50 for 50 - Best Sabre Players of All-Time

[North Buffalo]

4 hours ago, Eleven said:

He probably doesn't belong in the top 50 as a player.  Great leader, great at attacking Billy Smith, good defensively, pretty average at everything else.

I'm beginning to think that Jim Schoenfeld is criminally underrated here on SS, but I haven't voted recently.

Had to vote for him... my favorite player along with Gilbert growing up.

[Eleven]

2 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

Had to vote for him... my favorite player along with Gilbert growing up.

Yep--I know you're a Schoeny fan.  How often do you play his music?

[GASabresIUFAN]

Progress report

I'm going to close this vote after tonight's game and have a fresh poll for the weekend.

Right now Miller (11 votes) and Schoenfeld (10) lead the way for slots 12 and 13.  

However we have 3 players tied with 7 votes a piece and I'd love to break this.  the 3 tied are Luce, Hawerchuk and Foligno with Turgeon (6) and Briere (5) still in the running for atop 15 slot.

If you haven't voted please do so. Only 17 members have currently voted.  

[GASabresIUFAN]

I have put up a tie breaker poll for 14, 15 & 16.  Please vote once.  I'll close this poll Sunday night and open 17-20 on Monday.

[mjd1001]

20 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Progress report

I'm going to close this vote after tonight's game and have a fresh poll for the weekend.

Right now Miller (11 votes) and Schoenfeld (10) lead the way for slots 12 and 13.  

However we have 3 players tied with 7 votes a piece and I'd love to break this.  the 3 tied are Luce, Hawerchuk and Foligno with Turgeon (6) and Briere (5) still in the running for atop 15 slot.

If you haven't voted please do so. Only 17 members have currently voted.  

Maybe the mods won't like this idea...but everytime there is a new vote, maybe a new topic should be started (the first post can be the results of the last vote, and a chance to vote in a new one).

Myself, and I'm sure many other 'casual' members of the forum...once we see a topic and vote once, we think that is it.  I might look back at that thread to see the results, but often times I think the voting is a 'once and done' per post and move on.

[Zamboni]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

Maybe the mods won't like this idea...but everytime there is a new vote, maybe a new topic should be started (the first post can be the results of the last vote, and a chance to vote in a new one).

Myself, and I'm sure many other 'casual' members of the forum...once we see a topic and vote once, we think that is it.  I might look back at that thread to see the results, but often times I think the voting is a 'once and done' per post and move on.

I thought that since it started. But ?‍♂️

And every new thread has an accumulating “results” list in the 1st post.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Is it really that hard to check the thread when I post the schedule each time?

[North Buffalo]

On 10/24/2019 at 8:24 PM, Eleven said:

Yep--I know you're a Schoeny fan.  How often do you play his music?

Not really but play the Koharski video lots... have another donut you fat pig!

[Eleven]

The guy in the HHOF is significantly trailing the two role players who are not.

[GASabresIUFAN]

15 minutes ago, Eleven said:

The guy in the HHOF is significantly trailing the two role players who are not.

Yes, but it’s a reflection of their time in Buffalo, not what they did for their careers.  Grant Fuhr is a HOF goaltender, but he isn’t a top 50 Sabre. I agree he is in our top 20 and will be.  He’ll be 16th behind two “role” player who contributed more to the Sabres partly do to longevity here and leadership.

[tom webster]

33 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Yes, but it’s a reflection of their time in Buffalo, not what they did for their careers.  Grant Fuhr is a HOF goaltender, but he isn’t a top 50 Sabre. I agree he is in our top 20 and will be.  He’ll be 16th behind two “role” player who contributed more to the Sabres partly do to longevity here and leadership.

But you continue to diminish what Hawerchuk and Turgeon did while they were here, which was significant.

I’m not saying your are wrong in your valuation, I am saying that the argument is much tougher.

In addition, somehow Foligno gets a pass on the team’s playoff futility while Turgeon seems to get the blame.

