Sobotka and the 2nd line

[Curt]

17 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

And "just ok so far" is still better than Sobotka "he's doing that very well." 

Yup, Reinhart is doing a just ok job of doing everything well, while Sobotka is doing a great job of playing decent defense with almost zero offense.  

I know which of those I would rather have.

[PerreaultForever]

10 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

And "just ok so far" is still better than Sobotka "he's doing that very well." 

After the Dallas game, they were both very good, both lines were very good, I'm happy to have both of them aren't you?

10 hours ago, Curt said:

Yup, Reinhart is doing a just ok job of doing everything well, while Sobotka is doing a great job of playing decent defense with almost zero offense.  

I know which of those I would rather have.

The bar is different for the two of them (and the pay scale next year) and the second line has chemistry. The parts/roles are fitting together and you can see the chemistry starting to show. I wouldn't change a thing about the top 2 lines right now would you? 

[Randall Flagg]

On 10/12/2019 at 12:59 PM, dudacek said:

I think Sobotka has been a drag on his line offensively. I think he he has been a boost to that line defensively.

His defensive awareness remains good, his creativity and hands remain bad, his physicality and pace have improved.

Im not sure if he has even been net neutral overall, but the fact that he might be is big improvement over last year, when he was an obvious drag. I would like to see that position upgraded, but so far he seems to be holding his own in what Ralph is asking of him.

Other than PK, I cant think of a single thing he does better than Sam. Wait, left-side draws!

Didn't see the game today (saw the pass), but this is pretty bang on how I feel. I do think he's going to be moved off the line when Tage is ready, or a trade is made, which I'm happy about as far as maximizing our scoring depth long-term goes. He was pretty good up to Thanksgiving or so last season too, so he's one of the guys with a track record of dropping off that I'll be keeping an eye on. But he deserves props for his bounce-back season to this point. And I legitimately appreciate the effort that I did not feel was there last season (it wasn't a running joke that his jerseys were dry on hfboards for months for no reason)

 

[...]

16 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Didn't see the game today (saw the pass), but this is pretty bang on how I feel. I do think he's going to be moved off the line when Tage is ready, or a trade is made, which I'm happy about as far as maximizing our scoring depth long-term goes. He was pretty good up to Thanksgiving or so last season too, so he's one of the guys with a track record of dropping off that I'll be keeping an eye on. But he deserves props for his bounce-back season to this point. And I legitimately appreciate the effort that I did not feel was there last season (it wasn't a running joke that his jerseys were dry on hfboards for months for no reason)

If he's moved off that line it's not going to be by Tage. Thompson is not the offensively-minded winger/center they're looking for per RK. Vlad's defensive game is what keeps him on that line now.

[Taro T]

24 minutes ago, ... said:

If he's moved off that line it's not going to be by Tage. Thompson is not the offensively-minded winger/center they're looking for per RK. Vlad's defensive game is what keeps him on that line now.

Don't forget, for some reason, a lot of national talking heads are very enamored with Thompson's "defensive stick.". Though we aren't particularly find of his back checking, that sentiment isn't universal.

So, could definitely see him getting groomed for that 2RW especially if the return on a D for F trade doesn't end up enticing to Botterill.   If he keeps up his O in Ra-cha-cha and can work on his D, he'll be up well before Christmas.

(Any Amerk watchers have any input on his defensive game so far this season?)

[nfreeman]

It was nice to see the joy on Vlad’s face after the Skinner goal today.  

And while it wouldn’t hurt to upgrade that spot in the lineup, ERod certainly hasn’t done anything this year to show that it should be his.  

[Curt]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

After the Dallas game, they were both very good, both lines were very good, I'm happy to have both of them aren't you?

The bar is different for the two of them (and the pay scale next year) and the second line has chemistry. The parts/roles are fitting together and you can see the chemistry starting to show. I wouldn't change a thing about the top 2 lines right now would you? 

Yes, I would replace Sobotka with a better overall player if I could.  It’s is possible that he is a better fit on that line than Sheary/Vesey/Rodrigues though.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Curt

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Don't forget, for some reason, a lot of national talking heads are very enamored with Thompson's "defensive stick.". Though we aren't particularly find of his back checking, that sentiment isn't universal.

So, could definitely see him getting groomed for that 2RW especially if the return on a D for F trade doesn't end up enticing to Botterill.   If he keeps up his O in Ra-cha-cha and can work on his D, he'll be up well before Christmas.

