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Tim Murray was a complete disaster for the Buffalo Sabres

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8 hours ago, Derrico said:

Ding ding ding.  This is what it boils down too.  TM and JB have completely different philosophies on how to win in the nhl today.  I believe in the fast skilled model above the big physical one.  Maybe that’s why I’m more than ok with where botts has this team.  But again, sabres have to take that next step though or my thoughts will really sour.  I think a 2c trade is coming and sabres really going to surprise this year.

Did you watch the playoffs this year at all?????

Anyway, I sure hope we surprise and there is a chance this new assembly comes together (especially after a good trade for Risto with.......Winnipeg? .....for another solid forward) but right now JBot's evaluation rests solely on his draft picks. If they are good he gets a thumbs up, if not, him and Murray can race to the bottom and we can wallow there with them for another 2 or 3 years as the next GM starts yet again.

Right now I am mostly worried about two things. One, goaltending. Just don't have faith in Ullmark getting it together. Hope I'm wrong. Two, we are really really soft. Marcus Johanson can play some good hockey (for example) but he went into tough areas on a team where he knew people had his back. How will he do after he takes a few tough hits here and will he just end up concussed for the year. If we somehow surprise and make it to the playoffs, we will be a quick exit as we get run out of the rink. One step at a time I guess, but a more balanced approach to this rebuild would be more to my liking.

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Murray as a talent evaluator seemed pretty decent. His sense a value of that talent cough cough Lehner actually more stability as a person was off ROR COR cough...reflective of himself... how much did he have to do with Karlsson -Hoffman debacle.. rolled into 1 summed him up as a big pile of doodoo.  JBots other than what happened with the return on the ROR trade seems to be finding good character guys with skill and determination... hungry guys... promoting guys who are hungry and removing slackers.  His first coaching choice was a mistake as well... he seems to have learned from both but again how he handles Risto.... one way or the other will define his legacy here. We as sabrespacers wait with baited breath 🐡

Edited by North Buffalo
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As much as he may have had an eye for talent, he had no idea how the whole human interaction thing works.  His single word draft announcements really signal how inept he is to this.  What destroyed his teams were his locker rooms (and coaches).  The players he picked all went on elsewhere and contributed, or excelled, but while in Buffalo were ranging from criminal alcoholics to full on raging alcoholics, outcasts in their own locker rooms, completely aloof, more concerned about basketball events than their hockey games, and getting benched for being a few minutes late for a meeting as a top-down approach to solving these issues.  A good scout doesn't necessarily make a good manager, and Murray was an extreme example of the fact that it takes more to build a team than just talent.

 

And the absurd amount of 2nd round picks that were traded away for nothing, or turned into gems like Karabacek and Cornel, is why we have such abysmal depth today and why Botterill has taken years fixing the cap situation and reforming the roster from the outside-- since the cupboards at home were bare.

Edited by triumph_communes
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5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Did you watch the playoffs this year at all?????

Anyway, I sure hope we surprise and there is a chance this new assembly comes together (especially after a good trade for Risto with.......Winnipeg? .....for another solid forward) but right now JBot's evaluation rests solely on his draft picks. If they are good he gets a thumbs up, if not, him and Murray can race to the bottom and we can wallow there with them for another 2 or 3 years as the next GM starts yet again.

Right now I am mostly worried about two things. One, goaltending. Just don't have faith in Ullmark getting it together. Hope I'm wrong. Two, we are really really soft. Marcus Johanson can play some good hockey (for example) but he went into tough areas on a team where he knew people had his back. How will he do after he takes a few tough hits here and will he just end up concussed for the year. If we somehow surprise and make it to the playoffs, we will be a quick exit as we get run out of the rink. One step at a time I guess, but a more balanced approach to this rebuild would be more to my liking.

and very small....look at the playoffs this year and how the good teams had big, strong fast forwards

all this forth and back and we're still a last place team

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5 minutes ago, nucci said:

and very small....look at the playoffs this year and how the good teams had big, strong fast forwards

all this forth and back and we're still a last place team

JBOT played at 6'4" and 220.  He has to realize what size can bring to a team.  Yet he brings in smaller guys.  Strange.

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7 minutes ago, Tondas said:

JBOT played at 6'4" and 220.  He has to realize what size can bring to a team.  Yet he brings in smaller guys.  Strange.

Well, I would make the argument that since he was a big player, he really doesn't understand how larger players impact the game.  He might have saw select smaller players whizzing hither and yon on the ice and marked that, not realizing the smaller guys are impacted by the larger dudes probably just as equally.