I think would be surprised by Turgeon’s playoff numbers. I know they would be surprised if they were able to watch the series his first two years and see how much he controlled play and almost willed them out of the drought,

Edited October 28, 2019 by tom webster

[GASabresIUFAN]

This is where this gets hard. Vanek, Pommers, Drury, Peca, Briere, Eichel, Turgeon, Hawerchuk, plus D like McKee, Korab and Hajt all should imho be in this area.  How one values scoring, goals, longevity, defensive play, leadership, and team success all factor in. Also where do we slot in Playfair, Bodger and Campbell?

For example Vanek, Pommers, Drury and Briere. These guys were all part of the same era.  Briere and Drury were the leaders but were only here a very short time, but the team was a huge success while they were here, but Vanek and Pommers were kids on those teams and went on to much longer careers here and are much higher on the goals, games and points list then Drury and Briere.  Pommers also served as Captain and had a nice encore. 

For me I’d list them Briere, Vanek, Pommers, then Drury.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Eleven said:

The guy in the HHOF is significantly trailing the two role players who are not.

Luce and Foligno are hardly role players.

Foligno scored 40 goals in a season, is 3rd all-time in Sabre GWG, 2nd in PMs when that was considered a positive stat, and is the best power forward in franchise history.

Luce is the best two-way centre in franchise history.

Love Ducky and he was a better player, but he played here for five seasons and this is a list of best Sabres.

[dudacek]

I will say that Hawerchuk’s play in the ‘93 playoffs (14 points in 8 games while Mogilny and LaFontaine were falling to injuries) was probably the most dominating sustained performance I’ve ever seen by a Sabre player, outside of Dom.

[Eleven]

8 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Luce and Foligno are hardly role players.

Foligno scored 40 goals in a season, is 3rd all-time in Sabre GWG, 2nd in PMs when that was considered a positive stat, and is the best power forward in franchise history.

Luce is the best two-way centre in franchise history.

Love Ducky and he was a better player, but he played here for five seasons and this is a list of best Sabres.

I probably overstated the cases against Luce and Foligno, but Michael Peca was the best two-way forward in team history.

[North Buffalo]

20 minutes ago, Eleven said:

I probably overstated the cases against Luce and Foligno, but Michael Peca was the best two-way forward in team history.

Really, I like Peca but alway thought Rammer and Luce were better.

[dudacek]

48 minutes ago, Eleven said:

I probably overstated the cases against Luce and Foligno, but Michael Peca was the best two-way forward in team history.

Arguing against another all-time favourite in Peca, but I doubt he was better than Donny in the shutdown role, and he couldn’t hold a candle to him offensively.

Mike’s best season points-wise would be sixth-best for Don. 

[tom webster]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Arguing against another all-time favourite in Peca, but I doubt he was better than Donny in the shutdown role, and he couldn’t hold a candle to him offensively.

Mike’s best season points-wise would be sixth-best for Don. 

You have to remember the era. Peca’s stats came  in the dead puck era. I think Luce gets the edge but it’s close.

Edited October 28, 2019 by tom webster

[Pimlach]

6 hours ago, Eleven said:

The guy in the HHOF is significantly trailing the two role players who are not.

Yes, Hawerchuk was a great player.  Was his contribution in his years with the Sabres bigger than Foligno and Luce?   Stats could say yes, as he was still very productive.   My heart says no, at least not to me.  

These polls are best Sabres players of all time, I factor in a “Sabre factor”   Looking at his entire NHL career Hawerchuk is easily in the top 5 along with HOF players Hasek, Gil, Patty, and Horton, and he is ahead of Andreychuck and Housley.  

Luce and Foligno are much more than role players to me.  

 

[Weave]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

I will say that Hawerchuk’s play in the ‘93 playoffs (14 points in 8 games while Mogilny and LaFontaine were falling to injuries) was probably the most dominating sustained performance I’ve ever seen by a Sabre player, outside of Dom.

