Ralph Krueger to meet the Media Wednesday June 5th 10am

[TrueBlueGED]

12 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Why tho?  They can clearly see where they are.   

I dunno. Maybe GPS would help Risto locate his man in the defensive zone. 

2 minutes ago, darksabre said:

The player and puck tracking stuff was featured in the All Star Game this year and I thought it worked really well.

I've often felt that the future of analyzing hockey is figuring out how players move around the ice and tracking scoring event sequences. Being able to use tracking data to model game situations for coaching purposes is going to be a lot more useful than watching tape.

It's also going to be a useful tool for player evaluation for contract purposes. If you can model how players interact then it'll be much easier to tell if a player's success is self-driven or dependent on teammates.

I'm really looking forward to seeing what the smart people can do with the forthcoming tracking data. So much potential. 

[LGR4GM]

1 minute ago, TrueBlueGED said:

I dunno. Maybe GPS would help Risto locate his man in the defensive zone. 

Maybe it would help him not suck at exiting the zone. 

also I laughed and then I cried at your post:

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, darksabre said:

The player and puck tracking stuff was featured in the All Star Game this year and I thought it worked really well.

I've often felt that the future of analyzing hockey is figuring out how players move around the ice and tracking scoring event sequences. Being able to use tracking data to model game situations for coaching purposes is going to be a lot more useful than watching tape.

It's also going to be a useful tool for player evaluation for contract purposes. If you can model how players interact then it'll be much easier to tell if a player's success is self-driven or dependent on teammates.

This is currently not allowed. The Players Union is against it being used for this purpose. 

[steveoath]

GPS is used extensively in international rugby. Teams can see when players are getting tired, or not working hard enough and adapt the lineup accordingly. Of course, try need to have a "base" of data for comparison for each player.

[darksabre]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Maybe it would help him not suck at exiting the zone. 

also I laughed and then I cried at your post:

 

 

 

This is currently not allowed. The Players Union is against it being used for this purpose. 

Good for them. How are they going to stop it?

[pi2000]

18 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

He specifically mentioned speed, positioning, and fatigue. 

Why wouldn't you want to track this? Your response is odd to me. 

You don't need gps to tell you if a player is getting tired.  Shifts are 30-45s for a reason.   If you're tired after 20s due to a hard back check and battle, then you change early if given the opportunity.  

Using a tracking device to tell you what you can already see seems unnecessary.  Analysis paralysis.

They should focusing their time and effort on improving game play.

[Zamboni]

2 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

You don't need gps to tell you if a player is getting tired.  Shifts are 30-45s for a reason.   If you're tired after 20s due to a hard back check and battle, then you change early if given the opportunity.  

Using a tracking device to tell you what you can already see seems unnecessary.  Analysis paralysis.

They should focusing their time and effort on improving game play.

 This post reads like a “I don’t understand it so I’m going to put it down” type of post.

[dudacek]

12 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

You don't need gps to tell you if a player is getting tired.  Shifts are 30-45s for a reason.   If you're tired after 20s due to a hard back check and battle, then you change early if given the opportunity.  

Using a tracking device to tell you what you can already see seems unnecessary.  Analysis paralysis.

They should focusing their time and effort on improving game play.

He specifically said he was not interested in paralysis by analysis.

Pretty sure this is what he was talking about when he mentioning using the info but not necessarily burdening the players with it.

Montour may have skated 1500 metres on the same 30-second shift Reinhart skated 800 metres.

Sheary may start tiring after 30 seconds where, Risto may start tiring after 50, etc.

Edited June 5, 2019 by dudacek

[WildCard]

Kruger on the Instigators 

Edit: This is like 2 weeks old, but just in case someone besides me hadn't heard it yet

https://www.nhl.com/sabres/video/ralph-krueger-on-the-instigators/c-68226703

Edited June 5, 2019 by WildCard

[CallawaySabres]

Just make it so this team does not suck anymore, ok?

[Derrico]

30 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

This I think is a lot of what Kruger is currently thinking about

 

Yep agreed.  This also goes with the narrative I've heard that the English Premiere League uses this kind of technology at an advanced level.  I've also heard some rumblings from past management (including Botts) who praised the Sabres analytics department.

