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Eleven

The Pegula Qualification Thread.

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1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

We need an insider to come forward and give the details 

Because I feel like that's a pretty make-or-break thing right? If he's telling them not to trade for xxx, that's horrifying. If he is just like "I like that guy but you're in charge" then we're okay. 

There are a surprising amount of people who defend JB's ROR trade by saying it was Pegula's decision to make the move, and don't appear to be concerned by that thought. 

Edited by Thorny
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1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

We need an insider to come forward and give the details 

Because I feel like that's a pretty make-or-break thing right? If he's telling them not to trade for xxx, that's horrifying - counting his opinion as one of the several relevant ones. If he is just like "I like that guy but you're in charge" then we're okay. 

It's probably not that cut and dry. But Terry has hired two GMs and they've both been relatively young first-timers. Murray said not long after being hired that his uncle told him, "Everyone has a boss." When the owner gets involved in the process of player evaluation, whether your own or someone else's or prospects, those are risky waters for the GM.

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Just now, Thorny said:

There are a surprising amount of people who defend JB's ROR trade by saying it was Pegula's decision to make the move, and don't appear to be concerned by that.

That seems like it will forever be a mystery. I've always wondered if TPegs was put off by the Tim Hortons thing, and then over the edge by those dreaded few April words, but then again Jason was shopping him at the deadline according to PH (thank god those initials aren't ambiguous anymore). Ultimately, the information we do have available tells an unambiguous story in itself.

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5 hours ago, Claude_Verret said:

A guy made a ***** ton of coin and bought two professional sports teams. He can and will run them however he pleases. Bitching about it will matter zero and change nothing.

Still I'm sure the crusade will march on....

Absolutely correct and absolutely.

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I agree with Claude, but I don't have the resentment towards PA for always asking these questions, because the things he mention are alarm bells to me and would indicate something problematic, and probably help explain why the team that finished last in the McEichel draft has the fewest wins of any other since they made the pick.

 

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4 hours ago, LTS said:

Arrogance would be buying the team and not having hockey advisors help you on hiring and operating the team and going out and doing it all yourself.  That hasn't happened.

I think we've veered toward this scenario since the days of Black, Sawyer, Patrick, Battista et al. All those guys are gone. Terry said he didn't play a big role in hiring GMTM. He was the last man standing when it came time to hire Botterill, and he totally owns the hire. Who else can be blamed if it was a bad hire? Russ? Kim? Someone in the league office? Terry was asked if he needed to hire a hockey president to oversee Jason, and he said no, Jason's smart — as well as the only living person to win three gold medals in the World Juniors.

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5 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I think we've veered toward this scenario since the days of Black, Sawyer, Patrick, Battista et al. All those guys are gone. Terry said he didn't play a big role in hiring GMTM. He was the last man standing when it came time to hire Botterill, and he totally owns the hire. Who else can be blamed if it was a bad hire? Russ? Kim? Someone in the league office? Terry was asked if he needed to hire a hockey president to oversee Jason, and he said no, [ b] Jason's smart — as well as the only living person to win three gold medals in the World Juniors.[/b]

Is the "living" qualifier really necessary there?  Was there a dead person (or persons) that did that as well?  Personally, that seems to be a far more impressive achievement than winning 3 while still alive. Johnny croaked in '87 and then went on to win the WJC's in '89, '90, & yet again in '92 during his last year of eligibility.

Not THATS impressive.

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1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

I think we've veered toward this scenario since the days of Black, Sawyer, Patrick, Battista et al. All those guys are gone. Terry said he didn't play a big role in hiring GMTM. He was the last man standing when it came time to hire Botterill, and he totally owns the hire. Who else can be blamed if it was a bad hire? Russ? Kim? Someone in the league office? Terry was asked if he needed to hire a hockey president to oversee Jason, and he said no, Jason's smart — as well as the only living person to win three gold medals in the World Juniors.

Which, building off my first post on the subject, is what I said.  Originally, he brought in advisers and those of us who were around then can recall the discussion of whose agenda was being followed.  They are all gone now and I do agree that Botterill is 100% a Pegula hire.  And, if Botterill turns the team around it will demonstrate that the early years were rough, he listened to the wrong people, and eventually learned enough along the way to get the right guy.  Or, it could still be the wrong guy.  

I don't care what Terry says or how he says it to be honest.  If he wants to talk about his 3 gold medals, then so be it.  I care about Botterill hmself.  He had all the qualifications and had spent a long time in a successful program helping to build it.  I don't Botterill is inexperienced.  He might not have been THE GM, but he was part of the general management team.  He has a team now as well to help support him.

