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Krueger on WGR 10/1/19

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Something of note that he said is that he doesn't think he is fair to judge a player when you don't know what he was asked to do. 

I've been a big fan of this line of thinking for a long time.

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14 minutes ago, SDS said:

Something of note that he said is that he doesn't think he is fair to judge a player when you don't know what he was asked to do. 

I've been a big fan of this line of thinking for a long time.

So, Sobotka was asked to make bad passes?  Huh?

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1 minute ago, Taro T said:

So, Sobotka was asked to make bad passes?  Huh?

Maybe.  After all RK doesn't know, no reason we should know.  I mean, they fired Housley, so perhaps he was telling them to make bad passes.  Albeit, perhaps not directly.  🙂

 

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6 minutes ago, LTS said:

they fired Housley, so perhaps he was telling them to make bad passes.  Albeit, perhaps not directly. 

It could have been XHCPH's system/structure.  Maybe it just limited passing windows too much.  It seems like so far, I'm seeing a lot of "area" passes in the preseason, but the team is in motion and they know what area they're supposed to be in, so it works.  Players are not being asked to thread a needle as much.

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23 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

It could have been XHCPH's system/structure.  Maybe it just limited passing windows too much.  It seems like so far, I'm seeing a lot of "area" passes in the preseason, but the team is in motion and they know what area they're supposed to be in, so it works.  Players are not being asked to thread a needle as much.

A lot of our offensive potential is going to come down to if Ralph can break the chains of Sabres teams in recent history, independent of coaching staff. Though you're always limited by talent, I do think there's some degree of offensive efficiency that can be attained through proper coaching. I have no idea of Krueger has got that coaching, but I don't have evidence he doesn't yet either. All of those things I saw other teams doing in that summer video, that I couldn't put names on, but I've never seen us do. Coach, have our guys learn that stuff! 

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4 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

A lot of our offensive potential is going to come down to if Ralph can break the chains of Sabres teams in recent history, independent of coaching staff. Though you're always limited by talent, I do think there's some degree of offensive efficiency that can be attained through proper coaching. I have no idea of Krueger has got that coaching, but I don't have evidence he doesn't yet either. All of those things I saw other teams doing in that summer video, that I couldn't put names on, but I've never seen us do. Coach, have our guys learn that stuff! 

Ain't that the long and short of it.

This is how I always feel when I watch other non-Sabres games. It always feels like those teams, even the bad ones, are playing the game in a fundamentally different way than the Sabres have been for quite some time.

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4 minutes ago, darksabre said:

Ain't that the long and short of it.

This is how I always feel when I watch other non-Sabres games. It always feels like those teams, even the bad ones, are playing the game in a fundamentally different way than the Sabres have been for quite some time.

That was entirely what I was trying to find. You can feel it in your gut that it's happening, but this game is so hard to put parameters on. Even when I saw "stuff" I couldn't really describe how you'd make us do the "stuff." Like wtf does Bruce Cassidy and Dave freaking Hakstol know because their teams were goddamn impressive in that regard

And Hakstol and the Flyers just made me ask why we wouldn't be capable of the same thing, while we instead flounder uselessly with three forwards in the slot, none of their sticks open, none of their feet moving, while the point men fling limp wristers into shin pads off their back foot

flinging limp wristers, have fun with that one ink

Edited by Randall Flagg
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They really just need to learn how to get to, and shoot from, the front of the net, foregoing the low percentage shots from the perimeter.  If they can do that, their chances for more points this season rise substantially.

If they can also figure out how to defend shots against in the same area of their own defensive zone...then it's an easy walk into the playoffs.

Edited by ...
Batman
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2 minutes ago, ... said:

They really just need to learn how to get to, and shoot from, the front of the net, foregoing the low percentage shots from the perimeter.  If they can do that, their chances for more points this seasons rise substantially.

If they can also figure out how to defend shots against in the same area of their own defensive zone...then it's an easy walk into the playoffs.

And I already think they're nearly there defensively. 

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48 minutes ago, LTS said:

Maybe.  After all RK doesn't know, no reason we should know.  I mean, they fired Housley, so perhaps he was telling them to make bad passes.  Albeit, perhaps not directly.  🙂

 

Please.


Sobotka was arguably, demonstrably, the worst forward in the entire NHL last season.

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

Please.


Sobotka was arguably, demonstrably, the worst forward in the entire NHL last season.

 

 

 

 

But he was better than Rodrigues in pre-season, and that's all that counts for tomorrow's roster under a new coach.

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Just now, triumph_communes said:

But he was better than Rodrigues in pre-season, and that's all that counts for tomorrow's roster under a new coach.

That mindset will last about a week.  Then they will be calling for Ralph's head too.

