Jbot Do Something Already Off-season 2019

[Curt]

14 hours ago, Thorny said:

It definitely got to the point for me where I was thinking it my head, "they can't not be for real after this". So the collapse was rather shocking and it left a bad taste.

But I did go from loving the streak, to being upset with the whole situation as if being tricked, to at the end of the day just being thankful I had the good memories from the streak, at least, it an (mostly, (certain individual players)) otherwise downer of a season.

I spent the whole streak thinking "they can not keep this up, this is crazy!"  I loved every second of it, but how many OT/shootout wins can one team have in a row?  Its not like they were blowing out teams left and right.

The complete collapse left a very sour taste in my mouth too though.  I never thought they would turn so bad.

[Hoss]

Soderberg is a player I would've taken at the price it took to acquire him. A journeyman dman and a 3. Scandella and a 3 or 4 should've beat that.

[Marvin]

4 hours ago, Radar said:

I always was cautious about putting to much value on coaching and Trots and contrasting Housley has made me think I should put much more value on coaching.

True Story on why I put way more importance on coaching and the GM than most:

I went to a hockey camp at Holiday Twin Rinks after the 1974-5 season for the last 2 weeks.  The penultimate week, Floyd Smith ran drills and such for the kids; I can't recall what other weeks he did.  During the last week, Fred Shero came in; he only did a few days, if memory serves me right.

After the first day with Shero, I was in tears when my parents picked me up.  After I got into the car, my mom asked me what was wrong.  I recall my answer clearly.  "The Sabres are never going to win a Cup with Floyd Smith."  I then went on to elaborate what I preferred about Shero.

IMHO, although Bernie Parent vs. Gerry Desjardins was the deciding factor in that series, coaching made the Sabres permanent underdogs among the top teams.  To this day, I believe that coaching was also the Sabres' ultimate problem with Montreal, Boston, Philadelphia, and the Islanders in subsequent years.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

Soderberg is a player I would've taken at the price it took to acquire him. A journeyman dman and a 3. Scandella and a 3 or 4 should've beat that.

Soderberg had a nice bounce back year.  Would have been a good addition.  

Things are moving quick out there.  DeHaan was traded as well recently.  

I feel like we are watching a game of musical chairs and Jbot is going to be the one without a chair (and the Sabres not improved) when the music stops.

That said he could be waiting for teams to over-sign and be over the cap. Then desperate GM’s will be calling and panicking and will do anything to get under the cap.

Think Eddie Murphy running Duke and Duke in Trading Places.

 

FYI: Ferlund won’t be back with the Canes next year. He’d add some grit and a decent skill level to the Sabres.

Edited June 25, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

This is what I’d by doing tomorrow if I was Jason Botterill.

I would separately bring in Brayden Point, Matthew Tkachuk and Sebastian Aho for a grand tour of the Sabres first-class facilities. I’d sit them down briefly in a perfect setting where Kim and Terry can best showcase their we’ll-treat-you-right rich-people charm. I’d talk about how we have the franchise centre, the franchise defenceman, and a boatload of World Junior stars poised to come into their own. And I would say “we think we are one player away from a core that can be elite, for the next 10 years, and we think that player might be you. Have you met Ralph? i’ll leave you two alone to talk about how we do things around here.”

I would then tell their agents “we have about $10 million set aside for an offer sheet that we plan to present to to one of three players we’ve talked to. Do you want to work with us in putting together a sheet that will allow us to build something special together in Buffalo?

If they say yes, I phone up the lucky GMs and say “we have an offer sheet pending July 1. Care to make a deal instead?”

And then we see what happens.

Edited June 25, 2019 by dudacek

[Kruppstahl]

Botterill is way too cautious and conservative by nature; I think he's shown that to date.

Not sure he realizes the scope of this off-season project!  

Swapping out secondary and tertiary contributors for different names doing the same type of thing ain't gonna cut it.

I do think we will start to see some moves soon though.

 

 

[Curt]

I would like to see the Sabres go after trades with Winnipeg and Vegas to try to take advantage of their cap problems.

