50 for 50 - Best Sabre Players of All-Time

[SwampD]

13 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

That doesn't make Peca a better hockey player nor doesn't it make him a better hockey player for us.  It just means he was a leader of a Hasek anchored team.  I'm sorry but Briere, Drury, Vanek and Pommers all did more for this franchise.   

Not sure if I agree with this. Peca was way more important to the success of that team than he was given credit for and it showed when he left.

[Weave]

Peca and Briere played 4 seasons for the Sabres.  Drury played 3.  None of the 3 did enough in that period of time to be on my top 20 list.  Peca comes closest.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Weave

[Eleven]

37 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Not sure if I agree with this. Peca was way more important to the success of that team than he was given credit for and it showed when he left.

Remember that?  The fight over half a million?  So, so silly on both sides.

[tom webster]

2 hours ago, Eleven said:

Remember that?  The fight over half a million?  So, so silly on both sides.

Yes, trading Peca set this franchise back a few years.

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 hours ago, tom webster said:

Yes, trading Peca set this franchise back a few years.

I'm not sure it did.

We got Pyatt and Connolly in traded in 2001.  We then acquired Drury and Briere to go with a stocked Amerks squad and if it wasn't for D injuries we probably win the Cup in 05-06.  

[SwampD]

7 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'm not sure it did.

We got Pyatt and Connolly in traded in 2001.  We then acquired Drury and Briere to go with a stocked Amerks squad and if it wasn't for D injuries we probably win the Cup in 05-06.  

So you agree that it set us back 6 years, then.

Edited November 4, 2019 by SwampD

[GASabresIUFAN]

16 minutes ago, SwampD said:

So you agree that it set us back 6 years, then.

Not at all.  The team won 46 games on 00-01 with Hasek and Satan, but no Peca.  With Peca we won only 35 and 37 games the prior two seasons 

We traded Hasek that off-season and the team suffered somewhat with 35, 27 and 37 wins as Miller and the gang developed.  

Year 4 post Hasek was the lockout and year 5 we contended for the Cup.

Losing Peca set us back not at all.  We were, because of Hasek and Satan, as good or better with him as without him. 

I’m sorry but the legend of Peca is better then the actual player.  He never lead the team in scoring (Satan did it 6 straight years) he topped out at 56 pts was only here 5 seasons.

Peca: 363gm 96g 121a 217pts

Pominville : 733g 217g 304a 521 pts

Vanek: 598 gm 254 243a 497 pts

Satan: 578gm 224g 233a 456pts

In Peca’s best season, Satan scored 40 goals. Peca is a top 30 player for us because of his mix of scoring, grit and leadership, but he wasn’t nearly as good as the 3 guys above.  Without Hasek and the Cup run that team was mediocre at best.

[SwampD]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

Not at all.  The team won 46 games on 00-01 with Hasek and Satan, but no Peca.  With Peca we won only 35 and 37 games the prior two seasons 

We traded Hasek that off-season and the team suffered somewhat with 35, 27 and 37 wins as Miller and the gang developed.  

Year 4 post Hasek was the lockout and year 5 we contended for the Cup.

Losing Peca set us back not at all.  We were, because of Hasek and Satan, as good or better with him as without him. 

I’m sorry but the legend of Peca is better then the actual player.  He never lead the team in scoring (Satan did it 6 straight years) he topped out at 56 pts was only here 5 seasons.

Peca: 363gm 96g 121a 217pts

Pominville : 733g 217g 304a 521 pts

Vanek: 598 gm 254 243a 497 pts

Satan: 578gm 224g 233a 456pts

In Peca’s best season, Satan scored 40 goals. Peca is a top 30 player for us because of his mix of scoring, grit and leadership, but he wasn’t nearly as good as the 3 guys above.  Without Hasek and the Cup run that team was mediocre at best.

We go back to the cup if Peca is on the 00-01 team. It was the reason Hasek left, and we sucked until we came out of the lockout. Any way you slice it, it set us back.

[#freejame]

People loved Peca because he personified the Buffalo spirit and attitude. It’s as easy as that. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

11 minutes ago, SwampD said:

We go back to the cup if Peca is on the 00-01 team. It was the reason Hasek left, and we sucked until we came out of the lockout. Any way you slice it, it set us back.

The win totals for the team don’t support the assertion. 
35 and 37 with Peca 

46, 35, 27 and 37 without him

2 minutes ago, #freejame said:

People loved Peca because he personified the Buffalo spirit and attitude. It’s as easy as that. 

So did Rob Ray and Patrick Keleta 

[Taro T]

12 hours ago, tom webster said:

Yes, trading Peca set this franchise back a few years.

Especially considering the way the Peca contract and then trade happened is WHY Hasek said "trade me, right f###ing now" then absolutely it did.

Had they had him, Iginla, or other comparable value on the roster in '01 they overcome the 2 fluke plays against the Pens and win it all that year.  But they didn't even add youth in that season.  They waited until the next to conserve cash hoping their house of cards wouldn't fall.  And Dom said "#### it."

 Losing both, they were toast.

[SwampD]

41 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The win totals for the team don’t support the assertion. 
35 and 37 with Peca 

46, 35, 27 and 37 without him

So did Rob Ray and Patrick Keleta 

You're missing the point. I'm saying that that 46 would have been 50+ if they had Peca. Not signing Peca also showed Hasek that management was not willing to do what was needed to ice a team he deserved in front of him causing him to want out.

