OSP: Tom Golisano BN article

[Neo]

Where the franchise would be located was decided, was accomplished, before Rigas wrote checks, before Golisano provided financial stability and before Bettman had enough to get behind.  It was a coin flip for a long time until several men made something out of nothing.  Some had money, some had experience, some had influence and one was single minded and indomitable.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Neo

[PASabreFan]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Other than ensure both major franchises remain in Buffalo and fueled a renaissance at the foot of Main St, and keeps trying to succeed, not withholding resources like OSP did, I guess the Pegulas have done absolutely nothing.

He's not keeping the Sabres in Buffalo; this isn't about the Bills or real estate development; it's also not about wanting or trying to win or throwing money at the team. You've provided nothing, which proves my point. Accomplishments as owner of the Sabres? Virtually nothing. He's put some money into the building, mostly the lockerroom. If you can give me something else, please do.

[#freejame]

Just remember the crusades lasted almost 400 years. PA is only getting started. 

[PASabreFan]

1 hour ago, Eleven said:

It is amazing that you lionize Golisano and criticize Pegula.

You know who got the Sabres to the conference finals FOUR times?  Bet you won't lionize him.

But enjoy your trolling.  Hope you catch a bottom-feeder.

Of course I would (and have). You know I liked Lindy. His time had come. And nothing that's happened since 2011 in his career has changed my mind. Would he have been better than every coach who followed him? Almost certainly, but you have to factor the tank in there. That's not really an argument that Lindy should have been retained though.

[PASabreFan]

4 minutes ago, #freejame said:

Just remember the crusades lasted almost 400 years. PA is only getting started. 

That's why I begat Randall.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

40 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

He's not keeping the Sabres in Buffalo; this isn't about the Bills or real estate development; it's also not about wanting or trying to win or throwing money at the team. You've provided nothing, which proves my point. Accomplishments as owner of the Sabres? Virtually nothing. He's put some money into the building, mostly the lockerroom. If you can give me something else, please do.

The Pegula's have publicly stated that the Sabres are in Buffalo for as long as they own the team.  Same as the Bills.  Next?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 hour ago, #freejame said:

Just remember the crusades lasted almost 400 years. PA is only getting started. 

The original crusades were also ill-conceived and not successful.

Edited September 15, 2019 by New Scotland (NS)
i before e, blah ...

[PASabreFan]

41 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

The Pegula's have publicly stated that the Sabres are in Buffalo for as long as they own the team.  Same as the Bills.  Next?

Of course they are. Golisano saw to that in the sales agreement he had drawn up.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Just now, PASabreFan said:

Of course they are. Golisano saw to that in the sales agreement he had drawn up.

Indeed, OSP put in that clause, but your friend has stated that clause does not matter to him.

[matter2003]

What the hell is OSP??

[Sabres Fan in NS]

33 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

What the hell is OSP??

Ol' Sugar Packets = Golisano

[PASabreFan]

1 hour ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Indeed, OSP put in that clause, but your friend has stated that clause does not matter to him.

Not sure where you're going with this.

[Thorny]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

Pegula seems like a well-intentioned man who has done some wonderful things for the city of Buffalo.

But it is impossible to call his ownership anything other than an utter disaster for the product on the ice.

I am too lazy to comb through the stats, but I would be shocked if you could find a worse seven-year run in the history of the NHL. Detroit, pre-Illitch maybe? Caps after expansion? The Bruins and Rangers maybe, before expansion?

We have been pathetically, historically god-awful.

The best we’ve been was almost mediocre the two Bylsma years, and the only times it has been fun to be a Sabre fan was the summer we acquired Eichel and O’Reilly and the 10-game winning streak.

Basically 6 months out of 84, and 4 of those we weren’t even playing hockey.

It has been a nuclear wasteland.

And lottery night 2018. But spot on other than that. 

[Weave]

6 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I mean, he's not wrong that the Sabres have been an astounding amount of orders of magnitude worse under Terry, who allowed the tank decision to be made, which drove how bad we were for a majority of that time

I'm grateful for the Pegulas for the stability they've brought both teams in regards to their standing in Buffalo, particularly the Bills. But their hockey hirings and decisions are allowed to be heavily criticized and one single witty, well-thought-out poster doing so every couple of months should be easy enough for people to stomach better than they do.