Possible targets from Winnipeg:  Either Kyle Connor or Nikolaj Ehlers, Mathieu Perrault, Adam Lowry, Dimitri Kulikov(possible buyout)

Possible targets from Vegas:  Colin Miller, Paul Stastny, Cody Eakin, Ryan Reeves(possible buyout)

Possible Buffalo players going the other way:  Rasmus Ristolainen, Jake McCabe, Casey Nelson, Alex Nylander, Zemgus Girgensons, Johan Larsson

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, E4 ... Ke2 said:

True Story on why I put way more importance on coaching and the GM than most:

I went to a hockey camp at Holiday Twin Rinks after the 1974-5 season for the last 2 weeks.  The penultimate week, Floyd Smith ran drills and such for the kids; I can't recall what other weeks he did.  During the last week, Fred Shero came in; he only did a few days, if memory serves me right.

After the first day with Shero, I was in tears when my parents picked me up.  After I got into the car, my mom asked me what was wrong.  I recall my answer clearly.  "The Sabres are never going to win a Cup with Floyd Smith."  I then went on to elaborate what I preferred about Shero.

IMHO, although Bernie Parent vs. Gerry Desjardins was the deciding factor in that series, coaching made the Sabres permanent underdogs among the top teams.  To this day, I believe that coaching was also the Sabres' ultimate problem with Montreal, Boston, Philadelphia, and the Islanders in subsequent years.

Interesting story.  A boy as young as you could tell that Fred Shero was a better coach than Floyd Smith from how they ran drills for kids?    Maybe Smitty went easy on you guys because he was too a nice guy?   :)  LOL     Smith was not a great coach but he was a very good player in his day back  in the 6 team league. 

I was at those Stanely Cup games.  The difference was indeed Bernie Parent.  Shero was an excellent coach, I saw that when he coached the Bisons of the AHL.  Floyd Smith was just ok.   The Sabres had the better team outside of the goaltending.  Unfortunately Bernie Parent was the best goalie in the league and he played lights out in two straight SCFs.   Roger Crozier was not healthy and Desjardins was picked up late in the season.  Desjardins played good hockey and he did have a few very strong years with Buffalo.   

I agree that coaching is huge.  While I don't think Buffalo has a history of great coaches we did have Scotty bowman for Coach and GM for quite awhile.  He never got us to the finals yet he won Cups everywhere else he had been.  He inherited a talented team and stripped it down for draft choices.  Some of his picks worked out (Barrasso, Mike Ramsey, Andreychuck, Housley) and some did not (Steve Patrick, Jiri Dudacek, Norm Lacombe).  His teams were a hodge-podge of vets and rookies and to me they seemed to lack any real chemistry. 

Other than Torts I cannot think of a Buffalo coach that won a Cup as a HC? 

[darksabre]

40 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

Botterill is way too cautious and conservative by nature; I think he's shown that to date.

Not sure he realizes the scope of this off-season project!  

Swapping out secondary and tertiary contributors for different names doing the same type of thing ain't gonna cut it.

I do think we will start to see some moves soon though.

 

 

Trading for Skinner was cautious?

[dudacek]

Dumping a top 2nd line centre without a replacement was cautious?

[kas23]

I think signing a RFA in exchange for 4 1st rounders is reckless. I don’t think Jbot has the nuts and opposing GMs would likely call his bluff. 

 

I also think the “forced trade” of ROR still stings for him. If a team isn’t calling him with a small treasure for Risto (and they likely aren’t), he’s not going to unnecessarily trade him. 

Edited June 25, 2019 by kas23

[Scottysabres]

9 minutes ago, kas23 said:

I think signing a RFA in exchange for 4 1st rounders is reckless. I don’t think Jbot has the nuts and opposing GMs would likely call his bluff. 

 

I also think the “forced trade” of ROR still stings for him. If a team isn’t calling him with a small treasure for Risto (and they likely aren’t), he’s not going to unnecessarily trade him. 

I agree.

Although I would love him to throw an offer sheet Time Meier

[Taro T]

17 minutes ago, kas23 said:

I think signing a RFA in exchange for 4 1st rounders is reckless. I don’t think Jbot has the nuts and opposing GMs would likely call his bluff. 

 

I also think the “forced trade” of ROR still stings for him. If a team isn’t calling him with a small treasure for Risto (and they likely aren’t), he’s not going to unnecessarily trade him.