I've got Foligno ahead of Hawerchuck, but only because of longevity.

4 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

Really, I like Peca but alway thought Rammer and Luce were better.

IN an era that included Bob Gainey, GOAT defensive center, Ramsay and Luce both won Selke awards.  And both put up points.  I've got both ahead of Peca as 2 way centers, but it's really close.  Peca was the Ryan O'Reilly of his day.

 

Out of what's left after this vote is closed, it's criminal if Turgeon and Hawerchuck aren't in.  And after that I think Vanek has to get serious attention.

[Pimlach]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

Arguing against another all-time favourite in Peca, but I doubt he was better than Donny in the shutdown role, and he couldn’t hold a candle to him offensively.

Mike’s best season points-wise would be sixth-best for Don. 

The era was mentioned and let’s also add the leadership and toughness that Peca brought, matched by not many (Gare, Shoeny, Foligno).   But yes, Luce was amazing as a shut down center, PK, and a solid scorer too.  

I always thought both Luce and Ramsay were equals to Bob Gainey in defensive play.   Luce was at the end of his peak when Selke’s became a thing but Gainey’s first one could have gone to Luce.   Not much separated Gainey and Ramsay except for 4 Selkes to 1.  Rammer had  13 more goals, and 165 more points  in 90 less games.  

[calti]

On 10/7/2019 at 9:20 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

I have edited the thread to make everything consistent using “Best”.  No question Gilbert is “Mr. Sabre”, but the Dominator is the best player ever to play for the Sabres.  Hasek is arguably the best player ever to play his position.  Gilbert isn’t even close.

I’m using “best” because there are players like Briere and Drury who played here for only a short time but made a lasting impact.  I’d like to see where they fit it. 

Gilbert coulda been....

17 hours ago, Pimlach said:

The era was mentioned and let’s also add the leadership and toughness that Peca brought, matched by not many (Gare, Shoeny, Foligno).   But yes, Luce was amazing as a shut down center, PK, and a solid scorer too.  

I always thought both Luce and Ramsay were equals to Bob Gainey in defensive play.   Luce was at the end of his peak when Selke’s became a thing but Gainey’s first one could have gone to Luce.   Not much separated Gainey and Ramsay except for 4 Selkes to 1.  Rammer had  13 more goals, and 165 more points  in 90 less games.  

Peca was one of the baddest/toughest 180 LB guys I have ever seen

[calti]

On 10/8/2019 at 4:31 PM, Thorny said:

Ehh...what are the numbers on Cs in the Hall vs Goalies?

To me the easiest distinction is Greatest vs Best. Removes a bit of the confusion, and it's why these list are usually titled with "Greatest" as it allows a bunch of factors to be considered whereas "best" seems to speak directly and specifically to talent. Hasek was still the best Sabre, no one dominated like he did while wearing the jersey. But Gil was arguably the greatest Sabre, for the reasons you listed.

Connor McDavid, surely, is a better hockey player than Gretzky ever was, if you lined them up side by side (not speaking relatively, here). But he's not close to Wayne's greatness yet. 

This poll says Best though, and Hasek was the best, so I voted Hasek. 

Thorny---lets all hope you are just joking about McDavid vs gretzky. That is laughable

[calti]

On 10/14/2019 at 7:20 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

Hawerchuk, Turgeon, Eichel, Briere, Drury, Zhitnik, Bodger and others seem to be in the next level.

Turgeon was a great scorer...But was also one of those guys that floated around and didnt do much 2 way playing. 

I saw him play vs the sharks in the cow palace----looked like he was taking a skate in central park

[#freejame]

23 minutes ago, calti said:

Thorny---lets all hope you are just joking about McDavid vs gretzky. That is laughable

McDavid is almost certainly a more skilled hockey player than Wayne Gretzky in every way less IQ