(Any Amerk watchers have any input on his defensive game so far this season?)

I think this is exactly what is happening with Tage; goals down there are secondary, he’ll come up when he is reliable defensively. 

[Weave]

Oh man you guys are gonna hate Bill Hoppe’s article today.

[GASabresIUFAN]

10 minutes ago, Weave said:

Oh man you guys are gonna hate Bill Hoppe’s article today.

I don't like Hoppe anyway.

[Doohickie]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

he’ll come up when he is reliable defensively. 

TAGE WILL BE FINE.

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

As long as we are going good no one is coming up or entering the lineup unless some one gets hurt.

By the way, does everyone now understand why I wanted MoJo last season when Berglund went AWOL.

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

As long as we are going good no one is coming up or entering the lineup unless done one gets hurt.

By the way, does everyone now understand why I wanted MoJo last season when Berglund went AWOL.

 

If Johansson plays a full season as a capable 2C, and we see continued development from Mittelstadt, we are laughing at centre ice when Cozens gets here. 

[triumph_communes]

Ya'll see what Krueger did with Sobotka, but don't expect the same out of Tage?

[...]

11 hours ago, Taro T said:

So, could definitely see him getting groomed for that 2RW especially if the return on a D for F trade doesn't end up enticing to Botterill.   If he keeps up his O in Ra-cha-cha and can work on his D, he'll be up well before Christmas.

(Any Amerk watchers have any input on his defensive game so far this season?)

I think Tage will come up when a winger is injured or consistently shows they are no longer contributing to the team's ability to win.  But, say, if it's Vlad who is injured, Vesey will get Vlad's spot and Tage will fill in for Vesey.  

The key to that second line isn't Vlad, it's Johansson. He's not a natural center, and RK has said explicitly that Vlad is there to fill in the defensive gaps Marcus might have.  Otherwise, they will do what they can to keep MJ and Skinner together.  The other winger needs to be defensive first, a net-neutral force offensively at least, and, ideally, a third offensive threat (which Vlad ain't).  

So, if we're trading to upgrade a player, it's going to have to be a good return to either replace Vlad and his current role, or move Vlad off that line, install a real center, and move MJ to what was effectively Vlad's role.

This is why I bolded the above, the current state of the Sabres makes things less black and white.  Victor has solved the problem of the first line.  And, of course, that fourth line isn't getting broken up.  Our D is covered.  If things continue as they are, Botterill  has options and can definitely get creative in making the roster better.

Tage and Cozens give Botterill flexibility. Tage is likely projected to be a third or second line winger.  Cozens will be a third or second line center.   With those two in the system, and Vlad "working out", Botterill might instead opt to go after a high-end prospect who can roll into the team in a season or two, after the Vesey/Vlad/Sheary-type contracts expire.

[...]

16 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Ya'll see what Krueger did with Sobotka, but don't expect the same out of Tage?

You're not understanding how RK does things. He's not whispering into Vlad's ear making him believe something.  RK is using players correctly.  Vlad can hang in the role RK has deployed him in because it's a part of Vlad's game.  The NHL defensive game, so far, was weak for Tage, so RK will not deploy Tage into a role where Tage's first priority is to be defensively responsible. 

[LGR4GM]

14 minutes ago, ... said:

 

Tage and Cozens give Botterill flexibility. Tage is likely projected to be a third or second line winger.  Cozens will be a third or second line center.   With those two in the system, and Vlad "working out", Botterill might instead opt to go after a high-end prospect who can roll into the team in a season or two, after the Vesey/Vlad/Sheary-type contracts expire.

Cozens is a very high end prospect. Vesey, Vlad, and Sheary all come off the books after this season. 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, ... said:

I think Tage will come up when a winger is injured or consistently shows they are no longer contributing to the team's ability to win.  But, say, if it's Vlad who is injured, Vesey will get Vlad's spot and Tage will fill in for Vesey.  

The key to that second line isn't Vlad, it's Johansson. He's not a natural center, and RK has said explicitly that Vlad is there to fill in the defensive gaps Marcus might have.  Otherwise, they will do what they can to keep MJ and Skinner together.  The other winger needs to be defensive first, a net-neutral force offensively at least, and, ideally, a third offensive threat (which Vlad ain't).  

So, if we're trading to upgrade a player, it's going to have to be a good return to either replace Vlad and his current role, or move Vlad off that line, install a real center, and move MJ to what was effectively Vlad's role.