 

 

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My formula, which I stick with because it has served me well in my own personal player evaluation, for preseason, is this:

For players who have established themselves to be anywhere from useful to great in extended NHL action, take into account 0.0% of what you see in the preseason. The reason for this is that NHLers that aren't obviously old, who achieve the level of usefulness-to-greatness, regress in any meaningful way about 0.00001% of the time.

For players who suck or haven't established this yet, let preseason games be 25-30% of the material for your evaluation and predictions for what they'll bring in the regular season. 

I'm not saying that coaches don't have more access to info or ability to process hockey stuffs than me, but this works for me and never burns me in either direction, by being fooled by bad players or reacting too harshly to good ones. 

Doing the former can lead to bad lineup decisions. Doing the latter leads to Moulson's 14 game tryout in 2017, Griffiths' presence on that same roster. 40 games with zero goals for Derek Grant. etc. 

Ralph can do what he wants but Evan Rodrigues and Vlad Sobotka cannot change my own view of them as hockey players with preseason "performances" (if contributing to zero goals for, with three against as a line in 66% offensive zone time with a 40% expected goal share, while he did the same old same old with marginally more success because it was against garbage hockey players, can be called a "positive performance")

Their NHL regular season track records and trajectories are far better both statistically and by any anecdote imaginable at predicting the players they will be the following year. The hockey is just miles ahead of preseason hockey. They both will have the opportunity to change their perceptions starting Thursday, by compiling weeks and then months of new meaningful visual and statistical data.

Edited by Randall Flagg
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15 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

My formula, which I stick with because it has served me well in my own personal player evaluation, for preseason, is this:

For players who have established themselves to be anywhere from useful to great in extended NHL action, take into account 0.0% of what you see in the preseason. The reason for this is that NHLers that aren't obviously old, who achieve the level of usefulness-to-greatness, regress in any meaningful way about 0.00001% of the time.

For players who suck or haven't established this yet, let preseason games be 25-30% of the material for your evaluation and predictions for what they'll bring in the regular season. 

I'm not saying that coaches don't have more access to info or ability to process hockey stuffs than me, but this works for me and never burns me in either direction, by being fooled by bad players or reacting too harshly to good ones. 

Doing the former can lead to bad lineup decisions. Doing the latter leads to Moulson's 14 game tryout in 2017, Griffiths' presence on that same roster. 40 games with zero goals for Derek Grant. etc. 

Ralph can do what he wants but Evan Rodrigues and Vlad Sobotka cannot change my own view of them as hockey players with preseason "performances" (if contributing to zero goals for, with three against as a line in 66% offensive zone time with a 40% expected goal share, while he did the same old same old with marginally more success because it was against garbage hockey players, can be called a "positive performance")

Their NHL regular season track records and trajectories are far better both statistically and by any anecdote imaginable at predicting the players they will be the following year. The hockey is just miles ahead of preseason hockey. They both will have the opportunity to change their perceptions starting Thursday, by compiling weeks and then months of new meaningful visual and statistical data.

Bunch of unrealistic crap here that a new coach can't take into consideration if he's going to expect any of his players to believe when he says there's an 'open competition' in camp.

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39 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

That was entirely what I was trying to find. You can feel it in your gut that it's happening, but this game is so hard to put parameters on. Even when I saw "stuff" I couldn't really describe how you'd make us do the "stuff." Like wtf does Bruce Cassidy and Dave freaking Hakstol know because their teams were goddamn impressive in that regard

And Hakstol and the Flyers just made me ask why we wouldn't be capable of the same thing, while we instead flounder uselessly with three forwards in the slot, none of their sticks open, none of their feet moving, while the point men fling limp wristers into shin pads off their back foot

flinging limp wristers, have fun with that one ink

That’s the name of my fantasy football team

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2 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Bunch of unrealistic crap here that a new coach can't take into consideration if he's going to expect any of his players to believe when he says there's an 'open competition' in camp.

You're right. It's important for guys like Thompson to believe there's an open competition, so that by the time he finds out that's bogus, he's already put in a great camp. 

Think About It Reaction GIF by Identity

Edited by Thorny
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50 minutes ago, Thorny said:

You're right. It's important for guys like Thompson to believe there's an open competition, so that by the time he finds out that's bogus, he's already put in a great camp. 

Think About It Reaction GIF by Identity

 

5 hours ago, SDS said:

Something of note that he said is that he doesn't think he is fair to judge a player when you don't know what he was asked to do. 

I've been a big fan of this line of thinking for a long time.

I think the bolded pretty much addresses your point as good as anything ever will.

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3 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Bunch of unrealistic crap here that a new coach can't take into consideration if he's going to expect any of his players to believe when he says there's an 'open competition' in camp.

I'm outlining how I evaluate players. I said in the very post you quote that I don't expect Ralph to do the same thing, with access to more information than I have.

