Forward Next Year - Casey Mittelstadt

[dudacek]

15 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Not sure about that.

He was played as the 2C far too often by Housley.  I was fine with keeping him up last year as I still believe that playing against AHLers would only reinforce his bad habits (biggest example being moving the puck directly into traffic in the slot, ragher than moving it wide and either passing it to the slot or getting a rebound to get it there) and not help him learn how to play at this level.

And, he seems to be using his linemates more than trying to get it to the danger spots on his own.  Looks like we'll find out next week if that's true or just perception.

This is a very astute observation by you (and by the Sabres staff, if that indeed is their thought process)

[Randall Flagg]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This is a very astute observation by you (and by the Sabres staff, if that indeed is their thought process)

It's also likely not a true thing

[dudacek]

16 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

It's also likely not a true thing

What, that letting Casey perpetuate bad habits in the minors would hinder his NHL development, or that Sabres would consider that factor in their decision making process?

[Zamboni]

Since when does going to the AHL = picking up bad habits.  Like it’s a foregone conclusion.  Doesn’t matter the player… It’ll just ... happen. 

And I for one don’t want to send Mitts down to Rochester.  But if he does for developments sake ... so be it.

[North Buffalo]

Casey needs to show more drive.  IMO its a maturity issue... he sounds like he is still a loner... not sure what is missing but he isnt the same player we saw at IIHL

[dudacek]

22 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Since when does going to the AHL = picking up bad habits.  Like it’s a foregone conclusion.  Doesn’t matter the player… It’ll just ... happen. 

I don’t think anyone said it was a foregone conclusion, or even likely.

This was a very specific case where @Taro T pointed out that Casey’s one-on-one isn’t working in the NHL and sending him to the AHL likely won’t help because it might work there and he needs to be forced to learn alternatives.

[Randall Flagg]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

What, that letting Casey perpetuate bad habits in the minors would hinder his NHL development, or that Sabres would consider that factor in their decision making process?

Why on earth is the AHL suddenly a league where bad habits are perpetuated? In EVERY other context with our prospects it gets described as a positive developmental tool, and this fact is often cited as one of Botterill's major accomplishments to this point. Is Chris Taylor a moron who would have nothing to say about turning Casey into an NHLer, quietly ignoring any requests from Jason or developmental staff in dissecting Casey's game? Why on EARTH did we let Olofsson spend all year down there then, when he had showed at the end just how good he already was?

Especially for guys with underwhelming college seasons the year before, who did very badly in the NHL. That is simply shoehorning the idea that maybe a mistake we made was actually closet genius because go Sabres

That premise is just stacking a bunch of unknowable "plausible" together despite each of them individually not being convincing or having any tangible evidence. 

Also, Casey did the same exact thing this preseason, so if that were even true then his NHL experience didn't help it

 

 

[Taro T]

27 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Why on earth is the AHL suddenly a league where bad habits are perpetuated? In EVERY other context with our prospects it gets described as a positive developmental tool, and this fact is often cited as one of Botterill's major accomplishments to this point. Is Chris Taylor a moron who would have nothing to say about turning Casey into an NHLer, quietly ignoring any requests from Jason or developmental staff in dissecting Casey's game? Why on EARTH did we let Olofsson spend all year down there then, when he had showed at the end just how good he already was?

Especially for guys with underwhelming college seasons the year before, who did very badly in the NHL. That is simply shoehorning the idea that maybe a mistake we made was actually closet genius because go Sabres

That premise is just stacking a bunch of unknowable "plausible" together despite each of them individually not being convincing or having any tangible evidence. 

Also, Casey did the same exact thing this preseason, so if that were even true then his NHL experience didn't help it

 

 

No, he did not.  He used his linemates more this preseason.

[dudacek]

22 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Why on earth is the AHL suddenly a league where bad habits are perpetuated? In EVERY other context with our prospects it gets described as a positive developmental tool, and this fact is often cited as one of Botterill's major accomplishments to this point. Is Chris Taylor a moron who would have nothing to say about turning Casey into an NHLer, quietly ignoring any requests from Jason or developmental staff in dissecting Casey's game? Why on EARTH did we let Olofsson spend all year down there then, when he had showed at the end just how good he already was?