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Bergeron is 6'1"

Ror is 6'1"

But sure let's keep tossing out this continually proven wrong trope that the Sabres are "small". Especially considering several younger Sabres will be adding strength this offseason. Outside of Sheary and Erod, no one is "small". 

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Tarasenko, 6'

Marchand 5'9"

Pastrnak 6'

Jaden Schwartz 5'10" 

All guys who scored the most playoff points. 

Found a "big player" alex pientrangelo, 6'3" 

None of these guys are 220lbs. Only 1 is close at 215lbs. The rest are around 200lbs.

Edited by LGR4GM
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I agree Murray was a disaster. He didn't build a team he tried to hot fix it.. He didn't do squat for depth or much for Rochester. Ridiculous cap management as well. Okposo was a sad contract. Murray had no sense of how ot build a franchise from the ground up for long term success... That is what Buffalo needed.. he was the wrong guy for this job.

I like Botterill more at this junction because he has a long range plan for sustainable improvement. Even though he was desperate to ship out O'reilly for future cap availability, his work this offseason is impressive, and I fully expect another major move or 2. 

Botterill picked Housley but he also moved on from him quickly. Krueger looks like a good hire but that's a we shall see situation.

 

Overall I do like Botterill's approach more than Murrays, but if we don't see a nice uptick in improvement this year then both of them will suck in hindsight

Edited by ddaryl
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37 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Tarasenko, 6'

Marchand 5'9"

Pastrnak 6'

Jaden Schwartz 5'10" 

All guys who scored the most playoff points. 

Found a "big player" alex pientrangelo, 6'3" 

None of these guys are 220lbs. Only 1 is close at 215lbs. The rest are around 200lbs.

ok good points...how about then that those players are better than ours?

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45 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Bergeron is 6'1"

Ror is 6'1"

But sure let's keep tossing out this continually proven wrong trope that the Sabres are "small". Especially considering several younger Sabres will be adding strength this offseason. Outside of Sheary and Erod, no one is "small". 

We were just below average in both height and weight. Saying we are small is not incorrect (even if only slightly.) 

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It is incorrect. We are less than 1 standard deviation away from average. Therefore we are not small. Literally in the middle of that chart. 

Also considering we have an exceedingly young team, is it not normal for us at this stage to be slightly underweight? Young guys take a few summers to get up to strength. 

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1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

It is incorrect. We are less than 1 standard deviation away from average. Therefore we are not small. Literally in the middle of that chart. 

Also considering we have an exceedingly young team, is it not normal for us at this stage to be slightly underweight? Young guys take a few summers to get up to strength. 

You know what being literally in middle of that chart doesn’t make us,... big. Literally.

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Just now, SwampD said:

You know what being literally in middle of that chart doesn’t make us,... big. Literally.

Right, we're average

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9 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I don't even know where to begin, but I’ll try.

Ultimately the ROR deal plus, Moulson, Okposo, Gorges, Franson, Fasching, Kulikov, Kane, and Bogo, decimated our prospect pipeline and the Amerks, placed us in cap hell and only gave us a mediocre team with no future.  Yeah!  Congrats! This rebuild needed a better manager, a better player and prospect evaluator, a better communicator and someone with an organizational vision to build a franchise for the long-term. TM was none of these things and IMHO is among the worst GMs in NHL history.  

 

I completely agree.  TM was a failure when it came to attracting talent, hiring coaches, and signing deals.  He constantly overpaid and didn't know how to build a team.  This is what I picture today when I think about GMTM

 frustrated office space GIF

 

JBott had a decent roster last year, but the team failed, and a lot of that had to do with coaching (and because JBotts couldn't make a deal for a top six forward during the season).  So what does he do?  Fires the coach and goes and get one that is a world renown team builder.  I'm not sure if Kruegs was the entire reason Johansson signed, but it definitely helped getting him signed, and at a reasonable price. 

Comparing JBotts to GMTM at this point is premature.  JBotts is about to start his 3rd season at the helm, and you can already see how he's shifted from a short-term strategy (I need NHL ready skaters in my line-up) to a long-term strategy (I need enough talent on the NHL squad so I don't have to rush kids on ELCs into the league and I need a healthy AHL team to develop those kids).  TM said all the right things, but didn't know how to deliver.

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@Randall Flaggis 100% right that while GMTM's tenure was a failure, there is exactly zero evidence thus far that JB's will be any better.