EDIT: and I don't think it's a coincedence that he was on another team that went to the SCFs and most likely would have won if Pronger wasn't Pronger.

Edited November 4, 2019 by SwampD

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, SwampD said:

You're missing the point. I'm saying that that 46 would have been 50+ if they had Peca. Not signing Peca also showed Hasek that management was not willing to do what was needed to ice a team he deserved in front of him causing him to want out.

EDIT: and I don't think it's a coincedence that he was on another team that went to the SCFs and most likely would have won if Pronger wasn't Pronger.

I didn’t miss your point.  The Sabres with Peca in the lineup the previous years weren’t as good.  I don’t think you can make the assumption that the team in 2001 would have been even better with him.  His absence created opportunities for others and they stepped up.  You take Hasek off the 5 Peca teams and none make the playoffs.

[SwampD]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

I didn’t miss your point.  The Sabres with Peca in the lineup the previous years weren’t as good.  I don’t think you can make the assumption that the team in 2001 would have been even better with him.  His absence created opportunities for others and they stepped up.  You take Hasek off the 5 Peca teams and none make the playoffs.

Red herring. You take Hasek off the 00-01 team, they aren't getting 46 wins.

It's your opinion, i respect it. I just disagree.

[dudacek]

Peca was not only was captain of one of the most successful editions of the franchise, he was among the best hitters and best defensive players in the world. 

He was a better hockey player and a better Sabre than the others being discussed here. Longevity factors are the only things that make it a conversation.

[Taro T]

24 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I didn’t miss your point.  The Sabres with Peca in the lineup the previous years weren’t as good. I don’t think you can make the assumption that the team in 2001 would have been even better with him. His absence created opportunities for others and they stepped up.  You take Hasek off the 5 Peca teams and none make the playoffs.

You absolutely can make that assumption every single time.  That '00-'01 team had Gilmour and Andreychuk for the full year along with Dumont and added Heinze and Audette for the stretch run. 

The teams that Peca played on didn't have anywhere near that level of talent in front of Hasek.

Having Peca to go against the Lemieux' of the world would have freed up Brown to do his thing at the offensive end of the ice and would've made Barnes job easier too.

This was a cap-less NHL; having Peca didn't mean they couldn't afford to also ice Gilmour (who the Hawks ate half of the contract btw) and Andreychuk.  It just meant they had a center spine of Peca, Brown, Barnes, and Grafton with Gilmour available as well.  With Peca and Hasek both on that '00-'01 team that now had both C depth and wingers that could score (Satan, Gilmour, Andreychuk, & Audette) and grind (Heinze, Dumont, & Varada along with a pre-Chara'd rookie Hamel)  they would easily have been the best Sabres team of that dead puck era.

And we would've seen a parade as they would've got by the Pens and then they owned the Devils (Brodeur had fits with Afinogenov) and they'd beat the Abs in Colorado without Peca OR Dom.

[GASabresIUFAN]

No you can’t assume that.  Moves were made to replace Peca.  

[tom webster]

3 hours ago, SwampD said:

We go back to the cup if Peca is on the 00-01 team. It was the reason Hasek left, and we sucked until we came out of the lockout. Any way you slice it, it set us back.

Exactly this. 

[SwampD]

45 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No you can’t assume that.  Moves were made to replace Peca.  

Even Hasek disagrees with you. Otherwise, why would he demand a trade?

[GASabresIUFAN]

52 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Even Hasek disagrees with you. Otherwise, why would he demand a trade?

Because he didn’t get along with management and the team didn’t have the horses with Peca or without to win it all.

[Eleven]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Because he didn’t get along with management and the team didn’t have the horses with Peca or without to win it all.

The dispute with management already had been resolved to his satisfaction, and the team most definitely did have "the horses with Peca" to win it all.  I wish this site were around at the time; it very likely would have affirmed this.

[Taro T]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

No you can’t assume that.  Moves were made to replace Peca.  

No they weren't.  They were stl negotiating with him through December. 

ALL of those guys except for Heinze (LW) and Audette (RW) had been there from the beginning of the season.  Your contention that they were brought in to replace Peca is silly at best.

 

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Because he didn’t get along with management and the team didn’t have the horses with Peca or without to win it all.

?

 

[stenbaro]

On 11/4/2019 at 1:07 PM, tom webster said:

Exactly this. 

Correct sir. That was the 2nd most ridiculous front office move the Sabres achieved.

[calti]

On 11/3/2019 at 3:27 PM, Weave said:

Peca and Briere played 4 seasons for the Sabres.  Drury played 3.  None of the 3 did enough in that period of time to be on my top 20 list.  Peca comes closest.

Briere was the most talented of those 3 and magic in the playoffs.Peca was an enforcer type at a scrawny 180.Drury was solid and great in the playoffs.

I would say that they are in the 20-35 range.

On 11/5/2019 at 3:38 PM, stenbaro said:

Correct sir. That was the 2nd most ridiculous front office move the Sabres achieved.

a solid 2nd. i think lindy is still in shock from #1

[GASabresIUFAN]

I have closed this poll.  I'm sorry for not moving on sooner, but my Mom passed away on Monday after a very long illness and it's been a pretty horrible week.  The Sabres winning today will help.

Anyway.  I was planning to run a tiebreaker poll, but members have made that unnecessary.

17. Turgeon

18. Peca

19. Vanek

20. Pominville

I will keep the remaining players up for the next poll as all but Roy received votes.

The Next poll will be for 21-25.  Vote for 5.