I was unsure of the hire at first but I'm getting on board.  He seems like a natural leader and maybe a great fit for the organization today.  This young teams needs a true leader personality as a coach and someone that can effectively maximize the analytic department that is already established.  He checks both boxes in spades.  Let's surround him with some assistants that thrive with x's and o's and this could turn into something special.  I've been fooled before so I'll wait for actual results but as of June 5th let's go!

[nfreeman]

14 minutes ago, CallawaySabres said:

Just make it so this team does not suck anymore, ok?

#blueprint.

[pi2000]

32 minutes ago, dudacek said:

He specifically said he was not interested in paralysis by analysis.

Pretty sure this is what he was talking about when he mentioning using the info but not necessarily burdening the players with it.

Montour may have skated 1500 metres on the same 30-second shift Reinhart skated 800 metres.

Sheary may start tiring after 30 seconds where, Risto may start tiring after 50, etc.

You don't need a tracking device for that.  This isn't peewee hockey where the coach is calling for line changes.  The players manage their own changes, the coach just calls out who's next.

The only possible benefit I could see is for managing player usage later in the season?  Maybe giving a guy a game off or two to recover if his fatigue level is high... but even that can be determined just by talking with the player.

[dudacek]

Because the players always communicate honestly with the coaches and always do what they are told.

He said he was interested in information and deciding how it can be useful, but not interested in being governed by it.

Something, something molehills..

[LGR4GM]

6 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

You don't need a tracking device for that.  This isn't peewee hockey where the coach is calling for line changes.  The players manage their own changes, the coach just calls out who's next.

The only possible benefit I could see is for managing player usage later in the season?  Maybe giving a guy a game off or two to recover if his fatigue level is high... but even that can be determined just by talking with the player.

It is so weird that you are this against getting more data/info for the coaches. Why are you? What's your motive? 

[pi2000]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Because the players always communicate honestly with the coaches and always do what they are told.

He said he was interested in information and deciding how it can be useful, but not interested in being governed by it.

Something, something molehills..

Its not a big deal .. just would rather hear him focus on how he's going to clean up the dzone play... But I understand that wasn't the question he was asked.

[pi2000]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

It is so weird that you are this against getting more data/info for the coaches. Why are you? What's your motive? 

Because a gps device isn't going to help fix what's wrong with this team.  I'd rather they focused 100% on fixing what's broken.  It's an unnecessary distraction.

[WildCard]

3 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Its not a big deal .. just would rather hear him focus on how he's going to clean up the dzone play... But I understand that wasn't the question he was asked.

I'm not sure what kind of answer you would expect from him for this. He's not going to whip out a white board and explain it in specifics, and any other answer he could possibly provide for this would be unbelievably generic anyways.

He might as well say 'Cycle the puck and get pucks on net' when asked how we can improve our offense

Just now, pi2000 said:

Because a gps device isn't going to help fix what's wrong with this team.  I'd rather they focused 100% on fixing what's broken.  It's an unnecessary distraction.

You have no idea if this is true or not. You don't even know what it is/does

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

I've often felt that the future of analyzing hockey is figuring out how players move around the ice and tracking scoring event sequences. Being able to use tracking data to model game situations for coaching purposes is going to be a lot more useful than watching tape.

It's also going to be a useful tool for player evaluation for contract purposes. If you can model how players interact then it'll be much easier to tell if a player's success is self-driven or dependent on teammates.

I think it may take some time to sort the data into useful information though.  We know Skinner skates all over the place, but is that good?  We know Sabotka doesn't skate as much, but is that bad?  Would it make sense to come up with schemes that actually limit the "running around" that players like Skinner do, so they can sustain their performance over the whole game and not get tired?  Or can they direct a player like Sobotka to not skate hard all the time, but instead provide criteria for him on when he should skate hard?  In other words, can they look at the tracks of players on successful plays and determine how to apply the data from those tracks to turn losing plays into successful plays?  It isn't just how much a player skates, it's what effect they have on the game.

