The ROR trade sucked thread

[LGR4GM]

11 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

The O'Reilly trade was definitely worse but both trades are cut from the same cloth because in both trades we gave up the best player for a bunch of middling or bad pieces (The Botterill Special). The fact that Botterill held his ground because he let it leak out earlier that he wanted 4 pieces including a first in the deal and he was hell bent on holding to that price while the clock was ticking ultimately resulted in having to take the best deal he could get before the deadline hit, but that doesn't mean it had to go that way.

Without requiring a first maybe we would have gotten a better prospect than Danny O'Regan. Or maybe once he determined that either he didn't want Kane or that Kane had no interest in staying here he could have traded him before the season started. It's logical to assume a full season of Kane would have been worth more than 17 games of Kane.

If you think trading 17 games of Kane for a 1st round pick was bad, idk what to tell you. 

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Why does everyone regularly seem to forget the 2nd in the O’Reilly deal?

And how does the Skinner trade fit with the idea of “the Botterill special”? Didn’t he get more for 17 games of Kane than he gave up for 82 games of Skinner?

 

It doesn't fit that is why they don't bring it up. 

The ROR trade was trash. We have easily established that. Is Botterill trash is a much harder conclusion to draw considering. 

[LGR4GM]

All I am saying is I would like a little more data from Botterill before I declare him the biggest trade idiot ever.

[darksabre]

The thing people don't seem to understand about O'Reilly is that he's a human mood ring. He takes on the personality of the people around him and presents it as his own.

I know he gets praised for his leadership but it's not really a thing. The Blues already had leadership before he got there. Remember when he was moping with the rest of the team when they were at the bottom of the league?

If you want to know what kind of shape the rest of your team is in then take a look at O'Reilly and see how he's doing. 

[Drunkard]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Why does everyone regularly seem to forget the 2nd in the O’Reilly deal?

And how does the Skinner trade fit with the idea of “the Botterill special”? Didn’t he get more for 17 games of Kane than he gave up for 82 games of Skinner?

 

My bad. I considered the 2nd to be one of the middling pieces. I have no problems with the Skinner trade and I actually liked the Sheary trade as well even though he didn't produce as well as I had hoped (I thought he'd play in top 6 consistently and score 40+ points but it was still a good move).

Kane had zero trade protections though (same with O'Reilly) while Skinner had a full no trade clause so the situations are different. Botterill could have traded Kane at any time including before the season started but he chose to play the long game in order to try to squeeze his 4 pieces price out of someone before time ran out on him. Skinner had full control over if/when he would get moved and due to geography he basically said trade me to Toronto or Buffalo or I will stay in Carolina for the duration of my contract. Toronto had zero cap space after backing up the Brinks truck for Tavares and knowing that Matthews and Marner needed new deals so the Carolina GM only had 2 choices. Trade him to Buffalo for something or keep him and watch him walk at the end of the season for nothing. I think that makes Botterill more fortunate than shrewd but he definitely won the trade.

The whole Botterill special is probably over the top because (so far) I think only the Kane and O'Reilly deals fit this mold (with the O'Reilly being admittedly much worse in severity) while most of his other trades including the Skinner, Sheary, and Pominville have been completely different but I have a bad feeling that he's going to revert back and try to do the same thing with Ristolainen. Instead of building a defense that can put Ristolainen into an offensive oriented role, he's going to trade him for a basket of lesser pieces and cap dumps.

I could totally see the Botterill special resulting in us trading Ristolainen to Tampa for:

Miller (mediocre center to try to fix his O'Reilly mistake)

Callahan (really a cap dump that many will try to spin as a valuable depth player like Berglund and Sobotka )

Late 1st (because it wouldn't be the Botterill special without a late first)

Some mediocre prospect who is their 5th or 6th best guy similar to Tage Thompson

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

My bad. I considered the 2nd to be one of the middling pieces. I have no problems with the Skinner trade and I actually liked the Sheary trade as well even though he didn't produce as well as I had hoped (I thought he'd play in top 6 consistently and score 40+ points but it was still a good move).

Kane had zero trade protections though (same with O'Reilly) while Skinner had a full no trade clause so the situations are different. Botterill could have traded Kane at any time including before the season started but he chose to play the long game in order to try to squeeze his 4 pieces price out of someone before time ran out on him. Skinner had full control over if/when he would get moved and due to geography he basically said trade me to Toronto or Buffalo or I will stay in Carolina for the duration of my contract. Toronto had zero cap space after backing up the Brinks truck for Tavares and knowing that Matthews and Marner needed new deals so the Carolina GM only had 2 choices. Trade him to Buffalo for something or keep him and watch him walk at the end of the season for nothing. I think that makes Botterill more fortunate than shrewd but he definitely won the trade.