The GM is accountable for the results of the team he puts together.  So far, JB's teams have stunk, including a DFL finish that was absolutely not intended and in which pretty much all of his acquisitions pooped the bed.  I'm glad the Sabres appear to be a more methodical and professionally-run organization than they used to be, but it won't matter a-tall unless they start winning.

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2 hours ago, North Buffalo said:

how he handles Risto.... one way or the other will define his legacy here.

I don't agree.  This is giving way too much weight to the Risto situation.  He isn't THAT important to the future of the franchise.

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10 hours ago, dudacek said:


And the same for this:

Gorges Risto

McCabe Bogosian

Kulikov Franson

 

I posted it over on the bills board last week so I'll paste it over here:

Quote

 

I do think that it was mostly a case of Murray not placing anywhere near as much value on the defense position.  It goes beyond the drafts.  Look at all of his moves while he was here.  He focused very heavily on adding scoring.  He never traded for defense.  Any d-man he did acquire, it involved a defenseman going back the other way (Myers -> Bogosian, Pysyk -> Kulikov).  Other deals actually depleted our D numbers (McNabb -> Fasching/Desluariers, Zadorov in the O'Reilly deal).  Only one trade lead to a net gain in D (Gorges for pick).

He also didn't pay any serious attention to the position in free agency.  Take a look at this list, he never looked beyond the bargain bin:
Meszaros
Strachan
Benoit
Donovan
Sanguinetti
Colaiacovo
Franson
Fedun
Falk

 


 

If that free agency list doesn't make you throw up, you've got a much stronger stomach than most.

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10 minutes ago, Curt said:

I don't agree.  This is giving way too much weight to the Risto situation.  He isn't THAT important to the future of the franchise.

True, but post ROR trade... Risto if traded for anything other than 2C will be considered a failure... It will show he learned something from that mess if he is successful. If he is then he will be able to move on... if not that albatross will follow him... two Rs = F

Edited by North Buffalo
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Oh the thread derailing that is inevitable ... I’ll just keep it to TM ... yes he was a terrible GM. I don’t know if he was necessarily the worst in Sabres history or the worst in NHL history as some like to claim. But he was good at being a straight shooter and interesting sound bites. 😂

 

 

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FYI: TM’s second and final team went 33–37-12 for 78 pts for 8th in the Atlantic. His final Amerks team went 32-41-0-3 for 67 pts and 6th in the division and out of the playoffs for the 3rd straight year.

Jbot inherited Jack and Sam with 1 year left in their ELCs plus 9 other players, including dead weight of Gorges, Okposo, Bogo, Ennis, and Moulson, with contracts worth over 44 million.  7 of these deals had 2 years or more to go including KO and ROR with 6 years left each. He also inherited 5 RFAs, including Foligno and Lehner who had each earned 2.25 the prior season.  

Jbot, in year 2, while getting us out from most of under TM’s bad contracts, has the Sabres back to a similar spot in the NHL - 33-39-10 last year 76 pts, 6th in Atlantic and the Amerks to 46-23-8-2 and 2nd in their division with 2 straight playoff appearances. We now only have 1 bad contract (KO’s) as Bogo’s ends this year and we have 24 mill+ coming off the books after this coming season.  

So tell me, which is the better situation going forward? The one TM left Jbot or one Jbot has created?

Edited by GASabresIUFAN
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FWIW, Murray's Amerks were just as capable of getting swept in the first round as Botterill's are. Each of them has won the same amount of AHL playoff games.

Edit: I lied, Murray's Amerks made the playoffs less but won more AHL playoff games to this point.

And Murray players are a big reason why Botterill's Amerks were good. Olofsson, Smith, Asplund, Nylander, Guhle (before trade), Borgen. That's not nothin, especially considering that was two seasons after Murray last made a decision for the team. In fact, I'd go as far as calling it surprisingly impressive. Their captain Porter also spent a season with Murray's Amerks before leaving for a couple of years.

And while Botterill appears to be able to identify better NHL defensemen (waiting for that to catch up in the most important counting stat: goals against, which was 222 (16th) and 237 (20th) under Tim and 280 (29th) and 271 (23rd) under Jason), his track record for forward depth is abominable so far, even compared to Tim, who often had a problematic fourth line but usually iced three pretty solid ones above them. 

