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Sabres Trade Alex Nylander to Chicago for D Man Henri Jokiharju


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1 minute ago, SwampD said:

Because people are drooling over themselves about what a steal this trade is, while at the same time we’re being told that Nylander is the guy with more talent, he just isn’t motivated, all while we know (rumored to know) that he had been in a toxic environment that maybe he feels the organ-eye-zation knew about. Does anybody actual talk to these guys?! We know GMTM/DB didn’t.

I dream of a day when the Sabre hold on to talent instead of this addition by subtraction method of team building that hasn’t worked out so well for us.

Define "talent".

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8 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

I tried to explain that in that post - he sucks if he's a player you're sticking out on NHL ice night after night. In that context, the thing he sucks at is helping the pro hockey team towards the immediate goal - winning tonight, and this season. When I say a player sucks that's what I'm talking about because I mostly avoid all of the prospect discussion around here because it's not that interesting to me. He obviously can become more than a bad NHLer, which, in a different context than one in which I say he sucks (likely lamenting something or other about a recent game or the roster or blah blah blah) I am happy to acknowledge.

But hey, you're getting at suggesting a way I can be less off-putting. I can try to use the word suck less, and use more words to convey these extra points

This is probably why you run into problems.  You are only accepting that the goal was to win that night and win in the season. The Sabres were never a team that was designed to win that given night or win last season. In fact, many teams do not enter a season with that as the ultimate goal. If managing a hockey team were a one and done scenario then it would be about winning.  However, managing a hockey team is about multiple seasons and the development of players over time. Some seasons are not about winning but about improving and developing.  As such, using winning tonight and this season as your measuring stick you are likely to find decisions and actions of which you will not approve.

You can argue what the goal should be.  But if the goal was to develop Thompson then the ruling on how he was developed needs to be held until it's clear it was wrong.

19 minutes ago, GoPre said:

Interesting - Just heard Chicago has now traded every 1st round pick from 2011 to 2017.  

You must have missed the tweet someone copied a few pages back.  Stan Bowman is not good.

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2 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Charts are annoying. Especially for prospects. Stats are a result, not a reason.

So unless your stats are good right out of the gate, you are never going to make it in the NHL and we should just write them off. Gottit.

My posts have all been present tense for a reason. Thompson is bad. He doesn't have to stay that way. I'd bet he does, but it's not a given. 

That said, young players who go on to be good usually do show signs of life in the underlying metrics before their traditional metrics and reputation catch up. 

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Small sample size, but the two games Tage got with Jack, they were outscored 5-1 and he turned that line into something essentially useless compared to what they could do without him. Those games actually stick out in my mind when thinking back because they were particularly bad even for him. It's a Tage-processing-NHL-speed issue, not a Tage-linemate issue. He just wasn't ready for the show yet. 

3 minutes ago, LTS said:

This is probably why you run into problems.  You are only accepting that the goal was to win that night and win in the season. The Sabres were never a team that was designed to win that given night or win last season. In fact, many teams do not enter a season with that as the ultimate goal. If managing a hockey team were a one and done scenario then it would be about winning.  However, managing a hockey team is about multiple seasons and the development of players over time. Some seasons are not about winning but about improving and developing.  As such, using winning tonight and this season as your measuring stick you are likely to find decisions and actions of which you will not approve.

You can argue what the goal should be.  But if the goal was to develop Thompson then the ruling on how he was developed needs to be held until it's clear it was wrong.

You must have missed the tweet someone copied a few pages back.  Stan Bowman is not good.

I get all of that, and so I'm not saying that it's all the Sabres SHOULD be trying to do, or what they ARE trying to do. But I pay a lot of money for Buffalo Sabres NHL hockey, so when I'm analyzing it, that's the lens I take, because it gets right to the point of what I'm even doing in the first place. It's like my sole obsession and hobby, ya know?

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2 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Holy sh1t is there a lot of Tage Thompson talk up in har.

I think that's my bad.

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I'm tempted to watch a few blackhawks games tbh, I'm not sure if I have time now though, it might have to wait until next month

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Just now, Randall Flagg said:

I think that's my bad.

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I'm tempted to watch a few blackhawks games tbh, I'm not sure if I have time now though, it might have to wait until next month

Well if you come to the 4th Annual SS Meetup...

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3 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Holy sh1t is there a lot of Tage Thompson talk up in har.

I think if he had spent the year in the AHL we wouldn't be talking about him at all. But since he was plugged into this roster, and didn't do anything, there is some angst.

I don't know if he'll ever be any good, but you gotta think this is the year he either makes it stick or he doesn't.

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Just now, SwampD said:

What you’ll see from Nylander on Chicago.

 

teehee.

I'm intrigued to see this, because his thing appears to be finding that soft spot for his teammates to get him the puck, and man oh man is that the entire point of Chicago's game. And I'm not convinced it's evidence of him not caring or trying just yet. 

But I'm happy with the trade either way.

