Sabres Lines September 26th

[steveoath]

Would Tage work alongside Skinner and Johansson? Or is this spot more a fight between Erod and Sheary?

[...]

39 minutes ago, sabresparaavida said:

So... The lines are looking like

Vo-Eichel-Samson

Skinner-Mojo-XXX

XXX-mitts-XXX

girgs-Larsson-Lazar

XXX= Erod/Vesey/Sheary/Okposo/Sobotka/Thompson

Vesey and Skinner kind of play the same game, so no wonder he's trying out other people on that second line.  ERod is likely the only one left who could be complimentary.  KO could if he weren't well past his prime.

Cozens would be perfect if he were two years older.

I'm totally good with the top and bottom lines.

We really don't have the appropriate assets for a third line here.  Ideally, it's ERod, XXXX, and Vesey.  

[Brawndo]

 

[LGR4GM]

25 minutes ago, steveoath said:

Would Tage work alongside Skinner and Johansson? Or is this spot more a fight between Erod and Sheary?

We should all hope that Tage makes it there by midseason. 

[Randall Flagg]

It's worth noting that Tage hasn't really had a better preseason than he did last preseason, and he's certainly scored less. We were thrilled about his preseason last year.

I don't mind starting him with the NHL squad to see his growth, but I'm not convinced he'll be an NHL player yet by what we've seen, and I hope that if he shows he's still not ready, Botterill is (months and months) quicker to rectify the situation than he was last season.

[LGR4GM]

I think when we talk about Botterill failing, the decision to keep Tage in Buffalo last year should be part of that argument. 

[dudacek]

20 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

It's worth noting that Tage hasn't really had a better preseason than he did last preseason, and he's certainly scored less. We were thrilled about his preseason last year.

I don't mind starting him with the NHL squad to see his growth, but I'm not convinced he'll be an NHL player yet by what we've seen, and I hope that if he shows he's still not ready, Botterill is (months and months) quicker to rectify the situation than he was last season.

Speaking only for myself, I believe he has been better this preseason than last, where the hype was more powered by the flash than the substance.

I thought he was outstanding in last year’s prospects tourney but faded as camp went on and got passed by Nylander.

Production notwithstanding, I see improvement in three areas: he is physically stronger, he is managing the puck better, he is reading the game better.

Whether these things will carry over to real games, I have no idea.

I think he might be one of our 12 best forwards, but I have trouble slotting him into the lineup. He’s been outplayed by VO and possibly  by ERod, Jimmy and Sheary as well.

More importantly, Ralph has so far had a similar issue. Not sure if the plan is to force him to excel down the roster before moving up the roster, or whether that’s where he actually stands in the pecking order.

Edited September 26, 2019 by dudacek

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I think when we talk about Botterill failing, the decision to keep Tage in Buffalo last year should be part of that argument. 

It should.  But I'm still not completely convinced that after they finished dead last the prior year that the goal last year wasn't to win necessarily but to be bad but watchable to land maybe Turcotte (& Cozens seems a very nice consolation prize) and develop the kids.

And because developing the kids was a primary goal, leaving Thompson up when he was clearly flailing (to the point of getting benched some), is why Tage's usage goes on the negative side of the ledger.

And because it was a 3 (or 4 year, after deciding to trade O'Reilly) year plan where a poor finish this year could bring in higher pedigreed youth, when he disagreed with Housley on usage he didn't force Housley to get with the program.  He let Housley use all that rope to make a pretty noose.

(Of course, that could all be fitting the results into a PA level conspiracy, when the simpler explanation is that Botterill is only a middling GM (but, one who, for our sakes, will get better, hopefully).)

[...]

26 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Production notwithstanding, I see improvement in three areas: he is physically stronger, he is managing the puck better, he is reading the game better.

Whether these things will carry over to real games, I have no idea.

While I haven't been swayed by Tage's high cheek bones, I don't necessarily disagree with the above.

For me, if you compare Tage to Mitts during the preseason, it's apparent Tage did something during the off-season to improve his lot.  I only caught one Tage toe-drag.  I didn't see him being moved off the puck as much like what happened routinely last season.  I think his read of the play, while maybe not enhanced, seemed a little different.  

I'm not saying I think he is ready for the second line, but after these pre-season games I would be okay with giving him a look for a few real NHL games on the third line to start the season, at the very least to assess how far he still needs to go.

We don't have our good third second-liner yet (he says "yet" with feigned optimism) to force the lines to assemble in a more solid fashion, so I really don't see how it could hurt anything.