The whole Botterill special is probably over the top because (so far) I think only the Kane and O'Reilly deals fit this mold (with the O'Reilly being admittedly much worse in severity) while most of his other trades including the Skinner, Sheary, and Pominville have been completely different but I have a bad feeling that he's going to revert back and try to do the same thing with Ristolainen. Instead of building a defense that can put Ristolainen into an offensive oriented role, he's going to trade him for a basket of lesser pieces and cap dumps.

I could totally see the Botterill special resulting in us trading Ristolainen to Tampa for:

Miller (mediocre center to try to fix his O'Reilly mistake)

Callahan (really a cap dump that many will try to spin as a valuable depth player like Berglund and Sobotka )

Late 1st (because it wouldn't be the Botterill special without a late first)

Some mediocre prospect who is their 5th or 6th best guy similar to Tage Thompson

This is a fair read and might become true.

[Drunkard]

11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This is a fair read and might become true.

I hope I'm just crazy/paranoid but that's my fear, mainly because I want to keep Ristolainen. He's not strong defensively but I think his metrics would look a lot better if they didn't keep him in over his head in the deep end of the pool for 20+ minutes every night. 40 point defenseman in their primes who manage to stay healthy don't grow on trees and it always seems harder to find guys for the right side. He's also on a solid contract.

If they could just get to the point where Dahlin and Montour carry more of the load defensively I think Ristolainen could thrive as more of an offensive specialist. They've basically been treating him like Shea Weber in his prime since he was a rookie though (through multiple GMs and even more coaches) and his track record has proven that he's simply outmatched for that type of role.

[Kruppstahl]

21 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

I hope I'm just crazy/paranoid but that's my fear, mainly because I want to keep Ristolainen. He's not strong defensively but I think his metrics would look a lot better if they didn't keep him in over his head in the deep end of the pool for 20+ minutes every night. 40 point defenseman in their primes who manage to stay healthy don't grow on trees and it always seems harder to find guys for the right side. He's also on a solid contract.

If they could just get to the point where Dahlin and Montour carry more of the load defensively I think Ristolainen could thrive as more of an offensive specialist. They've basically been treating him like Shea Weber in his prime since he was a rookie though (through multiple GMs and even more coaches) and his track record has proven that he's simply outmatched for that type of role.

Montour isn't much better than Risto defensively speaking.  The buzz surrounding him, among those who think he's something special, is totally focused on his skating and the offensive side of his game.

Dahlin will be "The Man" on the blue line eventually.  The question is how long will it take for him to get there.  Some have suggested he'll be ready in 2019/2020.  I think that's way early and look for him to "arrive" in full force in his 4th NHL season.

Risto is a 3rd pairing guy, at best.  

He's one of the few moveable assets on the team, however, and I would like to see him moved--even if he is practically the only guy on the team with a little snarl to his game.

I would go so far as to suggest I'll be surprised if he is not moved this off-season.

 

 

 

 

[LGR4GM]

9 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

Montour isn't much better than Risto defensively speaking.  The buzz surrounding him, among those who think he's something special, is totally focused on his skating and the offensive side of his game.

Dahlin will be "The Man" on the blue line eventually.  The question is how long will it take for him to get there.  Some have suggested he'll be ready in 2019/2020.  I think that's way early and look for him to "arrive" in full force in his 4th NHL season.

Risto is a 3rd pairing guy, at best.  

He's one of the few moveable assets on the team, however, and I would like to see him moved--even if he is practically the only guy on the team with a little snarl to his game.

I would go so far as to suggest I'll be surprised if he is not moved this off-season.

Dahlin is better than Ristolainen in basically every offensive metric and defensive metric this very moment. Not next year or in year four but now. 

[Drunkard]

4 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

Montour isn't much better than Risto defensively speaking.  The buzz surrounding him, among those who think he's something special, is totally focused on his skating and the offensive side of his game.

Dahlin will be "The Man" on the blue line eventually.  The question is how long will it take for him to get there.  Some have suggested he'll be ready in 2019/2020.  I think that's way early and look for him to "arrive" in full force in his 4th NHL season.

Risto is a 3rd pairing guy, at best.  