I'm not sure this could be better said.

In the context of the on ice product there is no comparing TG to TP.  It's not even close.  It's amazing to me the the Pegulas get a general pass from all but a small handful when an entire sports team generation has passed and there is nothing to show for it.

Mentioning again the very interesting tidbit that it was TG that challenged Lindy to create a more high scoring, entertaining game.  And Lindy found a way.  That one item puts on display the very large difference in how TG ran the teaam compared to how TP ran the team.  Golisano knew what he wanted and challenged his team to find a way.  Under TP they threw in the towel, and 5 seasons later we still aren't sure what the expectations are for this season.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Weave

[Thorny]

13 minutes ago, Weave said:

I'm not sure this could be better said.

In the context of the on ice product there is no comparing TG to TP.  It's not even close.  It's amazing to me the the Pegulas get a general pass from all but a small handful when an entire sports team generation has passed and there is nothing to show for it.

Mentioning again the very interesting tidbit that it was TG that challenged Lindy to create a more high scoring, entertaining game.  And Lindy found a way.  That one item puts on display the very large difference in how TG ran the teaam compared to how TP ran the team.  Golisano knew what he wanted and challenged his team to find a way.  Under TP they threw in the towel, and 5 seasons later we still aren't sure what the expectations are for this season.

Well stated. 

[nfreeman]

17 minutes ago, Weave said:

I'm not sure this could be better said.

In the context of the on ice product there is no comparing TG to TP.  It's not even close.  It's amazing to me the the Pegulas get a general pass from all but a small handful when an entire sports team generation has passed and there is nothing to show for it.

Mentioning again the very interesting tidbit that it was TG that challenged Lindy to create a more high scoring, entertaining game.  And Lindy found a way.  That one item puts on display the very large difference in how TG ran the teaam compared to how TP ran the team.  Golisano knew what he wanted and challenged his team to find a way.  Under TP they threw in the towel, and 5 seasons later we still aren't sure what the expectations are for this season.

Until Lindy or someone else credible confirms the bolded, I'm inclined to take it with a pinch of salt.  There was a fair amount of spin/BS in that article, including as regards Black Sunday.  I'm pretty skeptical that Lindy changed his coaching style because of TG's suggestion -- as opposed to, say, the NHL rule changes post-lockout, losing Dominik, getting guys like Briere, Max, Soupy, etc.

As for the on-ice comparison between TG and TP -- I agree that it's fair for this to be taken into consideration, and that it matters.  There are a huge number of differences between the 2 situations, of course, that one could argue make the comparison unfair.  IMHO, the Sabres' difficulties stem from 3 poor decisions by TP -- retaining Darcy, hiring GMTM and, most of all, the tank -- each of which was understandable at the time it was made, but all of which were varying degrees of disastrous.

[Taro T]

Haven't been able to read the article (hit my limit on free articles and haven't tried from a different computer nor after clearing the cache) so apologize if any of this is obvious from &/or highly contradictory to the article.

Not surprising at all that Golisano gave Ruff a directive to make the team higher scoring (or at least playing a more wide open game) as post-Hasek the team was losing and also still playing a tight defense game but with much worse results as (except for '00-'01) even with Dom the Sabres couldn't really skate with the big money teams.  The only way to get people to FILL the barn would be to either win or at least be entertaining.  And with the Sabres internal payroll and top goalie being Biron, winning via playing the old clampdown on in-tight scoring chances looking for the odd breakout odd man rush to win a game 2-1 was going to be a challenge.  Switching to a more offensive game would also be a challenge, but it would also/at least be entertaining.  And the team did become more offensive and entertaining and even was one of the top teams in the '04 portion of the '03-'04 season.

Under Rigas, the team perpetually drafted 2 way players (such as Rasmussen) or D-men with their top picks, as they tried to win with guys that wouldn't get paid top $'s (other than Hasek) but could play well in defensive struggles.  My suspicion was always that that was intentional as ownership knew in the pre-salary cap era that scorers got the big bucks, so they didn't really want them (unless they could luck into them) as Timmy knew how tenuous their house of cards truly was and how they couldn't go break the bank on payroll even though on paper they looked truly flush.

