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2019-20 Sabres Prospects

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10 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

everything you disagree with is a hot take that needs to take a break, and an overreaction and a flagrant lack of common sense and rabid, unhinged, misguided emotion. Triumph_communes versus the world 

Seriously, there exist rational takes that are at odds with yours, believe it or not 

Mitts' hands cannot

deke NHL players

create space for himself

create passing lanes for himself 

hang onto pucks in anything resembling tight quarters 

ergo, they're bad

This is not a declaration that they will forever be bad, of course, or that players can't develop. Just a disagreement with the idea that Mitts has skillz 

 

Superlatives don't make you right.  Neither does bad grammar and formatting.  This isn't slam poetry.

 

Connolly's hands didn't do those things, until magically they did.  It's a great analogy.  You can say 50/50 chance he isn't going to be a good forward and I think that is fair.  Still a 50% chance he comes out of his demotion with the confidence and body growth he needed.  It's the 'he's 100% bust' attitude where is my ROREEEEE???? that I am posting against.

 

Then again, I can understand your confusion.  Society has been pushing slam poetry as a debate form:

 

Edited by triumph_communes

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12 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

everything you disagree with is a hot take that needs to take a break, and an overreaction and a flagrant lack of common sense and rabid, unhinged, misguided emotion. Triumph_communes versus the world 

Seriously, there exist rational takes that are at odds with yours, believe it or not 

Mitts' hands cannot

deke NHL players

create space for himself

create passing lanes for himself 

hang onto pucks in anything resembling tight quarters 

ergo, they're bad

This is not a declaration that they will forever be bad, of course, or that players can't develop. Just a disagreement with the idea that Mitts has skillz 

 

That's his shtick. 

As to what you say, I think creating space for himself is a major problem. I am unsure if it is because he has bad hands, or because he doesn't process the game at the NHL pace. Either way he definitely needs to take a huge leap forward in development. 

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2 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

Superlatives don't make you right.  Neither does bad grammar and formatting.  This isn't slam poetry.

 

Connolly's hands didn't do those things, until magically they did.  It's a great analogy.  You can say 50/50 chance he isn't going to be a good forward and I think that is fair.  Still a 50% chance he comes out of his demotion with the confidence and body growth he needed.  It's the 'he's 100% bust' attitude where is my ROREEEEE???? that I am posting against.

Cool story.

You are talking about a player that had an entire year of college weight training and 2 full NHL offseasons of weight training to grow his body. I don't think his problem is he isn't strong enough. His probably revolves around not learning how to play the game at levels in-between HS and NHL. The result is he doesn't process the game quick enough or see the ice well enough or understand how to use his strength well enough to be an effective NHL forward. That's a reason he was bad in Rochester for the first little bit, even the AHL was above him. He needs another full AHL year IMPO. 

Edited by LGR4GM

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4 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Cool story.

You are talking about a player that had an entire year of college weight training and 2 full NHL offseasons of weight training to grow his body. I don't think his problem is he isn't strong enough. His probably revolves around not learning how to play the game at levels in-between HS and NHL. The result is he doesn't process the game quick enough or see the ice well enough or understand how to use his strength well enough to be an effective NHL forward. That's a reason he was bad in Rochester for the first little bit, even the AHL was above him. He needs another full AHL year IMPO. 

His confidence, the part you didn’t bold, addresses this.  I don’t think ‘processing the game quick enough’ was his problem. He was tired and outmatched physically and this killed his confidence on the puck. And without his confidence he isn’t much of a player. 
 

Maybe he needs another year, but I just don’t think he’s some guaranteed bust. I saw him turning his confidence around in the AHL as he understood how to play differently against peers who just weren’t physically drowning him out. 
 

He played with awful teammates dump and chase hockey in Minnesota. Was just a square peg round hole. I wouldn’t look too much into that. 

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I don't think Minnesota really developed his game that well. That is the primary problem with casey, he's a highschooler trying to play NHL hockey. 

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Just now, LGR4GM said:

I don't think Minnesota really developed his game that well. That is the primary problem with casey, he's a highschooler trying to play NHL hockey. 

That’s fair. Doesn’t mean he can’t figure it out. I think he’s in the rug  he situation to do so. The arrogance that Housley has that he could develop him himself was his downfall. 