I don't think the Sabres have given him long enough to build things out.  This year is critically important to how much more rope he'll be given.

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1 hour ago, Claude_Verret said:

Thanks for at least finally admitting it's a crusade. 

I don't mind "crusade." "Narrative" and "agenda" I do.

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14 hours ago, Taro T said:

Is the "living" qualifier really necessary there?  Was there a dead person (or persons) that did that as well?  Personally, that seems to be a far more impressive achievement than winning 3 while still alive. Johnny croaked in '87 and then went on to win the WJC's in '89, '90, & yet again in '92 during his last year of eligibility.

Not THATS impressive.

Dunno. But Bernie Parent passed in 1973. The 1975 final was the basis for the movie. #ifimlyinimdyin

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14 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

I'll never agree with the idea that having the money to purchase some entity makes you qualified to run it. Entitled, yes. Maybe I'll buy Southwest someday and try my hand at more efficiently scheduling the flights in advance of a blizzard.

Distinguishing between entitled and qualified is fair.

My point is really along the lines of “whaddayagonnado?” Almost like, in life, you don’t have to be qualified if you’re entitled.

And hey - we’re back to my assessing life as it is (a posteriori) and your assessing life as it should be (a priori). The return of PAngloss!

Also, your Southwest airlines analogy is too granular. More apt would be Terry sharpening skates or some such. 

Come to think of it .....

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Is there some kind of pro sports team owner minor leagues that Robert Kraft and George Steinbrenner attended to learn the ropes? Uber rich people buy sports teams, the vast majority of which earned their fortunes in some other discipline. I don't get the hand wringing. 

Edited by Claude_Verret
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1 hour ago, Claude_Verret said:

Is there some kind of pro sports team owner minor leagues that Robert Kraft and George Steinbrenner attended to learn the ropes? Uber rich people buy sports teams, the vast majority of which earned their fortunes in some other discipline. I don't get the hand wringing. 

One of the things on my SS bucket list is to extensively study the rest of the NHL owners to see how they do it, to see if Terry is truly an outlier. I'm probably too lazy to do it. But I could start with Blues' owner Tom Stillman.

The first thing that popped up is a fan blog that understandably showers praise on him.

Quote

We have seen the worst of things. Stan Kroenke will only put as much effort into his teams so that they turn a profit. He could not care less about anything else. We have seen owners that meddle too much, such as Jerry Jones of the Dallas Cowboys.

Stillman fits right in the middle. You see him at all the games, clearly invested in the actual team and results. However, you don’t see him dipping his fingers into it, leaving the team decisions to those in charge of the team such as Doug Armstrong.

https://bleedinblue.com/2019/03/29/st-louis-blues-owner-tom-stillman-great-team/

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The Pegulas saved Buffalo's 2 major sports franchises from leaving this area for good. How ungrateful and utterly stupid to be asking this question in any context! 

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17 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

I'll never agree with the idea that having the money to purchase some entity makes you qualified to run it. Entitled, yes. Maybe I'll buy Southwest someday and try my hand at more efficiently scheduling the flights in advance of a blizzard.

 

The CEO of Southwest has no input into scheduling routes.  He was people with intimate subject matter knowledge do that.  Just as Terry should not be scouting players and making trades  (I don’t think he is and sure hope he is not)  

It depends on how the duties of “running the team” really are defined. Terry has vast business experience to set up the organizational chain of command and make a strategic plan and a financial plan.  Just as Golisano, Rigas and Knox did - yet none  if these past owners were qualified to run the hockey operations, they hired others to do so.  CEOs run corporations at the strategic level with only basic top level Technical and operational knowledge on how to build the product or perform the services of their company.    

We can all agree that the Tactical part of running the team is best left to “hockey people “.   The Structure of the organization, the reporting lines, communication flow, shared vision and goals, financial plan -  this all needs to be handled at the top.  After that you must have a hockey person to run the show, whether it is a VP of Hockey Operations or a GM.  This is where Terry and Kim struggle.   They simply have made bad choices and trusted the wrong people.  

First they did not know how hard and complex  this is.  The “drill another well” comment was part innocence and part arrogance on Terry's part.  Look at all the salaries he is paying to coaches, GMs, and players that are no longer employed.  It is a staggering amount.  He willingness to do this has lead to too much change and a dysfunctional organization.  Now, if Terry really did want ROR out before the bonus was due it had to be out of the frustration of paying out more dead money.   