If "getting us out of TM's bad contracts" means waiting for the Moulson/Gorges/Bogosian ones to expire, while moving the Ennis contract for an equal one in Pominville along with a new contract problem for this coming season in a sub-replacement-level Scandella, then sure. That is hardly a breathtaking accomplishment, any of us could have done the same. Skinner at 9 million is questionable, and it's his own fault that losing Skinner would have been even worse than signing that contract (which would have made every single one of us spit our drink out, horrified and dumbfounded, if we had been told those numbers last September). Reinhart's bridge deal is going to cost us millions per year in cap space in the long run as well. Taking Hunwick was a short-term cap annoyance, even moreso when you consider that it directly leads to us doing things like playing Matt Hunwick. Sobotka in that same boat. And thank god Berglund quit on the team, because that would have been problematic going forward as well.

I don't think he's been awful with the cap, but he hasn't been some wizard or genius, either. 

This is not a clean-cut, binary topic.

Edited by Randall Flagg
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4 hours ago, SwampD said:

We were just below average in both height and weight. Saying we are small is not incorrect (even if only slightly.) 

Bruins, Hawks, Lightning, Predators, Flames...all 'smaller' than us

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1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

FWIW, Murray's Amerks were just as capable of getting swept in the first round as Botterill's are. Each of them has won the same amount of AHL playoff games.

Edit: I lied, Murray's Amerks made the playoffs less but won more AHL playoff games to this point.

And Murray players are a big reason why Botterill's Amerks were good. Olofsson, Smith, Asplund, Nylander, Guhle (before trade), Borgen. That's not nothin, especially considering that was two seasons after Murray last made a decision for the team. In fact, I'd go as far as calling it surprisingly impressive. Their captain Porter also spent a season with Murray's Amerks before leaving for a couple of years.

And while Botterill appears to be able to identify better NHL defensemen (waiting for that to catch up in the most important counting stat: goals against, which was 222 (16th) and 237 (20th) under Tim and 280 (29th) and 271 (23rd) under Jason), his track record for forward depth is abominable so far, even compared to Tim, who often had a problematic fourth line but usually iced three pretty solid ones above them. 

If "getting us out of TM's bad contracts" means waiting for the Moulson/Gorges/Bogosian ones to expire, while moving the Ennis contract for an equal one in Pominville along with a new contract problem for this coming season in a sub-replacement-level Scandella, then sure. That is hardly a breathtaking accomplishment, any of us could have done the same. Skinner at 9 million is questionable, and it's his own fault that losing Skinner would have been even worse than signing that contract (which would have made every single one of us spit our drink out, horrified and dumbfounded, if we had been told those numbers last September). Reinhart's bridge deal is going to cost us millions per year in cap space in the long run as well. Taking Hunwick was a short-term cap annoyance, even moreso when you consider that it directly leads to us doing things like playing Matt Hunwick. Sobotka in that same boat. And thank god Berglund quit on the team, because that would have been problematic going forward as well.

I don't think he's been awful with the cap, but he hasn't been some wizard or genius, either. 

This is not a clean-cut, binary topic.

Murray’s teams (Sabres and Amerks) never made the playoffs in TM’s 2.5 years as GM.  Hard to win a playoff game if you don’t actually make the playoffs.

Other then Olofsson and Asplund in the second half last year, none of Murray’s draft picks have been key to the Amerks success the last two years, but they should be if he had drafted well.  First 3 round picks like Guhle, Cornel, Karabacek, Martin, Nylander, and Johansson should have been the core of a good Amerks team, but they aren’t.  Only 7th rd pick Olofsson and 2nd rd pick Asplund have really come through.  Guhle was Ok, but never showed the improvement to needed to win a top pairing assignment in the A or win a job full time in Buffalo and was traded because of it. Also TM had to have Asplund because he was the last player on his list with a 1st rd grade.  According to most of the pre-draft materials, Alex Debrincat had a higher grade. Sadly he went 39th and has since played 164 NHL games with 69g and 59a for 128 pts.  When TM grabbed Karabacek at 49, Dvorak , Donato and Montour were all still on the board.  So much for his talent evaluation skills.

Give TM a passing grade on drafting if you want, but that’s about all TM can hang his hat on.  When I look at his sending away guys like Zadorov, Compher and Lemieux, tossing away two 1st rd picks and the 31st overall pick in the depth 2015 draft. Dumping 2 2nd rd picks (one used on Cernak for TB) and McNabb for Fasching, it takes away any luster from getting lucky on a 2014 7th rd pick. I often wonder if TM had just kept these guys instead of rushing the rebuild, my guess is we’d have a much deeper and better team.

Also his draftees outside Jack and Sam have played a total of 52 NHL games so far for the Sabres. 

Edited by GASabresIUFAN
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