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3 minutes ago, SwampD said:

What you’ll see from Nylander on Chicago.

 

teehee.

You mean floating in the defensive zone, some average speed in his transition and an occasional nice play in the offensive zone followed by 2-3 shifts of nothing?

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6 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I get all of that, and so I'm not saying that it's all the Sabres SHOULD be trying to do, or what they ARE trying to do. But I pay a lot of money for Buffalo Sabres NHL hockey, so when I'm analyzing it, that's the lens I take, because it gets right to the point of what I'm even doing in the first place. It's like my sole obsession and hobby, ya know?

Actually, I don't.  It sounds like you are saying that you understand there are reasons. other than winning, that decisions might be made but then choose to ignore them because you only want to analyze it against winning.  What's the point of your analysis if it doesn't speak to what the Sabres are trying to do and rather speaks to something they are not trying to do?  

 

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2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

I'm intrigued to see this, because his thing appears to be finding that soft spot for his teammates to get him the puck, and man oh man is that the entire point of Chicago's game. And I'm not convinced it's evidence of him not caring or trying just yet. 

But I'm happy with the trade either way.

Yea, he is primarily an offensive passenger. 

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I have no issue with all the Tage talk. 

I've come to view the term "thread-hijacking" as a needlessly negative way of describing the natural flow of online conversation. Sometimes the term is apt, but mostly I don't like it.

Edited by That Aud Smell
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5 minutes ago, LTS said:

Actually, I don't.  It sounds like you are saying that you understand there are reasons. other than winning, that decisions might be made but then choose to ignore them because you only want to analyze it against winning.  What's the point of your analysis if it doesn't speak to what the Sabres are trying to do and rather speaks to something they are not trying to do?  

 

I think I need to take a step back here. 

I treat all skaters in an NHL sweater as pieces that directly affect the ultimate thing that matters more than anything else, certainly to me - NHL wins. Because prospect or vet, their successes and failures explicitly do this (affect the NHL game they're playing in) in the here and now, equally to each other. I don't change verbiage depending on the nature of the player when I'm trying to describe what is happening on the ice in relation to tonight's NHL game and this NHL season, because it serves no purpose except to delineate how we might proceed with said player going forward, which usually has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

This is different from saying that there might be a purpose to letting a player struggle for development.

Which is different still from saying that there are multiple reasons NHL organizations do the things they do.

And should certainly never imply that every choice the Cleveland Browns of the NHL make is correct - as the player submarines his NHL team while having his confidence eroded.  

4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Yea, he is primarily an offensive passenger. 

These guys can be devastating on a team that knows how to use off-puck rovers-of-sorts. 

Edited by Randall Flagg
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11 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

In what way?

Two very promising young players/high draft picks who haven't yet lived up to expectations, nobody's sure if they will. One has maybe shown more than the other so far, but one may have a higher ceiling. Lots of people think one side or the other got fleeced, but only time will tell. I always find these trades really interesting, because there is so much risk in trading young talent that could blossom big-time. 

And like with Kassian for Hodgson, both teams involved will be comparing their careers for a long time. Unless they don't have long careers. 

Edited by Skibum
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Quote

As for the fancier stats, Jokiharju checks a lot of boxes. According to NaturalStatTrick.com, his Corsi For percentage was 54.1 at five-on-five. For players with as much time on ice as Jokiharju or more, that number ranked him above all qualifying Sabres players. Better than Rasmus Dahlin, better than Jack Eichel, better than Jeff Skinner.

Joe Yerdon's Athletic piece: https://theathletic.com/1070088/2019/07/09/sabres-crowd-their-blue-line-in-a-trade-alexander-nylander-is-out-and-henri-jokiharju-is-in/

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30 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Because people are drooling over themselves about what a steal this trade is, while at the same time we’re being told that Nylander is the guy with more talent, he just isn’t motivated, all while we know (rumored to know) that he had been in a toxic environment that maybe he feels the organ-eye-zation knew about. Does anybody actual talk to these guys?! We know GMTM/DB didn’t.

I dream of a day when the Sabre hold on to talent instead of this addition by subtraction method of team building that hasn’t worked out so well for us.

This was not addition by subration.  It was talent in, talent out.  Just because one guy somewhere (whichever media personality it was) said Nylander has more talent doesn't make it true.  Also, pure physical talent is not the only thing that matters.

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46 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

How much ice time did they actually have together in St. Louis. 

Anyway, know who else had significant ice time with Sobotka this season? Rodrigues and Pominville's corpse. Know whose metrics weren't utterly destroyed by it? Rodrigues and Pominville's corpse. Why? Because they're not also bad hockey players. 

Sobotka is/was horrible and certainly dragged his linemates down, there's no disputing that. He should never see NHL ice again. But Thompson was also bad and dragged his linemates down. These things are not mutually exclusive. 

 

You should compare Mitts to Thompson. Id be curious to see what that looks like. 

Edited by LGR4GM
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