Especially for guys with underwhelming college seasons the year before, who did very badly in the NHL. That is simply shoehorning the idea that maybe a mistake we made was actually closet genius because go Sabres

That premise is just stacking a bunch of unknowable "plausible" together despite each of them individually not being convincing or having any tangible evidence. 

Also, Casey did the same exact thing this preseason, so if that were even true then his NHL experience didn't help it

 

 

EVERY context? Like with Alex Nylander?

I think the idea that playing against inferior competition perpetuating bad habits is real. You see it in all levels of hockey where great players aren't challenged. You saw it every time a good team played the Sabres in 2014/15. Situations, not leagues perpetuate habits — good and bad.

Taro made an observation of why he was OK with Casey staying up last year, and I said "good point" because I hadn't thought of that. No one said that it was the logic the Sabres followed for Casey, that it worked, or they were geniuses for doing so.

I understand your frustration with the Sabres and with Sabrespacers who are not as frustrated as the team with you are. I don't like being its target.

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I don’t think anyone said it was a foregone conclusion, or even likely.

This was a very specific case where @Taro T pointed out that Casey’s one-on-one isn’t working in the NHL and sending him to the AHL likely won’t help because it might work there and he needs to be forced to learn alternatives.

I hadn’t really thought about that either. Look at Tage’s performance once he went down.  He was kind of a man amongst boys.  

 

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I don’t think anyone said it was a foregone conclusion, or even likely.

This was a very specific case where @Taro T pointed out that Casey’s one-on-one isn’t working in the NHL and sending him to the AHL likely won’t help because it might work there and he needs to be forced to learn alternatives.

but isn't that what your AHL coaching staff is supposed to do? If he has specific things to improve on (and he does) then it's their job to spend the time one on one and put him in situations and work on his development as per the big club's desires. When players go down there they're not just told to play however they want and score their way. At least I hope it's not, if it is, we need a whole new AHL staff. 

[Curt]

3 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

Casey needs to show more drive.  IMO its a maturity issue... he sounds like he is still a loner... not sure what is missing but he isnt the same player we saw at IIHL

What’s missing is probably the junior players that he was going up against. They were replaced by first NCAA players 19-23 years old, then NHL players.  Casey hasn’t yet caught up.  He will be ok in the end.  I feel confident.

When I say ok, I mean “not a bust”.  It’s entirely possible that he ends up a 40-50 pt, 3rd line C on a good team, or maybe even moved to the wing.  That’s probably less than we hoped for from him, but it’s a reasonable outcome.

[North Buffalo]

5 hours ago, Curt said:

What’s missing is probably the junior players that he was going up against. They were replaced by first NCAA players 19-23 years old, then NHL players.  Casey hasn’t yet caught up.  He will be ok in the end.  I feel confident.

When I say ok, I mean “not a bust”.  It’s entirely possible that he ends up a 40-50 pt, 3rd line C on a good team, or maybe even moved to the wing.  That’s probably less than we hoped for from him, but it’s a reasonable outcome.

In someways he reminds me of Sam who got a slow start... really good passer not overly physical.  Sam worked really hard at becoming better physically and other skills he did not have before.  Looks like game is slowing down for Sam now, whereas Mitts is still at the beginning of that evolution or near it.

[Randall Flagg]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

EVERY context? Like with Alex Nylander?

I think the idea that playing against inferior competition perpetuating bad habits is real. You see it in all levels of hockey where great players aren't challenged. You saw it every time a good team played the Sabres in 2014/15. Situations, not leagues perpetuate habits — good and bad.

Taro made an observation of why he was OK with Casey staying up last year, and I said "good point" because I hadn't thought of that. No one said that it was the logic the Sabres followed for Casey, that it worked, or they were geniuses for doing so.

I understand your frustration with the Sabres and with Sabrespacers who are not as frustrated as the team with you are. I don't like being its target.

Yes, even if the AHL isn't the RIGHT league for a specific player, it's never a place where players are going to be actively harmed in the way we're talking about Casey here - not driving the middle of the ice with the puck?

The AHL was NOT inferior competition for a guy who couldn't crack PPG in college the year before. It wasn't inferior competition for Kyle Connor either, and he hit the NHL ground running. I cannot fathom believing that Casey was too good for the AHL given what we saw in the NHL and the year before in college. If we're in disagreement there, this conversation simply will not continue effectively. Why would his bad habits have continued down there? I don't think his "bad habits" were all that successful in college, given the stat line and the games we saw. Why would this have been true of the AHL in his 20 year old season?