Let's hope so.  Getting back a tweener prospect, 2 picks, and a lot of junk for him would be beyond frustrating.

On paper, they have the best D in a long time heading into the season.

Don't weaken it unless they significantly upgrade line 2.

[kas23]

59 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

I agree.

Although I would love him to throw an offer sheet Time Meier

I went back and looked at offer sheets over the past 10 years. It has been a rare event, only 5 times. In each of them, the sheet was matched.  Granted, most of these offers were small potatoes, with the exception of Shea Weber, and wouldn’t have necessarily triggered the 4 1st rounders (although I’m not positive about this because the threshold changes every year). RORs was in 2013 and just a 2 year, $10M deal. We all remember Vanek’s in 2007, which, in hindsight, would’ve been amazing if we didn’t match it. 

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

This is what I’d by doing tomorrow if I was Jason Botterill.

I would separately bring in Brayden Point, Matthew Tkachuk and Sebastian Aho for a grand tour of the Sabres first-class facilities. I’d sit them down briefly in a perfect setting where Kim and Terry can best showcase their we’ll-treat-you-right rich-people charm. I’d talk about how we have the franchise centre, the franchise defenceman, and a boatload of World Junior stars poised to come into their own. And I would say “we think we are one player away from a core that can be elite, for the next 10 years, and we think that player might be you. Have you met Ralph? i’ll leave you two alone to talk about how we do things around here.”

I would then tell their agents “we have about $10 million set aside for an offer sheet that we plan to present to to one of three players we’ve talked to. Do you want to work with us in putting together a sheet that will allow us to build something special together in Buffalo?

If they say yes, I phone up the lucky GMs and say “we have an offer sheet pending July 1. Care to make a deal instead?”

And then we see what happens.

See bold.  Understand your describing a fantasy but the bold is where the whole thing falls apart.   Do what?  Miss the playoffs 8 years in a row?  

Edited June 26, 2019 by Pimlach

[dudacek]

6 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

See bold.  Understand your describing a fantasy but but is where the whole thing falls apart.   Do what?  Miss the playoffs 8 years in a row?  

My fantasy includes a coach who magically makes players want to play for him.

Get with the program ?

[sabresparaavida]

The "making a deal instead" of the offer sheet will never work out well. You would want something worth less than the 4 firsts (or whatever bracket it's in) and they would want more. If you don't give them a better offer, they can just walk away and get their picks. Your scenario really doesn't help us much at all in lessening the assets we would give up.

[dudacek]

10 minutes ago, sabresparaavida said:

The "making a deal instead" of the offer sheet will never work out well. You would want something worth less than the 4 firsts (or whatever bracket it's in) and they would want more. If you don't give them a better offer, they can just walk away and get their picks. Your scenario really doesn't help us much at all in lessening the assets we would give up.

I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. It’s a classic “offer you can’t refuse” scenario.

The whole point is that I have no problem giving up the picks for any of the three players and will sign the sheet if we can’t come to a deal. I’m also willing to even add a smidge if guarantees we get the player. And it is entirely possible to come up with a package that both teams would rather have than the picks.

For example, maybe Tampa, a team that wants to win now, would rather have Risto and Mittelstadt and have us take Callahan’s contract. Who knows?

Edited June 26, 2019 by dudacek

[Marvin]

4 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Interesting story.  A boy as young as you could tell that Fred Shero was a better coach than Floyd Smith from how they ran drills for kids?    Maybe Smitty went easy on you guys because he was too a nice guy?   ?  LOL     Smith was not a great coach but he was a very good player in his day back  in the 6 team league. 

I was at those Stanely Cup games.  The difference was indeed Bernie Parent.  Shero was an excellent coach, I saw that when he coached the Bisons of the AHL.  Floyd Smith was just ok.   The Sabres had the better team outside of the goaltending.  Unfortunately Bernie Parent was the best goalie in the league and he played lights out in two straight SCFs.   Roger Crozier was not healthy and Desjardins was picked up late in the season.  Desjardins played good hockey and he did have a few very strong years with Buffalo.   