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15 hours ago, dudacek said:

Serious question: would we need to protect Skinner?

Does he have a no-movement?

I guess it's irrelevant because he has the NMC, but if he didn't, it would depend on what his most recent season pre expansion draft looked like. 

For a thought experiment, if it was after this season, I'd say there was no chance in hell he'd be claimed. You don't pay 23 point players 9 million dollars. 

Skinner had *9* assists in 59 games. That's beyond brutal. 

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12 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

That’s fair. Doesn’t mean he can’t figure it out. I think he’s in the rug  he situation to do so. The arrogance that Botterill has that he could immediately replace ROR should have got Botterill sh*t canned.  

FTFY

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Oh man, Down Goes Brown is good.

Nailed the Sabres prospects list, here. Sorry, subscription only, but stuff like this is why I pay.

https://theathletic.com/1766712/2020/04/23/down-goes-brown-ranking-the-top-10-prospects-of-whichever-team-you-cheer-for/

Snippet: "Sometimes it just takes a little while longer, right? There’s no need to worry. Who’s panicking? Not you. Certainly not you."

(Spoiler: Cozens, Mittelstadt, Pekar, Johnson, Thompson, Luukkonnen, Ruotsalainen, Samuelsson, Worge-Kreu, Rousek. Well, sorta. ?)

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40 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Oh man, Down Goes Brown is good.

Nailed the Sabres prospects list, here. Sorry, subscription only, but stuff like this is why I pay.

https://theathletic.com/1766712/2020/04/23/down-goes-brown-ranking-the-top-10-prospects-of-whichever-team-you-cheer-for/

Snippet: "Sometimes it just takes a little while longer, right? There’s no need to worry. Who’s panicking? Not you. Certainly not you."

(Spoiler: Cozens, Mittelstadt, Pekar, Johnson, Thompson, Luukkonnen, Ruotsalainen, Samuelsson, Worge-Kreu, Rousek. Well, sorta. ?)

I feel personally attacked by this article 

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5 hours ago, dudacek said:

Oh man, Down Goes Brown is good.

Nailed the Sabres prospects list, here. Sorry, subscription only, but stuff like this is why I pay.

https://theathletic.com/1766712/2020/04/23/down-goes-brown-ranking-the-top-10-prospects-of-whichever-team-you-cheer-for/

Snippet: "Sometimes it just takes a little while longer, right? There’s no need to worry. Who’s panicking? Not you. Certainly not you."

(Spoiler: Cozens, Mittelstadt, Pekar, Johnson, Thompson, Luukkonnen, Ruotsalainen, Samuelsson, Worge-Kreu, Rousek. Well, sorta. ?)

This is a great article.   I agree on The Athletic.

5).  The guy who came over in a recent trade.  Hudson Fasching, for me.  


Oh man, you love this guy. Sure, it was sad to see a veteran head out the door. But you have to give something to get something and when that trade went down you got a prospect who’s going to be a big part of the future.

 

I’m still waiting for Juri Dudacek

Edited by Neo
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52 minutes ago, Neo said:

This is a great article.   I agree on The Athletic.

5).  The guy who came over in a recent trade.  Hudson Fasching, for me.  


Oh man, you love this guy. Sure, it was sad to see a veteran head out the door. But you have to give something to get something and when that trade went down you got a prospect who’s going to be a big part of the future.

I still like acquiring Fasching and Deslauriers.    But then reading the trade. It's like --- oh, Fasching and D-Lo. Cool, middle six and a 4th grinder. Who'd we give up? McNabb? Oh. Well, I guess they like some of the vets more. It seems early to move a young defenseman. But we've got McCabe and Ristolainen and Zadorov. We've got young D in the top rounds. We've got this. I like this trade! We got a steal. Suck it, LA! Oh? We gave up another player?

Parker? Jonathan Parker? Of ECHL/AHL --- yeah, sure. Sweet. And we moved a contract we had no interest in. ZFGMTM BEST GM EVER!

Oh -- there's more? We also sent a 2nd. Ok -- yeah, that balances it out. I guess we had to give a little more because McNabb was expendable from all those D picks. Hey, you know, maybe he won't pan out at all. Sure seems like a 2nd would get an established rental or a NHL starter though. Maybe we overpaid just a touch.