This is why I bolded the above, the current state of the Sabres makes things less black and white.  Victor has solved the problem of the first line.  And, of course, that fourth line isn't getting broken up.  Our D is covered.  If things continue as they are, Botterill  has options and can definitely get creative in making the roster better.

Tage and Cozens give Botterill flexibility. Tage is likely projected to be a third or second line winger.  Cozens will be a third or second line center.   With those two in the system, and Vlad "working out", Botterill might instead opt to go after a high-end prospect who can roll into the team in a season or two, after the Vesey/Vlad/Sheary-type contracts expire.

We shall see.  Still believe, though we here all doubt it, based on the way some talking heads rave about Thompson 's " defensive stick work" that Botterill and Krueger believe he can at least adequately with a little seasoning reproduce Sobotka's defensive game and be far beyond his offensive game.

There is precedent from last season with both Pilut (who had mixed results, possibly due to playing injured) and Olofsson (who had great results) of guys in Ra-cha-cha being groomed for specific roles in Buffalo and then being given an opportunity in those roles when management determined they'd demonstrated they were ready for that role.

Of course, if the team stays at a 100+ point pace, there are only going to be injury related moves and Thompson getting a call up could be more on the Olofsson call up timeline though I'm expecting we see Tage back before Christmas. 

And you are correct that the key to L2 is Johansson.  But, though it has been about 5 years, he was an effective C in Washington.  He isn't another Leoni that hadn't played the spot since the equivalent of juniors.  By December, Marcus should be fully back into the groove (if he isn't already minus face off efficiency).  And if he does have more upside on that position, wow.  They're in good shape.

[Doohickie]

5 minutes ago, Taro T said:

We shall see.  Still believe, though we here all doubt it, based on the way some talking heads rave about Thompson 's " defensive stick work" that Botterill and Krueger believe he can at least adequately with a little seasoning reproduce Sobotka's defensive game and be far beyond his offensive game.

This may be true.

[Doohickie]

7 minutes ago, Taro T said:

There is precedent from last season with both Pilut (who had mixed results, possibly due to playing injured) and Olofsson (who had great results) of guys in Ra-cha-cha being groomed for specific roles in Buffalo and then being given an opportunity in those roles when management determined they'd demonstrated they were ready for that role.

This is how development is supposed to be done.

[Doohickie]

9 minutes ago, Taro T said:

And you are correct that the key to L2 is Johansson.  But, though it has been about 5 years, he was an effective C in Washington.  ...  By December, Marcus should be fully back into the groove (if he isn't already minus face off efficiency).  And if he does have more upside on that position, wow.  They're in good shape.

Remember how disappointed the board collectively was when JBot snagged Mojo and didn't get a 2C?  We thought he was the backup plan, but he apparently was Plan A.

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Remember how disappointed the board collectively was when JBot snagged Mojo and didn't get a 2C?  We thought he was the backup plan, but he apparently was Plan A.

Some of us were happy (GA was ecstatic) and were fine with the major hole on the 2nd line being transferred to 2RW which should be easier to fill.

But, when ALL the talk out of camp was that Johansson was brought in to be a wing, the frustration grew as barring a trade that left Rodrigues and Mittelstadt as the only answers at 2C and neither was a good answer.

[...]

3 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Remember how disappointed the board collectively was when JBot snagged Mojo and didn't get a 2C?  We thought he was the backup plan, but he apparently was Plan A.

It's so early, but what if Botterill has hit his stride with the team?  I feel dirty asking that question right now, however, if...I say IF...things continue on this trend, this team could be set up now for the next near decade.  Wouldn't it be nice to buy into that.

[Curt]

6 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Remember how disappointed the board collectively was when JBot snagged Mojo and didn't get a 2C?  We thought he was the backup plan, but he apparently was Plan A.

Or the backup plan just worked out great!  Either way, I’m not complaining.

[LGR4GM]

6 minutes ago, ... said:

It's so early, but what if Botterill has hit his stride with the team?  I feel dirty asking that question right now, however, if...I say IF...things continue on this trend, this team could be set up now for the next near decade.  Wouldn't it be nice to buy into that.

Haven't you heard? Botterill sucks at trading and is now gun shy about making another trade. 

He fired Phil and spent most of the summer fixing the defense so it didn't look like crap. He brought in 2 good coaches in Krueger and Andrew Allen. The ROR will always be abysmal but since that moment he has traded peanuts for good solid NHL players.