OSP: Tom Golisano BN article

[That Aud Smell]

@PASabreFan it's funny how the passage of time can affect how you feel about things. i feel i'm now secure enough in my fandom, or whatever, to conclude that the hockey team under TG was excellent - some of the best years the franchise has ever had - and that most fans' feelings toward ownership (to include LQ) were/are fairly negative (mixed, at best), and that the hockey team under TP has been an unmitigated tire fire - the worst stretch the franchise has ever had, i believe - and that most fans' feelings toward ownership are pretty positive. there are tons of variables that play into all of that. people are weird.

also, i really do think that luck, fortune, randomness play a significant role in how good TG's teams were and how bad TP's teams have been. i think that's true for all owners of pro sports teams.

[PASabreFan]

11 hours ago, nfreeman said:

Outstanding.

The bolded IMHO begins and ends any "which owner was better" discussion.  We are still paying for Black Sunday.

I'll also point out that the OP had plenty of fear and loathing for TG when he was the owner.

Of course Larry's version of Black Sunday is exactly what Taro is talking about. He said they couldn't afford Briere. You can save your overwraught reaction, Taro — I know you don't believe him.

One of these days Pegula will have to make a similarly tough decision. I bet he won't be accused of being "cheap." He certainly hasn't had to make that kind of tough decision yet since he hasn't spent even close to the cap (actually, not sure about right after he bought the team, but that was OSP's team and then Terry went on a spree).

I wonder what yearly profits have looked like under TP.

[PASabreFan]

5 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

@PASabreFan it's funny how the passage of time can affect how you feel about things. i feel i'm now secure enough in my fandom, or whatever, to conclude that the hockey team under TG was excellent - some of the best years the franchise has ever had - and that most fans' feelings toward ownership (to include LQ) were/are fairly negative (mixed, at best), and that the hockey team under TP has been an unmitigated tire fire - the worst stretch the franchise has ever had, i believe - and that most fans' feelings toward ownership are pretty positive. there are tons of variables that play into all of that. people are weird.

also, i really do think that luck, fortune, randomness play a significant role in how good TG's teams were and how bad TP's teams have been. i think that's true for all owners of pro sports teams.

True. It's like presidents. We never knew how good we had it with W.

As for Terry, I don't think it's any more complicated than he had very good PR advice — the opening presser was a home run, and then he built a Timmy's in a city that was starving for — anything. And then the Bills, of course.

Edited September 16, 2019 by PASabreFan

[That Aud Smell]

40 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

True. It's like presidents. We never knew how good we had it with W.

As for Terry, I don't think it's any more complicated than he had very good PR advice — the opening presser was a home run, and then he built a Timmy's in a city that was starving for — anything. And then the Bills, of course.

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

Of course Larry's version of Black Sunday is exactly what Taro is talking about. He said they couldn't afford Briere. You can save your overwraught reaction, Taro — I know you don't believe him.

One of these days Pegula will have to make a similarly tough decision. I bet he won't be accused of being "cheap." He certainly hasn't had to make that kind of tough decision yet since he hasn't spent even close to the cap (actually, not sure about right after he bought the team, but that was OSP's team and then Terry went on a spree).

I wonder what yearly profits have looked like under TP.

What kind of tough decision will he have to make?  Are you seriously speculating that/speculating whether TP will refuse to pay the market rate for, say, Dahlin because he doesn't want incur operating losses -- which TG was quite open about wanting to avoid?

As for "he hasn't spent close to the cap" -- are you interested in the facts, or just in lobbing hysterical "he's ripping us off" allegations?  Last year the Sabres' cap hit was $76.6MM, or about $2.9MM under the $79.5MM cap (i.e. 3.6% under).  In 2016-7, their cap hit was $71.7MM, or about $1.3MM under the $73MM cap (i.e. 1.8% under).  This year, the Sabres are at $82.5MM, or about $1MM over the cap.

Of course, your reference to Black Sunday completely (and, I expect, intentionally) elides the crux of the matter -- that TG and LQ chose not to negotiate a deal with Briere until it was too late, and that they had a deal with Drury that they chose not to finalize until it was too late.

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

You, too — adding virtually nothing to our discussions.

Better nothing than garbage.

[Randall Flagg]

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

@PASabreFan it's funny how the passage of time can affect how you feel about things. i feel i'm now secure enough in my fandom, or whatever, to conclude that the hockey team under TG was excellent - some of the best years the franchise has ever had - and that most fans' feelings toward ownership (to include LQ) were/are fairly negative (mixed, at best), and that the hockey team under TP has been an unmitigated tire fire - the worst stretch the franchise has ever had, i believe - and that most fans' feelings toward ownership are pretty positive. there are tons of variables that play into all of that. people are weird.

also, i really do think that luck, fortune, randomness play a significant role in how good TG's teams were and how bad TP's teams have been. i think that's true for all owners of pro sports teams.