What? Another pick? Another 2nd? What the hell? Bad GMTM! Two 2nds, a D ready to make the NHL jump, (and, no ZF Parker!), and we got a 4th-round pick prospect and a 3rd-round pick 4W agitator? What in the ...

All this and I still liked Fasching. He drove to the net, he wasn't super fast but he skated hard and fast enough, he was good along the boards. I was hoping he'd pan out into that tough to play against 3/4 winger who maybe moves up to 2 for injuries but otherwise was really reliable and maybe would have one of those really good playoffs that someone totally overpays for the following offseason. But man... what a trade.

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4 hours ago, dudacek said:

Oh man, Down Goes Brown is good.

Nailed the Sabres prospects list, here. Sorry, subscription only, but stuff like this is why I pay.

https://theathletic.com/1766712/2020/04/23/down-goes-brown-ranking-the-top-10-prospects-of-whichever-team-you-cheer-for/

Snippet: "Sometimes it just takes a little while longer, right? There’s no need to worry. Who’s panicking? Not you. Certainly not you."

(Spoiler: Cozens, Mittelstadt, Pekar, Johnson, Thompson, Luukkonnen, Ruotsalainen, Samuelsson, Worge-Kreu, Rousek. Well, sorta. ?)

I thought most here thought Mitts and Thompson were no longer prospects. :)

1) 1st rd Pick - Cozens

2) Former 1st still developing - 33rd overall Asplund - since Mitts is no longer a prospect

3) Mid Round Sleeper - Pekar (sure), Laaksonen is the ultimate mid-round sleeper. 

4) The D - Johnson (31 overall)

5) Recent Trade  - Since Thompson is allegedly not a prospect, we don't have someone for this catagory

6) Goalie who has been around forever - Johansson.  

7) Guy stuck in the KHL.  We don't have a KHL prospect, but Davidsson, Laaksonen & Routsalainen are still in Europe, but since Routsalainen wasn't drafted, I'd slide him in here

8) The guy whose dad played in the NHL.  Samuelsson

9) Former Leafs pick- UPL we drafted with a pick from Minn.

10) Guy who isn't very good (is that like "Sir Not Appearing In This Film"?) - I'll go with Rousek.  Overager who some people talk up but will never play here

Honorable mention: College FA we have already soured on - Oglevie

 

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Tell me again about our forward depth.

 

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One would think that picking 5 forwards in the top 8 of the draft in the past 6 years might have taken care of that.

Or investing prominent assets in Girgensons, Larsson, Grigorenko, Compher, Hurley, Baptiste, Bailey, Carrier, Fasching, Lemieux, Cornel, Karabacek, Asplund, Davidsson, Thompson and Pu. 

Picking more forwards and picking good forwards are two different things.

Edited by dudacek

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1 minute ago, dudacek said:

One would think that picking 5 forwards in the top 8 of the draft in the past 6 years might have taking care of that.

Or investing prominent assets in Girgensons, Larsson, Grigorenko, Compher, Hurley, Baptiste, Bailey, Fasching, Lemieux, Cornel, Karabacek, Asplund, Davidsson, Thompson and Pu. 

Picking more forwards and picking good forwards are two different things.

Yep a serious fail in scouting and development.  2 4th liners, 2 players traded away and the rest a fail.  Only Thompson and Asplund still have a chance to be more then bottom 6 depth and that is speculative at this time.

22 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Tell me again about our forward depth.

 

Cozens, Mitts, Thompson, Asplund, Pekar, and Routsalainen look to have NHL futures.  The question is how many will ascend to top 6 NHL players.  IMHO only the 1st 2 are those kind of players long-term.

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47 minutes ago, dudacek said:

One would think that picking 5 forwards in the top 8 of the draft in the past 6 years might have taken care of that.

Or investing prominent assets in Girgensons, Larsson, Grigorenko, Compher, Hurley, Baptiste, Bailey, Carrier, Fasching, Lemieux, Cornel, Karabacek, Asplund, Davidsson, Thompson and Pu. 

Picking more forwards and picking good forwards are two different things.

This is what happens when you draft for floor. This is what happens when you don't use any sort of analytics in your drafting. This is what happens when you do some of the dumb things we have seen especially late in the first and early in the 2nd (yes I am still talking about Boeser and drafting Johnson). 

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1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Yep a serious fail in scouting and development. 

