Sabres Fan in NS Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 Well, @TrueBlueGED, there's your answer. Bludgeon away. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said: Fancy stats are fun to look at any may give you some insight, but they are very dependent on linemates, competition and overall team. Jbot wanted scoring and got some for very little cost in terms of cap, term and assets. That’s his job. Y’all seem to forget that I suggested Donskoi as a target at season’s end, but to sit here and say he’s worth a $16 mill investment for a 3rd line player that will always be a 3rd line player is a bit silly. Vesey is a better goal scorer and a little younger and was available. Jbot rightly went and got him. We have no idea if Donskoi was even interested in coming here or whether he priced himself out of our consideration. Both are/would have been improvements over what we had. I wonder what y’all will be saying when he scores 25 here next year? THIS IS FOR THE 2018/19 SEASON NFREEMAN. THE SEASON THAT JUST ENDED. IT STARTED JULY 1 2018 AND ENDED JUNE 30 2019. THE LAST SEASON THE NHL PLAYED GAMES WHERE ST.LOUIS WON THE STANLEY CUP WITH RYAN O'REILLY. HOPE THAT HELPS YOU. You have now said this multiple times and it simply is not true when comparing him to Donskoi. You are not accounting for TOI at all. When you normalize TOI to goals for per 60minutes the picture changes dramatically. Donskoi is a better goal scorer than Jimmy Vesey. Donskoi: 3.3 GF/60 Vesey: 2.68 GF/60 So when you correct for minutes played and run the math Joonas Donskoi outscores Vesey. Further since scoring is only ever half the equation (see what Ristolainen sucks) let's look at their GA/60 Donskoi: 2.52 GA/60 Vesey: 3.14 GA/60 That then gives us their goals for percentage which should be at 50% if they are breaking even. Over 50% means you are a positive contributor. Donskoi: 56.73% Vesey: 46.03% So in conclusion, Joonas Donskoi not only scores more goals per 60minutes than Vesey but also defends at a rate that means he tilts the ice in his teams favor by 6.73% compared to Vesey at -3.97%. Even if Vesey is better with better teammates, every single stat shows that Donskoi is already better and would continue to be better considering they had similar roles on different teams. Joonas Donskoi is a better goal scorer than Jimmy Vesey. I have no problem with the trade and am fine with it, just saying Vesey isn't some magical player we just found. He's a mediocre 2nd/3rd line guy who can probably put up 20 goals if given more of a role but needs defensive support. And here is the proof courtesy of Nat Stat Trick, for 2018/19 SEASON. Edited July 2, 2019 by LGR4GM 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said: Fancy stats are fun to look at any may give you some insight, but they are very dependent on linemates, competition and overall team. Jbot wanted scoring and got some for very little cost in terms of cap, term and assets. That’s his job. Y’all seem to forget that I suggested Donskoi as a target at season’s end, but to sit here and say he’s worth a $16 mill investment for a 3rd line player that will always be a 3rd line player is a bit silly. Vesey is a better goal scorer and a little younger and was available. Jbot rightly went and got him. We have no idea if Donskoi was even interested in coming here or whether he priced himself out of our consideration. Both are/would have been improvements over what we had. I wonder what y’all will be saying when he scores 25 here next year? At least it wasn't Pominville stapled to Eichel's hip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 I’m not sure where you get your stars, but Vesey has averaged 14:45 toi for his career while Donskoi 14:04. Vesey averages scores .21 g/gp to Donskoi at .16g/gp. I’m sorry but how does a player who plays nearly the same minutes per night yet scores less per game played magically become a better goal scorer. That is some serious funny math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 hour ago, PASabreFan said: Correct. Because opinions that stray from GroupThink have to labeled as trolling, with the requisite PP slap from the higher-ups. Now, if you agree with it — THIS. Or... the thumby-thingie. 1 hour ago, darksabre said: I ain't touching that lol I was gonna say something. 58 minutes ago, nfreeman said: What percentage of "opinions that stray from GroupThink" are labeled trolling? What percentage of such trolling labels are issued from the mods? What pecentage of such opinions occasion a PP slap (yuck) from the mods? (Hint: each is almost zero.) But I think this about covers the waterfront. You can (may?) have a good cause, @PASabreFan, but if you choose to champion it based on bad facts, you lose ground. @pi2000's take-down of Vesey was preposterous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said: I’m not sure where you get your stars, but Vesey has averaged 14:45 toi for his career while Donskoi 14:04. Vesey averages scores .21 g/gp to Donskoi at .16g/gp. I’m sorry but how does a player who plays nearly the same minutes per night yet scores less per game played magically become a better goal scorer. That is some serious funny math. You used last year's goals to make your point. I used the same. So no it's not funny math. Sometimes ppl are wrong, move on. In the previous season, Donskoi outperformed Vesey, period. Edited July 2, 2019 by LGR4GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: You used last year's goals to make your point. I used the same. So no it's not funny math. Sometimes ppl are wrong, move on. I used the career stats for both players both goals per game and toi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 18 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: You used last year's goals to make your point. I used the same. So no it's not funny math. Sometimes ppl are wrong, move on. In the previous season, Donskoi outperformed Vesey, period. Busted for #Hammymath! And to think I initially gave your post a thumbs-up! The horror. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radar Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 14 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: You used last year's goals to make your point. I used the same. So no it's not funny math. Sometimes ppl are wrong, move on. In the previous season, Donskoi outperformed Vesey, period. Vesey 17g, 18a. Donskoi 14g, 23a. Regular season two points difference. Plus/minus favors Donskoi. That stat can be effected by factors not necessarily players fault. Overall I say take your pick between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said: FYI Vesey 26 - 240 NHL games 50g, 40a 90 pts - 2018-19 17g 18a 35pts Sheary 27 - 262 NHL games 62g, 65a 127 pts - 2018-19 14g 20a 34pts Donskoi 27 - 283 NHL games 44g, 77a 122 pts - 2018-19 14g 23a 37pts Ferlund 27 - 321 NHL games 59g 70a 129 pts - 2018-19 17g 23a 40 pts. Acquiring Vesey is almost exactly the same as signing Ferland and Donskoi. 2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said: Last I look scoring are goals. Points include assists. Donskoi and Ferland are better all-around players, but they aren’t better goal scorers. 1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said: Fancy stats are fun to look at any may give you some insight, but they are very dependent on linemates, competition and overall team. Jbot wanted scoring and got some for very little cost in terms of cap, term and assets. That’s his job. Y’all seem to forget that I suggested Donskoi as a target at season’s end, but to sit here and say he’s worth a $16 mill investment for a 3rd line player that will always be a 3rd line player is a bit silly. Vesey is a better goal scorer and a little younger and was available. Jbot rightly went and got him. We have no idea if Donskoi was even interested in coming here or whether he priced himself out of our consideration. Both are/would have been improvements over what we had. I wonder what y’all will be saying when he scores 25 here next year? 1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said: I’m not sure where you get your stars, but Vesey has averaged 14:45 toi for his career while Donskoi 14:04. Vesey averages scores .21 g/gp to Donskoi at .16g/gp. I’m sorry but how does a player who plays nearly the same minutes per night yet scores less per game played magically become a better goal scorer. That is some serious funny math. 1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said: I used the career stats for both players both goals per game and toi. No, you did not use Goals per 60 which accounts for toi. You said vesey was a better goal scorer. I literally proved in their last season 2018/2019 Donskoi outscored Vesey both in goals per 60 and even taking into account goals against per 60. Donskoi out-produced vesey last season in most metrics. Your original post used last season as part of it and that's what I reviewed. There's no ***** hammy math. It's as straight forward as you can get. Last season Donskoi was better. Edited July 2, 2019 by LGR4GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: No, you did not use Goals per 60 which accounts for toi. You said vesey was a better goal scorer. I literally proved in their last season 2018/2019 Donskoi outscored Vesey both in goals per 60 and even taking into account goals against per 60. Donskoi out-produced vesey last season in most metrics. Your original post used last season as part of it and that's what I reviewed. There's no ***** hammy math. It's as straight forward as you can get. Last season Donskoi was better. Except that your post (which, but for than the critical #Hammymath omission was excellent and would have effectively destroyed @GASabresIUFAN's point) nowhere mentions that the analysis is limited to last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthEbriate Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, nfreeman said: Except that your post (which, but for than the critical #Hammymath omission was excellent and would have effectively destroyed @GASabresIUFAN's point) nowhere mentions that the analysis is limited to last season. So... you're saying... it's #Hammytime? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi2000 Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 As a former player (who turned down an offer to play pro to finish school), I had many friends and teammates that went on to play pro hockey and a select few at the highest level. The NHL is not just a regular job. It's an exclusive club. You grow up dreaming just to get the chance to play 1 shift at that level. It's an absolute honor when a team shows interest and invests in you, using draft capital, investing developmental resources over many years; training, dev camps, time, money, video, personnel, etc... to help you develop as a player so you can realize your dream, all on their dime. What Vesey did to Nashville and David Poile was downright disgraceful. Vesey even told Poile that he was going to sign after the season. Poile made several trips to meet with Vesey face-to-face, but instead of signing with the team that took a chance on him and invested years of time/money/resources in his development, he lied just so he could make a selfish decision. Did the CBA give him that opportunity? Sure it did. He didn't break any rules. Did Murray make a smart move by trading a 3rd for his rights when they knew he wanted to become an UFA? Probably not, but he took a chance. However, what Vesey did to NSH was dishonorable and selfish, and speaks volumes about his character. He's the kind of guy who steals your girlfriend and feels no remorse about it, because hey... as long as he get what he wants, then that's all that matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 Just to be clear, you never played in the NHL, were never drafted, never had an NHL agent, and never engaged in any kind of NHL contract negotiations, but you feel that puts you in a position to judge someone who has? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 minute ago, darksabre said: Just to be clear, you never played in the NHL, were never drafted, never had an NHL agent, and never engaged in any kind of NHL contract negotiations, but you feel that puts you in a position to judge someone who has? Yes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 hour ago, nfreeman said: Busted for #Hammymath! And to think I initially gave your post a thumbs-up! The horror. 54 minutes ago, nfreeman said: Except that your post (which, but for than the critical #Hammymath omission was excellent and would have effectively destroyed @GASabresIUFAN's point) nowhere mentions that the analysis is limited to last season. Try again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Youth Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 44 minutes ago, pi2000 said: As a former player (who turned down an offer to play pro to finish school), I had many friends and teammates that went on to play pro hockey and a select few at the highest level. The NHL is not just a regular job. It's an exclusive club. You grow up dreaming just to get the chance to play 1 shift at that level. It's an absolute honor when a team shows interest and invests in you, using draft capital, investing developmental resources over many years; training, dev camps, time, money, video, personnel, etc... to help you develop as a player so you can realize your dream, all on their dime. What Vesey did to Nashville and David Poile was downright disgraceful. Vesey even told Poile that he was going to sign after the season. Poile made several trips to meet with Vesey face-to-face, but instead of signing with the team that took a chance on him and invested years of time/money/resources in his development, he lied just so he could make a selfish decision. Did the CBA give him that opportunity? Sure it did. He didn't break any rules. Did Murray make a smart move by trading a 3rd for his rights when they knew he wanted to become an UFA? Probably not, but he took a chance. However, what Vesey did to NSH was dishonorable and selfish, and speaks volumes about his character. He's the kind of guy who steals your girlfriend and feels no remorse about it, because hey... as long as he get what he wants, then that's all that matters. This is not trolling, folks. It’s just a bad take. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Cascade Youth said: This is not trolling, folks. It’s just a bad take. Why? Because you disagree? pi has just as much chance of being right about him as you or d4rk do. (sorry dark, you'll always be d4rk to me.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 Just now, SwampD said: Why? Because you disagree? pi has just as much chance of being right about him as you or d4rk do. (sorry dark, you'll always be d4rk to me.) Honestly hadn’t realized he switched back lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrico Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 Ya I had to double check also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 29 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: Try again. How do players who score less then a quarter of a goal per game playing about 15 minutes per game suddenly score 2.5 or 3 goals per 60. That doesn’t make any sense. For Vesey’s career he scores .21 goals per game playing 14:45. That’s .85 g/60 Donskoi is .16 g/gp playing 14:04. That’s .68 g/60. please explain your math. By the way Vogl uses.78 for Vesey for last season g/60. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) That's nat stat tricks math. /60 - Rate per 60 minutes of play. Stat*60/TOI https://www.naturalstattrick.com/glossary.php?players If I missed understood their process or glossary that's fair but I'm not doing hammy math. Edited July 2, 2019 by LGR4GM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 Just now, Let's Go B-Lo said: I'm curious. Berglund wants back in the NHL, we need a center. You OK with signing him? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Youth Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 14 minutes ago, SwampD said: Why? Because you disagree? pi has just as much chance of being right about him as you or d4rk do. (sorry dark, you'll always be d4rk to me.) Right about Vesey being a selfish jerk for choosing the Rangers - after his agent made it clear before Murray wasted a draft pick that Vesey planned to rest the market? I’d say Pi has less of a chance of being right, actually. And the entire exercise is a disgrace - remember, his first point in this thread was to express delight that Vesey will be booed on home ice. Please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 11 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said: How do players who score less then a quarter of a goal per game playing about 15 minutes per game suddenly score 2.5 or 3 goals per 60. That doesn’t make any sense. For Vesey’s career he scores .21 goals per game playing 14:45. That’s .85 g/60 Donskoi is .16 g/gp playing 14:04. That’s .68 g/60. please explain your math. By the way Vogl uses.78 for Vesey for last season g/60. 5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: That's nat stat tricks math. /60 - Rate per 60 minutes of play. Stat*60/TOI https://www.naturalstattrick.com/glossary.php?players If I missed understood their process or glossary that's fair but I'm not doing hammy math. I could be wrong, but I believe @LGR4GM's stats are team goals for/against per 60 min, not goals scored by Vesey/Donskoi themselves. (So it's a big #hammymath-ish to claim that "Donskoi outproduces Vesey" -- but I hope Liger doesn't blow a gasket from that reference.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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