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

This is fair. And if Dahlin had the defensive skills to match what he's doing on offence right now, he'd be the best defender in the world at 19. Even McDavid wasn't the best forward in the world at 19, and if anyone is generational, it's him.

But, Ink has a valid point also.

He needs to get much better to be generational. McDavid progressed each year and Dahlin needs to progress this year for there to still remain a valid comparison of the two.

 

[Randall Flagg]

16 minutes ago, Thorny said:

It's still ridiculous. It took Jones 6 seasons to put up a stat total equal to what Dahlin did at 18. Let's compare them at the same ages, please. Jones isn't close to the prospect Dahlin was, he didn't have close to the first year Dahlin had, he's didn't have the second year Dahlin is having, and it's exceptionally unlikely Dahlin doesn't develop into a significantly better player considering their year over year trajectory. 

I mean, he's already what Jones is offensively. We expect Dahlin to round out his game defensively, but if his offensive ceiling has already plateaued, and he ends up Seth Jones in a couple years, I'd say it's an abject failure of development, and a finish at about what his basement level floor was projected to be. 

My view is that Seth Jones will end his career with 2-3 Norris Trophies. 

I stand by my view at the time that I will be very happy if Dahlin collects the same amount, and has the same type of career that I project from Seth Jones. 

I didn't say, nor am I saying here, that they ever were or should be viewed the same way at the same age.

Jones has never shown the propensity for mind-melting gaffes that Dahlin does a couple times per period.

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

But, Ink has a valid point also.

He needs to get much better to be generational. McDavid progressed each year and Dahlin needs to progress this year for there to still remain a valid comparison of the two.

 

The point is that Dahlin had a better first season relative to the position, all-time, than McDavid did. Of course Dahlin still needs to progress, he is, just like McDavid did, and is.

[Thorny]

20 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

My view is that Seth Jones will end his career with 2-3 Norris Trophies. 

I stand by my view at the time that I will be very happy if Dahlin collects the same amount, and has the same type of career that I project from Seth Jones. 

I didn't say, nor am I saying here, that they ever were or should be viewed the same way at the same age.

Jones has never shown the propensity for mind-melting gaffes that Dahlin does a couple times per period.

So Jones is better early in their careers? Just different? I mean, he was a -23 his first season, to Dahlin's -13. Plus minus is bad and all that, but I'm sure there were a few giveaways in there. 25 points to Dahlin's 44. Dahlin on Buffalo, Seth's defence no doubt aided by Nashville. 

Would you say your view of Seth Jones is generally higher than the league's as a whole? I don't think the layman would consider Seth Jones as a successful result for Dahlin. Cause it sounds like you are expecting the fact that Dahlin was, inarguably, a much better player than Seth Jones was entering the league to be a trend that diminishes as both players grow. Dahlin was also a full year younger. 

Not affording or projecting Dahlin to have the same relative growth as Jones did for some reason. Jones is also 25, he's going to need to start adding to that Norris total if he's going to get to 3. I don't think he's ever been nominated. 

The juxtaposition of a player as all-time good at 18 as Dahlin was, with lower projected relative-development expectations than another, less talented player, seems odd, to me. 

Edited October 17, 2019 by Thorny

[Curt]

33 minutes ago, woods-racer said:

I would agree he is the best offensive teenage D-man of the last 30 years.

I also agree he will grow to be more defensively responsible. We have to also put into perspective that not long ago (10 years ?) no GM, no matter how high they were drafted, would ever play a teenage defensemen.

Ok.  You tell me what 18/19 yr old D was better.

Also, coaches absolutely did play teenage defensemen 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago.  I would say probably even more often than they do today.

Edited October 17, 2019 by Curt