I agree that coaching is huge.  While I don't think Buffalo has a history of great coaches we did have Scotty bowman for Coach and GM for quite awhile.  He never got us to the finals yet he won Cups everywhere else he had been.  He inherited a talented team and stripped it down for draft choices.  Some of his picks worked out (Barrasso, Mike Ramsey, Andreychuck, Housley) and some did not (Steve Patrick, Jiri Dudacek, Norm Lacombe).  His teams were a hodge-podge of vets and rookies and to me they seemed to lack any real chemistry. 

Other than Torts I cannot think of a Buffalo coach that won a Cup as a HC? 

It was hard to describe even back then.  I definitely remember that his explanation for the drills made a lot more sense than Floyd Smith's.  The practises were smoother and seemed to flow from one skill to the next very naturally.  They also made a kind of thematic sense.  You could tell he was a greater student of the game.

I saw some interviews many years later where Al Arbour and Emile Francis said that Fred Shero was the first to really understand why the Soviets' training methods were done how they were and what results they were trying to get.  He was able to take thugs like Dave Schultz, Don Saleski, Orest Kindrachuck, and Gary Dornhoefer and turn them in to useful players in that they could kill time and not get scored on with alacrity.  (Unlike the Sabres' Michel Deziel, Morris Titanic, Larry Mickey, and Norm Gratton from that same season.)

On Bowman, I think that he did not really know how to be a good GM until he reflected on his mistakes here.

[PerreaultForever]

49 minutes ago, dudacek said:

For example, maybe Tampa, a team that wants to win now, would rather have Risto and Mittelstadt and have us take Callahan’s contract. Who knows?

Callahan pulled a Hossa and went IR.  He's no longer a problem for them. 

[dudacek]

15 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Callahan pulled a Hossa and went IR.  He's no longer a problem for them. 

Talk is they still want to move contract for flexibility since he has to be on the starting roster before they can shuffle him to IR.

[Pimlach]

10 hours ago, E4 ... Ke2 said:

It was hard to describe even back then.  I definitely remember that his explanation for the drills made a lot more sense than Floyd Smith's.  The practises were smoother and seemed to flow from one skill to the next very naturally.  They also made a kind of thematic sense.  You could tell he was a greater student of the game.

I saw some interviews many years later where Al Arbour and Emile Francis said that Fred Shero was the first to really understand why the Soviets' training methods were done how they were and what results they were trying to get.  He was able to take thugs like Dave Schultz, Don Saleski, Orest Kindrachuck, and Gary Dornhoefer and turn them in to useful players in that they could kill time and not get scored on with alacrity.  (Unlike the Sabres' Michel Deziel, Morris Titanic, Larry Mickey, and Norm Gratton from that same season.)

On Bowman, I think that he did not really know how to be a good GM until he reflected on his mistakes here.

It makes some sense. Shero was never a very good player, he dedicated himself to coaching, teaching, and studying the game.  

Smith was a good NHL player.  He went from Sabres captain to head coach with little if any coaching experience.  Shero was far more dedicated to the coaching craft.  

Shero had a handful of great players and a handful of thugs.  His thugs would basically take your thugs plus some of your good players  off the ice.  Then he would beat you with his better players and a short bench.   He had many more thugs than the ones you mention (Moose DuPont, Bob Kelly, Ed Van Impe, etc).   He had a great PK and a great goalie   - both essential to his success   

The Sabres you mention we’re not regulars on that Cup team. Deziel never played a game that season, Titanic played 17 as a fourth liner, Gratton and Mickey each played 23 and their careers were essentially over.  

We had some scrappers like Schoeny, , Korab, Spencer, Gare, Carieere,and a young Fogolin.  Just not as many. 

I recall a home playoff game that started with a fight at center ice out Martin and Robert in the penalty box right off the bat.  Stuff that would not be allowed today.  

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Parent was ultimately the difference in the spring of 1975, but the deciding factor really was the fact that the dastardly Flyers had enough grinders to slow down the Connection just enough to allow Bernie to be dominant.

[PASabreFan]

The Sabres couldn't win in the Spectrum. Ever.

https://www.salmaiorana.com/single-post/Sabres-1977-end-Spectrum-jinx

[Doohickie]

So now we just sit and wait to see what JBot does.