Apologies for coming off like I'm going off on Sabrespacers. *****'s going on IRL and I'm letting it seep in here and I shouldn't

[North Buffalo]

2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Yes, even if the AHL isn't the RIGHT league for a specific player, it's never a place where players are going to be actively harmed in the way we're talking about Casey here - not driving the middle of the ice with the puck?

The AHL was NOT inferior competition for a guy who couldn't crack PPG in college the year before. It wasn't inferior competition for Kyle Connor either, and he hit the NHL ground running. I cannot fathom believing that Casey was too good for the AHL given what we saw in the NHL and the year before in college. If we're in disagreement there, this conversation simply will not continue effectively. Why would his bad habits have continued down there? I don't think his "bad habits" were all that successful in college, given the stat line and the games we saw. Why would this have been true of the AHL in his 20 year old season?

Apologies for coming off like I'm going off on Sabrespacers. *****'s going on IRL and I'm letting it seep in here and I shouldn't

I don't have a solid opinion of having Casey up or down, but agree learning how to drive the net better against bigger players, playing better in the corners and generally being tougher to play against are all things Casey needs to work and appears to be doing this year, but imo has a long way to go... again seems like on Sam's development curve.  My guess is you put him on the 2nd PP in front of the net and make him learn to take hits and tip shots and rotate behind the net dig pucks out and pass setup to cutting forwards etc.

[Taro T]

59 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

Yes, even if the AHL isn't the RIGHT league for a specific player, it's never a place where players are going to be actively harmed in the way we're talking about Casey here - not driving the middle of the ice with the puck?

The AHL was NOT inferior competition for a guy who couldn't crack PPG in college the year before. It wasn't inferior competition for Kyle Connor either, and he hit the NHL ground running. I cannot fathom believing that Casey was too good for the AHL given what we saw in the NHL and the year before in college. If we're in disagreement there, this conversation simply will not continue effectively. Why would his bad habits have continued down there? I don't think his "bad habits" were all that successful in college, given the stat line and the games we saw. Why would this have been true of the AHL in his 20 year old season?

Apologies for coming off like I'm going off on Sabrespacers. *****'s going on IRL and I'm letting it seep in here and I shouldn't

How many U Minny games you watch?  He centered a bunch of shmucks there.

And never said going to the A would ruin him.  Said he'd figure stuff out quicker being in a league where going to the house by himself like he did in college and the WJC works far less frequently than it would in Ra-cha-cha would benefit him in the long run.  And he did that far less frequently this preseason than he did last year.  IMHO.  And it looks like Krueger agrees as Cozens is in Lethbridge and there is nobody else getting 3C usage this week.

[North Buffalo]

Talked to a guy down here in Westchester today at a grocery store who saw my Sabres t shirt and we got talking hockey.  Turns out he is from western ny and has had some contact with the Pegulas.  He said two things interesting.  One, they view Mitts as a 3C and were surprised and happy that Cozens dropped to them and they view him as the future 2c.  Also, otherwise the pic would have been Zegras, though they felt Zegras wasn't tough enough for NHL... nothing earth shattering, but weird that he thought front office has Mitts pegged as a 3c ceiling.  Hope any of these kind of pigeon holes lights a fire under Mitts.    PS His kid played against Zegras throughout high school as a goalie.  

Edited September 27, 2019 by North Buffalo

[Taro T]

7 minutes ago, North Buffalo said:

Talked to a guy down here in Westchester today at a grocery store who saw my Sabres t shirt and we got talking hockey.  Turns out he is from western ny and has had some contact with the Pegulas.  He said two things interesting.  One, they view Mitts as a 3C and were surprised and happy that Cozens dropped to them and they view him as the future 2c.  Also, otherwise the pic would have been Zegras, though they felt Zegras wasn't tough enough for NHL... nothing earth shattering, but weird that he thought front office has Mitts pegged as a 3c ceiling.  Hope any of these kind of pigeon holes lights a fire under Mitts.    PS His kid played against Zegras throughout high school as a goalie.  