Since 2012, we've used (or squandered) the following draft capital on forwards:

2 Eichel: NHL star

2 Reinhart: 1st line NHLer

7 Cozens: unproven 1st line prospect

8 Mittelstadt: unproven 2nd line prospect

8 Nylander: unproven 2nd line prospect

12 Grigorenko: failed NHLer

14 Girgensons: bottom six NHLer

26 Thompson* (where Thompson was picked two years before we traded for him): unproven 2nd line prospect

31 Lemieux: bottom six NHLer

33 Asplund: unproven middle six prospect

35 Compher: middle six NHLer

37 Davidsson: unproven bottom six prospect

38 Hurley: utter bust

43 Fasching* (this is the better of the two 2nds we gave up in a complicated trade): minor leaguer

44 Cornel: minor leaguer

49 Karabacek: utter bust

52 Bailey: minor leaguer

56 Larsson* (where Larsson was picked two years before we traded for him): bottom six NHLer

57 Carrier* (where Carrier was picked the year before we traded for him): bottom six NHLer

 

 

We've invested 1st or 2nd round value in 19 forward prospects in and beyond the tank era. Seven have turned into NHL players, six still could, none have developed beyond their draft pedigree and would be considered "steals" where got them.

Edited by dudacek

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1 minute ago, dudacek said:

Since 2012, we've used (or squandered) the following draft capital on forwards:

2 Eichel: NHL star

2 Reinhart: 1st line NHLer

7 Cozens: unproven 1st line prospect

8 Mittelstadt: unproven 2nd line prospect

8 Nylander: unproven 2nd line prospect

12 Grigorenko: failed NHLer

14 Girgensons: bottom six NHLer

26 Thompson (where Thompson was picked two years before we traded for him): unproven 2nd line prospect

31 Lemieux: good bottom six NHLer

33 Asplund: unproven middle six prospect

35 Compher: middle six NHLer

37 Davidsson: unproven bottom six prospect

38 Hurley: utter bust

43 Fasching* (this is the better of the two 2nds we gave up in a complicated trade): minor leaguer

44 Cornel: minor leaguer

49 Karabacek: utter bust

52 Bailey: minor leaguer

56 Larsson (where Larsson was picked two years before we traded for him): bottom six NHLer

57 Carrier* (where Carrier was picked the year before we traded for him): bottom six NHLer

 

 

We've invested 1st or 2nd round value in 19 forward prospects in the tank era. Seven have turned into NHL players, six still could, none have developed beyond their draft pedigree and would be considered "steals" where got them.

...and just think if we had kept all of our 2015 picks.  We could have Colin White, Brock Boeser, Konency, Roslovic, Aho, Beauillier, or Carlo.  Take 3 of those guys and what a different team who would be.  Thanks G-d TM had to rush the rebuild.

32 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

This is what happens when you draft for floor. This is what happens when you don't use any sort of analytics in your drafting. This is what happens when you do some of the dumb things we have seen especially late in the first and early in the 2nd (yes I am still talking about Boeser and drafting Johnson). 

I thought you were a big proponent of BPA.

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3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

...and just think if we had kept all of our 2015 picks.  We could have Colin White, Brock Boeser, Konency, Roslovic, Aho, Beauillier, or Carlo.  Take 3 of those guys and what a different team who would be.  Thanks G-d TM had to rush the rebuild.

I thought you were a big proponent of BPA.

If you think Johnson was the BPA, I have a condo in Florida to sell you. 

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19 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

If you think Johnson was the BPA, I have a condo in Florida to sell you. 

Not your BPA or mine, but you have no idea what their list looked like.  When I did my collective list from 14 different analysts Johnson had an end of the 1st rd grade.  

Edited by GASabresIUFAN

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On 4/24/2020 at 10:15 AM, GASabresIUFAN said:

...and just think if we had kept all of our 2015 picks.  We could have Colin White, Brock Boeser, Konency, Roslovic, Aho, Beauillier, or Carlo.  Take 3 of those guys and what a different team who would be.  Thanks G-d TM had to rush the rebuild.

I thought you were a big proponent of BPA.

No thanks, I'd rather have the mindset that landed us O'Reilly. And O'Reilly. Especially considering the draft is a craps shoot and there's no telling who we'd have selected with the 2 extra late firsts. 

Edited by Thorny

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