[pi2000]

1 minute ago, WildCard said:

I'm not sure what kind of answer you would expect from him for this. He's not going to whip out a white board and explain it in specifics, and any other answer he could possibly provide for this would be unbelievably generic anyways.

He might as well say 'Cycle the puck and get pucks on net' when asked how we can improve our offense

You have no idea if this is true or not. You don't even know what it is/does

I know what it does.  Player tracking, how far they skate, a history of their on ice positioning, their speed and acceleration, etc etc.... all things a good coach can see with his own eyes.

[WildCard]

Just now, pi2000 said:

I know what it does.  Player tracking, how far they skate, a history of their on ice positioning, their speed and acceleration, etc etc.... all things a good coach can see with his own eyes.

See and not remember as well in detail later. Coaches can see shots, pinches, scoring chances, saves with their own eyes too, and not remember exactly what lead to it, the impact of it, or who was on the ice for it later on too. 

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

I know what it does.  Player tracking, how far they skate, a history of their on ice positioning, their speed and acceleration, etc etc.... all things a good coach can see with his own eyes.

Except now a coach can see it, check it, and if needed show a player a heat map or sped animation of where they hang out on the ice. It has so many applications but you keep going back to this. My only conclusion is that you are already building a case for why Kruger is a bad coach. 

3 minutes ago, WildCard said:

See and not remember as well in detail later. Coaches can see shots, pinches, scoring chances, saves with their own eyes too, and not remember exactly what lead to it, the impact of it, or who was on the ice for it later on too. 

That too. Also what if a coach misses something or wants to double check. They can look at video and the tracking data. 

[Doohickie]

58 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

You don't need gps to tell you if a player is getting tired.  Shifts are 30-45s for a reason.   If you're tired after 20s due to a hard back check and battle, then you change early if given the opportunity.  

Using a tracking device to tell you what you can already see seems unnecessary.  Analysis paralysis.

They should focusing their time and effort on improving game play.

I understand your point, but there may be analytics that are not readily apparent from an eyeball test.  You might see a defenseman that looks like he dog it, all shift, every shift, but discover that 10% of the time he's going flat out to prevent scoring opportunities against, and the fact that he's not skating hard for most of the shift is why he is able to make the stellar defensive plays.

Study the most effective players at each position and see if there is a correlation in their activity levels each shift.  You might find that the best players aren't skating hard all the time but know when to turn it on and off.  Right now there's just an eye test to try to assess that.  It will be great to have data to analyze to see if there are things beyond what the eyes see that determine overall player effectiveness.

Looking at baseball, for instance, one of the things I've seen tracked is an outfielder's approach to catching a hit ball.  You might have a player that has faster all-out speed, but if he doesn't use efficient routes to the ball he won't catch as many fly balls as a slower player that reads the bat off the ball better and takes a more direct path to the catch.  There are all kinds of scenarios like that in hockey that are not currently being monitored.

[pi2000]

3 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

I think it may take some time to sort the data into useful information though.  We know Skinner skates all over the place, but is that good?  We know Sabotka doesn't skate as much, but is that bad?  Would it make sense to come up with schemes that actually limit the "running around" that players like Skinner do, so they can sustain their performance over the whole game and not get tired?  Or can they direct a player like Sobotka to not skate hard all the time, but instead provide criteria for him on when he should skate hard?  In other words, can they look at the tracks of players on successful plays and determine how to apply the data from those tracks to turn losing plays into successful plays?  It isn't just how much a player skates, it's what effect they have on the game.

Prime example of analysis paralysis.  Coaches will get stuck pouring over mountains of empirical data instead of teaching the game.

[WildCard]

1 minute ago, pi2000 said:

Prime example of analysis paralysis.  Coaches will get stuck pouring over mountains of empirical data instead of teaching the game.

Did you watch his presser though? He very clearly said this is exactly what he won't do

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, pi2000 said:

Prime example of analysis paralysis.  Coaches will get stuck pouring over mountains of empirical data instead of teaching the game.

Doesn't sound like Kruger and how he talks about it at all. Sounds like Bylsma, king of the whiteboards.