Terry and Kim need to find great people to run the hockey and football operations and let them do their jobs  They are just as qualified to do this  as most any other sports team owner.  I think their gaffes have been in trusting the wrong people (Darcy,  Ted Black, La Fontaine, Murray, Russ Brandon, Rex, etc   ).  Our hope is that they find the experts and step to the side.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

The CEO of Southwest has no input into scheduling routes.

Exactly.

Quote

It depends on how the duties of “running the team” really are defined. Terry has vast business experience to set up the organizational chain of command and make a strategic plan and a financial plan.  Just as Golisano, Rigas and Knox did - yet none  if these past owners were qualified to run the hockey operations, they hired others to do so.  CEOs run corporations at the strategic level with only basic top level Technical and operational knowledge on how to build the product or perform the services of their company.

I'd argue that his business experience has little to no relevance in the hockey world, the competitive side of it, I mean. You're arguing more for Terry doing Kim's job. I'd also argue the owner shouldn't be setting the strategic goals either — beyond the obvious: go win the Cup. The way I see it, Terry has forced three strategies onto the franchise since taking over. 1. "Take the chains off" Darcy and try to buy success. 2. Tank for elite level talent. 3. Take the one or two good pieces the tank produced and add more young talent to them through trades and especially the draft. 1. and 2. clearly failed. 3. is too early to tell, but it's not off to a good start. I guess I just want a hockey guy making those big calls. I don't think it makes me kooky.

Edited by PASabreFan

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34 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Exactly.

I'd argue that his business experience has little to no relevance in the hockey world, the competitive side of it, I mean. You're arguing more for Terry doing Kim's job. I'd also argue the owner shouldn't be setting the strategic goals either — beyond the obvious: go win the Cup. The way I see it, Terry has forced three strategies onto the franchise since taking over. 1. "Take the chains off" Darcy and try to buy success. 2. Tank for elite level talent. 3. Take the one or tmIwo good pieces the tank produced and add more young talent to them through trades and especially the draft. 1. and 2. clearly failed. 3. is too early to tell, but it's not off to a good start. I guess I just want a hockey guy making those big calls. I don't think it makes me kooky.

We're assuming Pegula is making hockey decisions. Maybe he's just made bad management hiring decisions.

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3 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Exactly.

I'd argue that his business experience has little to no relevance in the hockey world, the competitive side of it, I mean. You're arguing more for Terry doing Kim's job. I'd also argue the owner shouldn't be setting the strategic goals either — beyond the obvious: go win the Cup. The way I see it, Terry has forced three strategies onto the franchise since taking over. 1. "Take the chains off" Darcy and try to buy success. 2. Tank for elite level talent. 3. Take the one or two good pieces the tank produced and add more young talent to them through trades and especially the draft. 1. and 2. clearly failed. 3. is too early to tell, but it's not off to a good start. I guess I just want a hockey guy making those big calls. I don't think it makes me kooky.

Agree that his business experience has little relevance to the hockey world, it is not uncommon for some CEOs to come into the job with corporate experience and little tactical experience running that particular business.   Especially sports team which tend to be owned by people who made their fortunes elsewhere.  So at least Terry has ground up experience building a business.  

Terry owns PSE, a bigger entity than the Sabres, and that is where he should be setting the organization and the high level goals for  each component of PSE.  Yes, for the Sabres his goal can be as simple as make playoffs by 2020, win Cup by 2022.  I’m betting there  are financial performance goals too.  Then it’s up to the VP and/or GM to layer in the real strategy to get there.  

So when I hear  he is “not qualified” to own a team I have to disagree, but I definitely do believe he is not qualified to run the hockey operations side of the team.   I would hope he and Kim agrees with the later.  

I remember Rene Robert questioning Larry Quinn on his qualifications to run the  Sabres, and  he was spot on.  

 

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I was a lurker of these boards since before the Pegula's bought the team. I read as PA would post his skepticism on their ownership over the years before I joined to talk what little I knew about NHL hockey in general.

I have to say, I am now firmly with PA's early days assessment of the Pegula's, they are amongst the worst owners in the league. And that decision didn't come immediately, it was solidified in the past 2 seasons.

Under the Pegula's ownership, since 2011, the Buffalo Sabres have been if not the worst, one of the bottom 3 worst teams in the league. And not just in the win/loss column mind you, but decision making at every level. They are completely without a winning leadership.

I have no hope in Botterill, no hope in his new coach hire, and no hope for what talent there is on the team, which, lets face it, isn't much.

Since the Pegula's have taken over, this NHL organization is one of the historically worst in the modern NHL era. I firmly believe it would be in the interest of the Buffalo Sabres Club, it's fans and the larger NHL fan base if they were to sell and move along. The product has been that bad, just...…………….that bad.

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