In all these discussions about whether the Pegulas are good owners or bad owners, 1 thing keeps getting forgotten: just how frustrating every single off-season since the Knoxes told Muckler we'll no longer ice a top 3 payroll team because the revenues can't support it was.  We had a successful Juniors coach brought in (probably with the expectation that he'd fail and the GM's good friend Tortorella would be allowed to finally be the next head coach even though he wasn't a favorite with management) right after the vets (except for Lafontaine) were all traded away for prospects and picks.  We then had a very bad but entertaining final season in the Aud followed by a quite unexpected run to the top of the Adams which was followed by the coach and the GM both being shown the door.

The Rigas years saw annual early season holdouts of good players finally culminating in the full season holdout of Peca (right at the only time the Rigases ever let Regier bring veteran players into the fold) which eventually led to Hasek saying he wanted out of town.

Golisano's ownership had either presciently foreseen that in the post-lockout NHL that speed would actually be at a premium or more likely lucked into it; but he and Quinn immediately set the stage for those teams to get torn apart.  He also oversaw tearing apart one of the best scouting departments in favor of video scouting.  (How'd that work out?)

Yeah, we haven't seen the Sabres win (a single 7 game post-season 2 months after buying the team, not withstanding) while the Pegulas have owned the team, but the team does seem FINALLY to be close.   Eventually, they'll get back into the mix, but when they do, unlike under EACH of the other owners since the player strike of '92 they won't be forcing the team to tear down because it is too expensive.  

Heck, look at what the major complaint about this off-season was - they brought in too many guys to be able to ship somebody out ideally to bring in a 2C as they didn't have the cap space to force a trade for that 2C they're lacking.  This is virgin territory we're entering.  I'm still reasonably hopeful that Botterill will figure it out (and if he doesn't, the Pegulas should have enough contacts within the game to actually make that next GM hire a good one) and when he does he won't be forced to tear it all apart because the owners are undercapitalized by: only being millionaires (Knoxes) when salaries go up an order of magnitude; or being criminals that are basically inflating their net worth by buying up shares of their own company and falsifying revenues; or being too tight to allow a single season of net losses.

These guys seem to be figuring it out with the Bills, Bandits (and even the Beauts before the current cluster**** that's become), and Amerks.  I expect the Sabres won't be the outlier for too much longer.

[nfreeman]

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

Haven't been able to read the article (hit my limit on free articles and haven't tried from a different computer nor after clearing the cache) so apologize if any of this is obvious from &/or highly contradictory to the article.

Not surprising at all that Golisano gave Ruff a directive to make the team higher scoring (or at least playing a more wide open game) as post-Hasek the team was losing and also still playing a tight defense game but with much worse results as (except for '00-'01) even with Dom the Sabres couldn't really skate with the big money teams.  The only way to get people to FILL the barn would be to either win or at least be entertaining.  And with the Sabres internal payroll and top goalie being Biron, winning via playing the old clampdown on in-tight scoring chances looking for the odd breakout odd man rush to win a game 2-1 was going to be a challenge.  Switching to a more offensive game would also be a challenge, but it would also/at least be entertaining.  And the team did become more offensive and entertaining and even was one of the top teams in the '04 portion of the '03-'04 season.

Under Rigas, the team perpetually drafted 2 way players (such as Rasmussen) or D-men with their top picks, as they tried to win with guys that wouldn't get paid top $'s (other than Hasek) but could play well in defensive struggles.  My suspicion was always that that was intentional as ownership knew in the pre-salary cap era that scorers got the big bucks, so they didn't really want them (unless they could luck into them) as Timmy knew how tenuous their house of cards truly was and how they couldn't go break the bank on payroll even though on paper they looked truly flush.