You believe correctly. The difference cannot be overstated.

[Taro T]

37 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

What kind of tough decision will he have to make?  Are you seriously speculating that/speculating whIther TP will refuse to pay the market rate for, say, Dahlin because he doesn't want incur operating losses -- which TG was quite open about wanting to avoid?

As for "he hasn't spent close to the cap" -- are you interested in the facts, or just in lobbing hysterical "he's ripping us off" allegations?  Last year the Sabres' cap hit was $76.6MM, or about $2.9MM under the $79.5MM cap (i.e. 3.6% under).  In 2016-7, their cap hit was $71.7MM, or about $1.3MM under the $73MM cap (i.e. 1.8% under).  This year, the Sabres are at $82.5MM, or about $1MM over the cap.

Of course, your reference to Black Sunday completely (and, I expect, intentionally) elides the crux of the matter -- that TG and LQ chose not to negotiate a deal with Briere until it was too late, and that they had a deal with Drury that they chose not to finalize until it was too late.

AND they'd set themselves up for all of this by not signing ANY multiyear deals heading out of the lockout.  (What was the quote, "if I had my way, everybody would be on a 1 day contract"?)  Only 3 players (Drury, Hecht, & ??? (name escapes me at present)) were on deals that didn't expire in '06 and those all were signed pre-lost season.

How much differently would Black Friday have gone had they simply given just Briere & McKee the 3 year deals they wanted coming out of the lockout?  They likely don't have to walk away from Dumont's arbitration award backin '06 and Drury's deal likely is a smidge smaller than the one that languished on Golisano's desk because it wouldn't have to top Briere's $5MM deal.  And then either Vanek never gets offersheeted in '07 or they take the picks.

So many what ifs that all get traced back to 'can you at least hedge 2 bets?' on the off chance that revenues don't fall below predictions in that 1st season back?

(Too frustrating a topic & there is waaaay too much real work to be done today.  Have to step back for a bit from this one.)

[Taro T]

25 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

You believe correctly. The difference cannot be overstated.

Prior to the Pegulas buying the team, the longest playoff draught was three years corresponding to the end of the Rigas years / no owner year / Golisano taking over.

[darksabre]

I really hope Pat Lafontaine breaks his silence someday about the huge mess that was the GMTM era.

Edit: and Nolan. Both cited tension with GMTM/"the front office" as their reasons for resigning/being fired, and I'd love to know if Pegula was a part of that too.  

Edited September 16, 2019 by darksabre

[PASabreFan]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

What kind of tough decision will he have to make?  Are you seriously speculating that/speculating whether TP will refuse to pay the market rate for, say, Dahlin because he doesn't want incur operating losses -- which TG was quite open about wanting to avoid?

As for "he hasn't spent close to the cap" -- are you interested in the facts, or just in lobbing hysterical "he's ripping us off" allegations?  Last year the Sabres' cap hit was $76.6MM, or about $2.9MM under the $79.5MM cap (i.e. 3.6% under).  In 2016-7, their cap hit was $71.7MM, or about $1.3MM under the $73MM cap (i.e. 1.8% under).  This year, the Sabres are at $82.5MM, or about $1MM over the cap.

Of course, your reference to Black Sunday completely (and, I expect, intentionally) elides the crux of the matter -- that TG and LQ chose not to negotiate a deal with Briere until it was too late, and that they had a deal with Drury that they chose not to finalize until it was too late.

Don't be a fool. That's my job. I was clearly speculating whether when the Sabres are good — wait, that's not right, it's almost like there's a more correct way to say it — I was clearly speculating that when the Sabres are good, some tough roster decisions will have to be made, and it will come down to money. What was Teddy R.'s quote about the man in the arena?

Your cap figures don't match up with what I recollect. I'll double check later. I couldn't help but notice you've done some fine cherrypicking there.

I didn't elide the RaKrux of the matter. I was relaying Larry's version of events. But we all know better than he does.

[Drunkard]

23 hours ago, darksabre said:

I really hope Pat Lafontaine breaks his silence someday about the huge mess that was the GMTM era.

Edit: and Nolan. Both cited tension with GMTM/"the front office" as their reasons for resigning/being fired, and I'd love to know if Pegula was a part of that too.  

If I had to bet, I'd say that LaFontaine wasn't on board with the tank and there was a bit of a power struggle but after it was clear that Murray had the real authority when he traded Miller and Ott to St. Louis that's when LaFontaine realized being a figure head wasn't all it's cracked up to be. The timing makes too much sense because LaFontaine quit the very next day.