Edited September 26, 2019 by ...
The Ghost of Dwight Drane

[pi2000]

I'd rather see Vesey with Eichel and Olofsson.     Eichel drives everything, no need for Reinhart on that line... put him with Skinner and Johansson.

[triumph_communes]

4 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

It's worth noting that Tage hasn't really had a better preseason than he did last preseason, and he's certainly scored less. We were thrilled about his preseason last year.

I don't mind starting him with the NHL squad to see his growth, but I'm not convinced he'll be an NHL player yet by what we've seen, and I hope that if he shows he's still not ready, Botterill is (months and months) quicker to rectify the situation than he was last season.

Disagree. I haven’t seen him try to out deke every pylon and instead use his body properly to shield the puck and cause chaos in the slot. It’s like watching a different player. 

[Curt]

4 hours ago, Taro T said:

It should.  But I'm still not completely convinced that after they finished dead last the prior year that the goal last year wasn't to win necessarily but to be bad but watchable to land maybe Turcotte (& Cozens seems a very nice consolation prize) and develop the kids.

And because developing the kids was a primary goal, leaving Thompson up when he was clearly flailing (to the point of getting benched some), is why Tage's usage goes on the negative side of the ledger.

And because it was a 3 (or 4 year, after deciding to trade O'Reilly) year plan where a poor finish this year could bring in higher pedigreed youth, when he disagreed with Housley on usage he didn't force Housley to get with the program.  He let Housley use all that rope to make a pretty noose.

(Of course, that could all be fitting the results into a PA level conspiracy, when the simpler explanation is that Botterill is only a middling GM (but, one who, for our sakes, will get better, hopefully).)

I absolutely believe that GMs, especially 1st time GMs, do this.  By getting the job with the understood plan of undertaking some sort of rebuild, you buy yourself time on the job.  If Pegula agreed to rebuild the roster a bit, doesn’t that give Botterill at least 3 years guaranteed?  Years of experience as an NHL GM is a valuable thing.  

Botterill has pretty obviously not been going all in on winning and has consistently preached development over results.  I’m not saying that it wasn’t what was best for the team, but it probably benefits the GM personally as well.

[Randall Flagg]

3 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

Disagree. I haven’t seen him try to out deke every pylon and instead use his body properly to shield the puck and cause chaos in the slot. It’s like watching a different player. 

This is impossible to quantify, but I saw some silly dekes this year and solid fundamentals last year as well. I can see that he's stronger, and a bit faster, so I'm hoping that puck protection can translate, but what I'm getting at is I hope we don't keep him up here if he's still not ready to be.

[inkman]

My entire opinion of this teams management lies on the handling of Sobotka.  If he plays a meaningful role with this, barring some miraculous improvement from last season, my opinion of JBot and RaKru is taking a hit.

He's terrible at everything and makes every teammate worse. He better be AHL or KHL bound. 

[kas23]

6 hours ago, dudacek said:

Speaking only for myself, I believe he has been better this preseason than last, where the hype was more powered by the flash than the substance.

Agreed. Context is important here. Last preseason, he was acquired in a trade of a malcontent. This preseason, he’s the guy we acquired for the most recent Conn Smyth winner. This perception matters, big time. But should it? Maybe he has been having a worthy preseason, if we would allow him to. 

[erickompositör72]

6 hours ago, Taro T said:

It should.  But I'm still not completely convinced that after they finished dead last the prior year that the goal last year wasn't to win necessarily but to be bad but watchable to land maybe Turcotte (& Cozens seems a very nice consolation prize) and develop the kids.

And because developing the kids was a primary goal, leaving Thompson up when he was clearly flailing (to the point of getting benched some), is why Tage's usage goes on the negative side of the ledger.

And because it was a 3 (or 4 year, after deciding to trade O'Reilly) year plan where a poor finish this year could bring in higher pedigreed youth, when he disagreed with Housley on usage he didn't force Housley to get with the program.  He let Housley use all that rope to make a pretty noose.

(Of course, that could all be fitting the results into a PA level conspiracy, when the simpler explanation is that Botterill is only a middling GM (but, one who, for our sakes, will get better, hopefully).)

I think this is another factor in why critique of JBott's "roster" is misplaced. GM's usually defer to the coaches for that. If they strongly disagree, they fire the coach.

He needed Housely to give him irrefutable evidence (for Pegula perhaps?) that PH needed to be fired. And he got it. And we got Cozens!

Edited September 26, 2019 by erickompositör72