Rather than calling it unrealistic crap after an obviously shallow skim of what I actually said, how about you explain what parts of that philosophy you don't like? It has served me incredibly well over the years in my quest to fulfill my lone hobby - understanding as much as I can about my favorite sport in the world. I'd be thrilled to flesh it out more and give more examples. 

Edited by Randall Flagg

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4 hours ago, LTS said:

Maybe.  After all RK doesn't know, no reason we should know.  I mean, they fired Housley, so perhaps he was telling them to make bad passes.  Albeit, perhaps not directly.  🙂

 

Maybe not that extreme but I firmly believe Housley ruined Scandella and he will surprise many people this year. Sobodka I don't know, but he WAS a good defensive forward once upon a time so wait and see.  The thing is, I have to take Kreuger at his word until the results prove otherwise. he might just know more than we do. 

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5 hours ago, SDS said:

Something of note that he said is that he doesn't think he is fair to judge a player when you don't know what he was asked to do. 

I've been a big fan of this line of thinking for a long time.

I understand the reasoning, but only to a degree. Taken to its logical conclusion, what you're really saying is we simply cannot know whether a player is bad. I just don't think that holds water. If it does, what are we all even doing here? 

Moreover, "I can make this player better" is pretty much what all coaches think. It's as much ego as it is any kind of sound reasoning. 

Edit: It may hold some water, but only at the margins. If a player looks average, maybe he can be a little better than that with a different coach. But at the extremes? It's an awfully tough sell to say a player who is horrible is actually okay and it was all the coach's fault. 

Edited by TrueBlueGED
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7 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

I understand the reasoning, but only to a degree. Taken to its logical conclusion, what you're really saying is we simply cannot know whether a player is bad. I just don't think that holds water. If it does, what are we all even doing here? 

Moreover, "I can make this player better" is pretty much what all coaches think. It's as much ego as it is any kind of sound reasoning. 

 

You and I can see what a player does, and pass judgement on that, but we don’t always know why. Krueger is just taking the next logical step and adding it to the equation, for a more informed opinion.

It’s just like adding analytics to the eye test.

And coaches frequently make players better, so I don’t know why they wouldn’tassume that’s possible.

It is sound reasoning.

Edited by dudacek
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Just now, dudacek said:

 

You and I can see what a player does, and pass judgement on that, but we don’t always know why. Krueger is just taking the next logical step and adding it to the equation, for a more informed opinion.

It’s just like adding analytics to the eye test.

And coaches frequently make players better, so I don’t know why they wouldn’t think that way.

Coaches do not frequently make trianwrecks better. At the margins, again, I get it. Sobotka isn't a marginal case, and his poor play dates back to an entirely different organization and coach. 

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5 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Coaches do not frequently make trianwrecks better. At the margins, again, I get it. Sobotka isn't a marginal case, and his poor play dates back to an entirely different organization and coach. 

Sobotka. Again. 🤢

Why does it always have to come back to Sobotka?

😜

Edited by dudacek

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4 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

My formula, which I stick with because it has served me well in my own personal player evaluation, for preseason, is this:

For players who have established themselves to be anywhere from useful to great in extended NHL action, take into account 0.0% of what you see in the preseason. The reason for this is that NHLers that aren't obviously old, who achieve the level of usefulness-to-greatness, regress in any meaningful way about 0.00001% of the time.

For players who suck or haven't established this yet, let preseason games be 25-30% of the material for your evaluation and predictions for what they'll bring in the regular season. 

I'm not saying that coaches don't have more access to info or ability to process hockey stuffs than me, but this works for me and never burns me in either direction, by being fooled by bad players or reacting too harshly to good ones. 

Doing the former can lead to bad lineup decisions. Doing the latter leads to Moulson's 14 game tryout in 2017, Griffiths' presence on that same roster. 40 games with zero goals for Derek Grant. etc. 

Ralph can do what he wants but Evan Rodrigues and Vlad Sobotka cannot change my own view of them as hockey players with preseason "performances" (if contributing to zero goals for, with three against as a line in 66% offensive zone time with a 40% expected goal share, while he did the same old same old with marginally more success because it was against garbage hockey players, can be called a "positive performance")

Their NHL regular season track records and trajectories are far better both statistically and by any anecdote imaginable at predicting the players they will be the following year. The hockey is just miles ahead of preseason hockey. They both will have the opportunity to change their perceptions starting Thursday, by compiling weeks and then months of new meaningful visual and statistical data.

This is exactly correct.  They are preseason games for a reason.  They don’t count in the standings for a reason.  They are equal parts tryouts, practice, and fan exhibition.  I think they have little value in player evaluation.  Even if a given player looks good/bad, how often in the regular season does a good player look bad for 3-4 games in a row?  Happens all the time, but if it happens in preseason I’m supposed to think it’s a big deal?  

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