He's one of the few moveable assets on the team, however, and I would like to see him moved--even if he is practically the only guy on the team with a little snarl to his game.

I would go so far as to suggest I'll be surprised if he is not moved this off-season.

I agree on Dahlin. I'd rather not treat him like Ristolainen and throw him in the deep end before he's ready. Ristolainen would be amazing on the 3rd pair, especially if he still got power play time to produce offensively. I obviously value him more than you do and that's fine. I also hope we keep him because I'm curious to see how Krueger would slot him and whether he'd follow the same path of every other bozo who has coached this team since Lindy Ruff or if he's find a way to use him to his strengths. I guess we'll all find out what happens over the next few months.

[Drunkard]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Dahlin is better than Ristolainen in basically every offensive metric and defensive metric this very moment. Not next year or in year four but now. 

Do you think he and Montour can hold down the top pair this season? Based on the current roster that's how I'd slot them at this point, but I prefer not to rush him into top pairing duties. I just don't see who else we can put there.

[bob_sauve28]

I don't see how Botts can long survive in his job if he doesn't turn this ship around really quick. Especially if ROR is holding the Stanley Cup over his head in a few weeks. Another losing season should end his employment for us, I would imagine. 

[lost in dc]

Must we keep talking about ROR? Save it for when STL wins the cup.

[Thorny]

On 5/21/2019 at 9:42 PM, klos1963 said:

The trade was bad.

It shouldn't be a reflection on Botterill right now.  But it's a bad look.

I hope St Louis wins, ROR was my favorite Sabre.

Absolutely it should. It's a terrible looking trade, so it reflects terribly. If that late first turns into a good player, than the optics change. But as of now we traded an All-Star for a cap dump, Thompson, and a couple picks with a probable negligible NHL impact. 

So, as of right now, for nothing. 

On 5/21/2019 at 9:52 PM, jad1 said:

Let's not forget that Kane was also playing in the conference finals, and that trade sucked too.

If Botterill doesn't sign Skinner, he will have let almost 100 goals walk off the roster for practically nothing.

But he was able to snag that EPL guy to coach this mess, so great GM I guess.

 

Kane trade is fine. UFA for Montour is ok by me. 

[Thorny]

On 5/22/2019 at 8:56 AM, SDS said:

The higher level view of your summary is that we just don't know the real reasons (in part or in whole). The "JB is a big dummy" crowd has such a myopic, ill-informed take. The situation literally screams "more to the story", but that won't stop them from building their straw men.

Without knowing the reasons, we can only judge the trade on it's own merits, then. It doesn't look good on JB. 

Assuming these unknown reasons, this "more to the story" necessarily validates the trade, without even knowing what that is in certainty, is the biggest straw man of all. 

One in which I admittedly engaged in earlier on, to be fair. 

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Thorny

[Taro T]

On Friday, May 24, 2019 at 8:58 AM, hsif said:

Isn’t it possible that part of the “problem” with ROR was his inability to tolerate the mediocre effort by the most skilled player on the team? Coasting off the ice….. pouting behavior when things don’t go 9’s way.... Jack is exceptionally skilled, but I don’t think his effort on the ice is pedal to the floor all the time. We expected ROR to be a leader…. some personality types can’t be led by peers. When that person is the face of the franchise, it’s a problem. I don’t believe for a minute that ownership wanted ROR gone for off ice issues………. Ownership didn’t want him gone.

Rather than name names, and tear down, ROR used the “love of the game” statement.  He couldn’t lead this team…. Couldn’t lead the face of the franchise. Too much locker room drama, and he wanted out of that. Too little time in his career….. lemme out.

At this point, the franchise is undeniably tied to Jack. It’s no wonder that the Sabres new head coach is touted as a “premier” motivator and a unifying force in the locker room….. let’s hope so

This is just observation and speculation on my part….. Just MHO.

Said about Krueger……….

“I can’t say enough good things about him,” said European defenseman Christian Ehrhoff. “He is focused on keeping everyone’s confidence up and everybody’s head right, believing in yourself and the group. We’ve come together as a team.”

That may be the case.  But ownership/upper management made sure the trade happened before Terry's John Hancock appeared on a $7.5MM check.

So whether the decision to trade O'Reilly was Botterill's or not, the decision to send him packing for change on the $ appears to have been decided for him.

[Vladimir Ostenpovich III]

On 5/21/2019 at 7:23 PM, pi2000 said:

 

The BuffaBLOw Sabres SUCK the big Wazoo!  The worst team in NHL history!