Guess it's too ####ing bad that they viewed him as a 2C last year, eh?

[LTS]

7 hours ago, Taro T said:

Guess it's too ####ing bad that they viewed him as a 2C last year, eh?

Did they?  

Just because they had to use him that way does not mean they wanted to use him that way.  I'm not going into the round and round over some guy named Ryan and that his departure meant the Sabres were all about Mittlestadt as 2C.  Sometimes you have to make a move that will force you to rely upon someone in a position you know they aren't suited to be in.  

If nothing else, and if the truth is that they viewed Mittlestadt as a good 3C, then it lends more credence that they felt very strongly that 91 had to go. 

Either way, just because they used Mittlestadt at 2C does not mean they thought it was the best spot for him.

Edited September 27, 2019 by LTS

[triumph_communes]

7 hours ago, Taro T said:

Guess it's too ####ing bad that they viewed him as a 2C last year, eh?

He was a 4C last year, lol.  Just because fans kept drawing up the lines differently doesn't change the minutes and linemates he actually got were 4th line territory.

[Broken Ankles]

10 hours ago, Taro T said:

How many U Minny games you watch?  He centered a bunch of shmucks there.

And never said going to the A would ruin him.  Said he'd figure stuff out quicker being in a league where going to the house by himself like he did in college and the WJC works far less frequently than it would in Ra-cha-cha would benefit him in the long run.  And he did that far less frequently this preseason than he did last year.  IMHO.  And it looks like Krueger agrees as Cozens is in Lethbridge and there is nobody else getting 3C usage this week.

This is an assumption, based on what?  Does JB not have a bigger say on both the decision to have Cozens sent back to Junior AND Casey not being sent to the AHL?    I don't think Kruger has enough capital to overrule the GM's decisions (for now),  and we shall see how CM is deployed over the first 20 games to better understand what Krueger thinks of his game.  

[erickompositör72]

14 minutes ago, Broken Ankles said:

This is an assumption, based on what?  Does JB not have a bigger say on both the decision to have Cozens sent back to Junior AND Casey not being sent to the AHL?    I don't think Kruger has enough capital to overrule the GM's decisions (for now),  and we shall see how CM is deployed over the first 20 games to better understand what Krueger thinks of his game.  

This has come up in many threads, and I think you and several others are mistaken. I think the coach has the final say on the lineup, but they work closely together on it and try to come to a consensus.

A GM overruling a coach on lineup issues would be a sign that the GM and coach are not on the same page, and the coach should start worrying about his job security.

[inkman]

10 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

Talked to a guy down here in Westchester today at a grocery store who saw my Sabres t shirt and we got talking hockey.  Turns out he is from western ny and has had some contact with the Pegulas.  He said two things interesting.  One, they view Mitts as a 3C and were surprised and happy that Cozens dropped to them and they view him as the future 2c.  Also, otherwise the pic would have been Zegras, though they felt Zegras wasn't tough enough for NHL... nothing earth shattering, but weird that he thought front office has Mitts pegged as a 3c ceiling.  Hope any of these kind of pigeon holes lights a fire under Mitts.    PS His kid played against Zegras throughout high school as a goalie.  

The Pegulas are dictating where players will be slotted in th lineup?  This seems dubious.  

 

[Doohickie]

5 minutes ago, inkman said:

The Pegulas are dictating where players will be slotted in th lineup?  This seems dubious.  

"They view Mitts as a 3C"  Who is "they".  Obviously the Pegulas, but do they see it this way because the are dictating it, or because this is what JBot told them?

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, Broken Ankles said:

This is an assumption, based on what?  Does JB not have a bigger say on both the decision to have Cozens sent back to Junior AND Casey not being sent to the AHL?    I don't think Kruger has enough capital to overrule the GM's decisions (for now),  and we shall see how CM is deployed over the first 20 games to better understand what Krueger thinks of his game.  

You don't think Krueger & Botterill are in the same page?  What's your basis for THAT assumption?

As for whether Krueger wanted to see more of Cozens at present or not, his not getting pencilled into any lines as a regular his last 2-3 practices gives an indication that he didn't.  Or was that on Botterill as well?

Am willing to agree the final say on where Cozens is now was J Botts, but have no reason whatsoever to believe Ralph wasn't on board.