In all these discussions about whether the Pegulas are good owners or bad owners, 1 thing keeps getting forgotten: just how frustrating every single off-season since the Knoxes told Muckler we'll no longer ice a top 3 payroll team because the revenues can't support it was.  We had a successful Juniors coach brought in (probably with the expectation that he'd fail and the GM's good friend Tortorella would be allowed to finally be the next head coach even though he wasn't a favorite with management) right after the vets (except for Lafontaine) were all traded away for prospects and picks.  We then had a very bad but entertaining final season in the Aud followed by a quite unexpected run to the top of the Adams which was followed by the coach and the GM both being shown the door.

The Rigas years saw annual early season holdouts of good players finally culminating in the full season holdout of Peca (right at the only time the Rigases ever let Regier bring veteran players into the fold) which eventually led to Hasek saying he wanted out of town.

Golisano's ownership had either presciently foreseen that in the post-lockout NHL that speed would actually be at a premium or more likely lucked into it; but he and Quinn immediately set the stage for those teams to get torn apart.  He also oversaw tearing apart one of the best scouting departments in favor of video scouting.  (How'd that work out?)

Yeah, we haven't seen the Sabres win (a single 7 game post-season 2 months after buying the team, not withstanding) while the Pegulas have owned the team, but the team does seem FINALLY to be close.   Eventually, they'll get back into the mix, but when they do, unlike under EACH of the other owners since the player strike of '92 they won't be forcing the team to tear down because it is too expensive.  

Heck, look at what the major complaint about this off-season was - they brought in too many guys to be able to ship somebody out ideally to bring in a 2C as they didn't have the cap space to force a trade for that 2C they're lacking.  This is virgin territory we're entering.  I'm still reasonably hopeful that Botterill will figure it out (and if he doesn't, the Pegulas should have enough contacts within the game to actually make that next GM hire a good one) and when he does he won't be forced to tear it all apart because the owners are undercapitalized by: only being millionaires (Knoxes) when salaries go up an order of magnitude; or being criminals that are basically inflating their net worth by buying up shares of their own company and falsifying revenues; or being too tight to allow a single season of net losses.

These guys seem to be figuring it out with the Bills, Bandits (and even the Beauts before the current cluster**** that's become), and Amerks.  I expect the Sabres won't be the outlier for too much longer.

Outstanding.

The bolded IMHO begins and ends any "which owner was better" discussion.  We are still paying for Black Sunday.

I'll also point out that the OP had plenty of fear and loathing for TG when he was the owner.

[SwampD]

3 hours ago, Taro T said:

Haven't been able to read the article (hit my limit on free articles and haven't tried from a different computer nor after clearing the cache) so apologize if any of this is obvious from &/or highly contradictory to the article.

Not surprising at all that Golisano gave Ruff a directive to make the team higher scoring (or at least playing a more wide open game) as post-Hasek the team was losing and also still playing a tight defense game but with much worse results as (except for '00-'01) even with Dom the Sabres couldn't really skate with the big money teams.  The only way to get people to FILL the barn would be to either win or at least be entertaining.  And with the Sabres internal payroll and top goalie being Biron, winning via playing the old clampdown on in-tight scoring chances looking for the odd breakout odd man rush to win a game 2-1 was going to be a challenge.  Switching to a more offensive game would also be a challenge, but it would also/at least be entertaining.  And the team did become more offensive and entertaining and even was one of the top teams in the '04 portion of the '03-'04 season.

Under Rigas, the team perpetually drafted 2 way players (such as Rasmussen) or D-men with their top picks, as they tried to win with guys that wouldn't get paid top $'s (other than Hasek) but could play well in defensive struggles.  My suspicion was always that that was intentional as ownership knew in the pre-salary cap era that scorers got the big bucks, so they didn't really want them (unless they could luck into them) as Timmy knew how tenuous their house of cards truly was and how they couldn't go break the bank on payroll even though on paper they looked truly flush.

In all these discussions about whether the Pegulas are good owners or bad owners, 1 thing keeps getting forgotten: just how frustrating every single off-season since the Knoxes told Muckler we'll no longer ice a top 3 payroll team because the revenues can't support it was.  We had a successful Juniors coach brought in (probably with the expectation that he'd fail and the GM's good friend Tortorella would be allowed to finally be the next head coach even though he wasn't a favorite with management) right after the vets (except for Lafontaine) were all traded away for prospects and picks.  We then had a very bad but entertaining final season in the Aud followed by a quite unexpected run to the top of the Adams which was followed by the coach and the GM both being shown the door.