On 5/21/2019 at 6:48 PM, LGR4GM said:

Idk why it's so hard to click start new thread but here...

The BuffaBlow Sabres suck the big Wazoo!

The ROR trade was bad. Do you think botterill is incompetent and do you feel worse if ROR wins the cup?

2

 

[OhMyDahlin]

It's crazy that some of you (Sabres fans) thought O'Reilly was overpaid at $7.5M...but you're cool with paying Skinner $9M+.

Botterill has screwed this team so bad.

I won't be surprised if Krueger takes over as GM and hires his own coach within 1-2 years.

[#freejame]

23 minutes ago, OhMyDahlin said:

It's crazy that some of you (Sabres fans) thought O'Reilly was overpaid at $7.5M...but you're cool with paying Skinner $9M+.

Botterill has screwed this team so bad.

I won't be surprised if Krueger takes over as GM and hires his own coach within 1-2 years.

I’m not sure it’s the same people holding those views, but if it’s the case I agree. 

[Thorny]

24 minutes ago, OhMyDahlin said:

It's crazy that some of you (Sabres fans) thought O'Reilly was overpaid at $7.5M...but you're cool with paying Skinner $9M+.

Botterill has screwed this team so bad.

I won't be surprised if Krueger takes over as GM and hires his own coach within 1-2 years.

We'll have to see what Skinner's number comes in at, but it certainly doesn't look like it'll be a "good" deal. Reinhart's bridge by all accounts looks poor. Eichel's contract seems to be Botterill's best shot so far at a "good" contract. 

I'm a little surprised at the early returns from someone who was heralded as a "cap specialist", but it's still early in that game. 

[Radar]

I loved the ROR trade. Best deal Sabres made in years. Just can't understand why anyone's upset.

[LGR4GM]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

We'll have to see what Skinner's number comes in at, but it certainly doesn't look like it'll be a "good" deal. Reinhart's bridge by all accounts looks poor. Eichel's contract seems to be Botterill's best shot so far at a "good" contract. 

I'm a little surprised at the early returns from someone who was heralded as a "cap specialist", but it's still early in that game. 

Lol ***** Reinhart's contract is poor. His next contract could be but I'd bet 0 people on this board projected Sam to 65 points. Many were pleased with the bridge and should be pleased Sam out played it and we have the potential to have another year of cheap Sam

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Lol ***** Reinhart's contract is poor. His next contract could be but I'd bet 0 people on this board projected Sam to 65 points. Many were pleased with the bridge and should be pleased Sam out played it and we have the potential to have another year of cheap Sam

What relevance does any of what the board thought have on Botterill missing the boat on Sam's deal? It's his job to get it right. 

Bridging him was a mistake. Botterill told Reinhart to "prove it" and he did. Reinhart bet on himself and won. 

Advantage - player. 

As a side note, 65 points certainly wasn't all-together unpredictable and I'd guess someone like @dudacek may have had him at a number like that. He had 50 the season previous. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

Just now, Thorny said:

What relevance does any of what the board thought have on Botterill missing the boat on Sam's deal? It's his job to get it right. 

He did. He got it exactly right. 

Sam was a 50pt player who needed to show more to get a better deal. They gave him a prove it deal and sure enough he's worked harder to prove. Motivation and the perfect player to bridge. 

[LGR4GM]

Laugh all you want but you're 100% wrong on this. 

What if you give Reinhart 8 years at 7 million. He stays around 50 points the entire deal. Or you can bridge him, motivate him a little more, and then give him an 8 year deal for 8.5. He's now a better player. You kept him for 10 years not 8, and you have a 65 point guy not a 50point. It's a win. 

You'd be judging botterill all to hell if sam dropped a 50pt year at ROR money. 

[Thorny]

8 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Laugh all you want but you're 100% wrong on this. 

What if you give Reinhart 8 years at 7 million. He stays around 50 points the entire deal. Or you can bridge him, motivate him a little more, and then give him an 8 year deal for 8.5. He's now a better player. You kept him for 10 years not 8, and you have a 65 point guy not a 50point. It's a win. 

You'd be judging botterill all to hell if sam dropped a 50pt year at ROR money. 

Reinhart wasn't getting 7 million coming off 50 points. 

We were looking at 5-6 million per as opposed to 7-8 now. 

Botterill missed. 

LOL at Botterill getting credit for turning Sam into the player he is by bridging him. Good grief. What a straw man. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Thorny