[Gatorman0519]

Our fanbase is top of the league as far as knowledge and passion for the game.  But the franchise is a perennial bottom feeder and virtually non competitive (that stretch the second half of the year was just brutal).  We only have had 6 playoff appearances this century and have not sniffed the second round since 07.  That is shocking ineptitude.

[Two or less]

Very interesting article. I enjoyed it. Living that time in Sabres history was pretty crazy, it was before social media really took off and all the breaking news still came from newspapers and digging deep on the internet. I remember waking up early to tune into Howard Simon and Jeremy White on wgr to hear if they had any new info.

The article states they rejected a offer from a Canadian businessman, but didn't list who. Are we to assume thats the Jim Balsillie deal? If it is, why not just say it? 

[Taro T]

13 hours ago, Briere48 said:

Very interesting article. I enjoyed it. Living that time in Sabres history was pretty crazy, it was before social media really took off and all the breaking news still came from newspapers and digging deep on the internet. I remember waking up early to tune into Howard Simon and Jeremy White on wgr to hear if they had any new info.

The article states they rejected a offer from a Canadian businessman, but didn't list who. Are we to assume thats the Jim Balsillie deal? If it is, why not just say it? 

Back when Golisano ended up with the team, Basillie was 1 other bidder, there also was a guy from the trucking industry (whose name escapes me now) and the severely undercapitalized  guy that owned the Destroyers (Hammister) who was championed by several local politicians and might actually have ended up causing the team to move due to undercapitalization and hubris.

Pretty certain Basillie made inquiries to Golisano when the possibility of selling them came about.  RIM  hadn't imploded yet.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Basillie was basically rejected by the NHL, as he said he wanted to move the team to Hamilton, ON.  The Leaves certainly would have vetoed the sale if Bettman had not.  Enter Tom, who famously said that the Sabres would never relocate if he owned them.  Bettman and the NHL applauded and the Leaves breathed a sigh of relief.

When Golisano was selling the team he rejected Basillie for the same reason ... relocation.  By that time the BlackBerry empire was starting to crumble and Jimmy had no real $.

[Taro T]

11 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Basillie was basically rejected by the NHL, as he said he wanted to move the team to Hamilton, ON.  The Leaves certainly would have vetoed the sale if Bettman had not.  Enter Tom, who famously said that the Sabres would never relocate if he owned them.  Bettman and the NHL applauded and the Leaves breathed a sigh of relief.

When Golisano was selling the team he rejected Basillie for the same reason ... relocation.  By that time the BlackBerry empire was starting to crumble and Jimmy had no real $.

Yeah, Bettman was adament that Balsille wouldn't get a team, but remember that there were serious rumors the Pens would end up in KC.

And had Hammister won the bidding, KC was a legit location for OUR team.  And unlike Cleveland in the NFL, it wasn't a lock we'd get a replacement (though being the best US market we should've).

[FogBat]

On 9/15/2019 at 11:22 AM, Eleven said:

He's the one who made the calls on Briere, Drury, and the slug jersey.

The team would have been fine without him.

There certainly was no love lost between Quinn and Rene Robert.

[Doohickie]

On 9/15/2019 at 10:08 AM, bob_sauve28 said:

Damn, he married Monica Seles!?! ? 

He's 78, she's 46.  That's creepy.

[Weave]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

He's 78, she's 46.  That's creepy.

The official rule is, (your age/2)+7.  If she’s older than that, not creepy.  She’s perfect.  It’s like he dis the math when they met.

 

Can’t remember where I first heard that.  Seems like a good rule to me.?

[Doohickie]

Just now, Weave said:

The official rule is, (your age/2)+7.  If she’s older than that, not creepy.  She’s perfect.  It’s like he dis the math when they met.

 

Can’t remember where I first heard that.  Seems like a good rule to me.?

But go back to when they got together, then it's creepy again.

[Weave]

5 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

But go back to when they got together, then it's creepy again.

Good thing she had free will to decide for herself.  Why should I judge negatively when she was willing to judge positively.

[Tondas]

15 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

But go back to when they got together, then it's creepy again.

I think it's creepy either way.  I think the rule of thumb is that you shouldn't marry someone who is younger than any of your children (most of these men are in their 2 or 3 marriages).  If you don't have any children, I think 15 years younger is the limit.

[inkman]

10 minutes ago, Tondas said:

I think it's creepy either way.  I think the rule of thumb is that you shouldn't marry someone who is younger than any of your children (most of these men are in their 2 or 3 marriages).  If you don't have any children, I think 15 years younger is the limit.

I think you got it twisted.  Imagine having to listen to this during amorous relations 

 

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Doohickie said:

He's 78, she's 46.  That's creepy.

Meh.  There is 12 years between me and my wife.  It's the life she chose, let her live with her geese hating, sugar packet stealing billionaire.  I'd probably snuggle up to him at night to if I could go on daily yaught trips and weekly private jet tours.