The Rigas years saw annual early season holdouts of good players finally culminating in the full season holdout of Peca (right at the only time the Rigases ever let Regier bring veteran players into the fold) which eventually led to Hasek saying he wanted out of town.

Golisano's ownership had either presciently foreseen that in the post-lockout NHL that speed would actually be at a premium or more likely lucked into it; but he and Quinn immediately set the stage for those teams to get torn apart.  He also oversaw tearing apart one of the best scouting departments in favor of video scouting.  (How'd that work out?)

Yeah, we haven't seen the Sabres win (a single 7 game post-season 2 months after buying the team, not withstanding) while the Pegulas have owned the team, but the team does seem FINALLY to be close.   Eventually, they'll get back into the mix, but when they do, unlike under EACH of the other owners since the player strike of '92 they won't be forcing the team to tear down because it is too expensive.  

Heck, look at what the major complaint about this off-season was - they brought in too many guys to be able to ship somebody out ideally to bring in a 2C as they didn't have the cap space to force a trade for that 2C they're lacking.  This is virgin territory we're entering.  I'm still reasonably hopeful that Botterill will figure it out (and if he doesn't, the Pegulas should have enough contacts within the game to actually make that next GM hire a good one) and when he does he won't be forced to tear it all apart because the owners are undercapitalized by: only being millionaires (Knoxes) when salaries go up an order of magnitude; or being criminals that are basically inflating their net worth by buying up shares of their own company and falsifying revenues; or being too tight to allow a single season of net losses.

These guys seem to be figuring it out with the Bills, Bandits (and even the Beauts before the current cluster**** that's become), and Amerks.  I expect the Sabres won't be the outlier for too much longer.

meh

until winning starts. No one gets credit for anything.

Edited September 16, 2019 by SwampD

[Randall Flagg]

6 hours ago, Weave said:

I'm not sure this could be better said.

In the context of the on ice product there is no comparing TG to TP.  It's not even close.  It's amazing to me the the Pegulas get a general pass from all but a small handful when an entire sports team generation has passed and there is nothing to show for it.

Mentioning again the very interesting tidbit that it was TG that challenged Lindy to create a more high scoring, entertaining game.  And Lindy found a way.  That one item puts on display the very large difference in how TG ran the teaam compared to how TP ran the team.  Golisano knew what he wanted and challenged his team to find a way.  Under TP they threw in the towel, and 5 seasons later we still aren't sure what the expectations are for this season.

We knew what they were last season, when the ten game streak "wasn't who they really are." 

I stress again that I am eternally grateful for the possibility the Pegulas provide that I will have two of my favorite things on this planet, the Bills and Sabres, to watch and root for, for my entire life. 

 

[That Aud Smell]

I’m stuck on two things: (1) Monica Seles?! (2) It’s better to be lucky than good.

Further on 2, the planets really seemed to align for TG-owned teams. That said, TG strikes me as a much sharper dude than TP.

Edited September 16, 2019 by That Aud Smell

[That Aud Smell]

Now reading the piece. It’s a fascinating thought project: which is the better way to run a team, like a business run by someone who doesn’t know or care about the game and who will insist on turning a profit, or as a fan with limitless resources. As said above, I think there was a lot of randomness and good fortune at play when TG’s teams became really good.

+++

“I was not a hockey fan, but I was a business fan,” he recalled during his interview with the News. “I ran it like it was a business. I thought of it like a business. And I questioned almost everything.”

[Weave]

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

TG strikes me as a much sharper dude than TP.

Agreed.  And that might be all the difference required.

[PromoTheRobot]

19 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

He's not keeping the Sabres in Buffalo; this isn't about the Bills or real estate development; it's also not about wanting or trying to win or throwing money at the team. You've provided nothing, which proves my point. Accomplishments as owner of the Sabres? Virtually nothing. He's put some money into the building, mostly the lockerroom. If you can give me something else, please do.

Just keep being you, PA.

[PASabreFan]

45 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Just keep being you, PA.

You, too — adding virtually nothing to our discussions.