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bob_sauve28

Have We Seen The Last Of Zemgus?

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In a Sabres uniform? 

 

He seems like the classic case of needing a change of scenery. Though a new coach might just be what....or not! 

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15 minutes ago, bob_sauve28 said:

In a Sabres uniform? 

 

He seems like the classic case of needing a change of scenery. Though a new coach might just be what....or not! 

I predict a trade with the Blues

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1 hour ago, calti said:

I predict a trade with the Blues

Straight up for Ryan O'Reilly.

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42 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Straight up for Ryan O'Reilly.

The Blues would have to add

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2 hours ago, bob_sauve28 said:

In a Sabres uniform? 

 

He seems like the classic case of needing a change of scenery. Though a new coach might just be what....or not! 

In my mind, a classic change of scenery player is a talented player that for whatever reason isn't performing to expectation. I think Zemgus is performing exactly to his talent leave. Honestly, I have no problem with him on the fourth line other than he's been a big part of the losing identity. I suppose that could be explained as needing a change of scenery. 

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It's been sad to watch his game deteriorate down to nothing.  IMO he is a genuine example of a player being ruined by an organization.

 I used to think that was a myth, but with Zemgus it happened.

His trade value is close to nothing so it really doesn't matter.  He probably has more value in Buffalo, if the new coach can revitalize him somehow. 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Kruppstahl said:

It's been sad to watch his game deteriorate down to nothing.  IMO he is a genuine example of a player being ruined by an organization.

 I used to think that was a myth, but with Zemgus it happened.

His trade value is close to nothing so it really doesn't matter.  He probably has more value in Buffalo, if the new coach can revitalize him somehow. 

 

 

 

 

I just don't see it this way. He is a marginally talented player that was thrust into a top line role.  He is the face of the tank. Let's put our woefully unqualified bottom six skill type on the ice in all situations. What could go wrong?  Nothing. Because that strategy got Jack Eichel. 

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Really having a hard time seeing why people seem so gung ho to get rud of Girgensons & Larsson.  They are what they are; good 4th liners that excel on the pk.

Having them make up 2/3's of the 4th line hasn't been & isn't why they keep missing the playoffs.

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8 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Really having a hard time seeing why people seem so gung ho to get rud of Girgensons & Larsson.  They are what they are; good 4th liners that excel on the pk.

Having them make up 2/3's of the 4th line hasn't been & isn't why they keep missing the playoffs.

I think I believe this, as well.

I think.

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1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Really having a hard time seeing why people seem so gung ho to get rud of Girgensons & Larsson.  They are what they are; good 4th liners that excel on the pk.

Having them make up 2/3's of the 4th line hasn't been & isn't why they keep missing the playoffs.

I don’t want to get rid of them, I just don’t see space for them given the youth we want to move in, the contracts we have, and the talent we want to acquire:

Add a 2nd line centre and a middle six forward to Reinhart, Eichel, Skinner, Rodrigues, Sheary, Okposo, Wilson, and Sobotka and you have two spots available. Id rather give those spots to two of Mittelstadt, Thompson, Olofsson, Nylander and Smith than Zemgus and Johan.

Now I like the tank twins better than Sobotka and Wilson, but they aren’t a huge improvement and they aren’t  under contract like the other two are. To bring in two new forwards to upgrade up-front two guys have to go. Larry and Z are the most likely, IMO.

Edited by dudacek
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Sobotka fourth line center maybe, but id rather have Larry, Wilson can clear waivers and be an injury call up, Sobotka might too. The rest all except Nylander and I bet at least one of those young guys Nylander, CJ, or Thompson gets traded for a 2nd line center and say Wilson and a pick.  But who knows

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Unless he's thrown into a larger trade package I think he'll be on the roster in the fall. Mostly because I don't think he has any trade value (or very little) and JBot will give the new coach a chance to find a role for him. One last chance. 

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11 hours ago, dudacek said:

I don’t want to get rid of them, I just don’t see space for them given the youth we want to move in, the contracts we have, and the talent we want to acquire:

Add a 2nd line centre and a middle six forward to Reinhart, Eichel, Skinner, Rodrigues, Sheary, Okposo, Wilson, and Sobotka and you have two spots available. Id rather give those spots to two of Mittelstadt, Thompson, Olofsson, Nylander and Smith than Zemgus and Johan.

Now I like the tank twins better than Sobotka and Wilson, but they aren’t a huge improvement and they aren’t  under contract like the other two are. To bring in two new forwards to upgrade up-front two guys have to go. Larry and Z are the most likely, IMO.

Eichel, Okposo, Reinhart, Mittelstadt, Sheary, Sobotka, Wilson are under contract for next season, 7 forwards.

Then we have Skinner, Rodrigues, and one FA top-6 F who will hopefully be signed.  Brings the total to 10.

Then there is the group of Olofsson, Nylander, Thompson, Smith.  Probably 2 of the 4 will start in the NHL.  Brings you up to 12.

But NHL teams don’t carry just 12 forwards, they carry 13-14.  Resigning Larsson and Girgensons would bring it up to 14 forwards.  That would be fine.  Sobotka, Wilson and even Girgensons don’t need to play every game.  In addition to that, Sobotka and Wilson could both be waived and sent to the AHL if it suited the teams needs.

To make a long story short, there will be room for Girgensons as a 4th liner unless Buffalo plans on bringing in 3-4 new forwards via trade and UFA.  However, It’s also possible that he may not be back purely because management does not want him back and would prefer to bring in someone else to fill that role. 

Edited by Curtisp5286

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  • Girgensons was forced to play on lines in the past he's just not suited for. He's a solid fourth line guy though.
Edited by Radar

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I think there is space on this team for 3 of the following players...Girgensons, Wilson, ERod, Larsson, and Sobotka.  They would fill the left side and center of the fourth line.  I still have Okposo penciled in to the fourth line right wing.  The other three battle it out each and every practice and games to see who sticks. You can rotate them in on back to back games.  If a certain chemistry clicks with players then you ride that wave.

I personally would like to see  Wilson and Girgensons rotate on the left with ERod at center.

 

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I'm unclear on the expectations many of you have for your fourth line. The first half the season Housley used Girgensons against the other teams top lines, they were playing well because Zemgus, Berglund, and Larsson where playing the other teams top line even. Things changed after Berglund left, but how is that on Zemgus?

As far as scoring, this is the Sabres (minus the last 3 games, which I haven't yet downloaded) even strength points per 60, Girgenssons is 7th, (and Pominville doesn't count because almost all of his points come with Eichel, Nylander's not a regular, so you could argue he's 5th on the team in scoring.)

9 EICHEL 2.60 53

23 REINHART 2.29 47

53 SKINNER 2.17 44

29 POMINVILLE 2.05 27

43 SHEARY 1.72 27

92 NYLANDER 1.53 3

28 GIRGENSONS 1.34 17

71 RODRIGUES 1.33 20

41 OLOFSSON 1.23 1

21 OKPOSO 1.10 16

37 MITTELSTADT 1.10 15

62 MONTOUR 1.09 6

49 SMITH 1.07 2

20 WILSON 1.04 2

26 DAHLIN 0.95 22

22 LARSSON 0.94 13

82 BEAULIEU 0.92 6

55 RISTOLAINEN 0.90 22

4 BOGOSIAN 0.88 17

10 BERGLUND 0.88 4

72 THOMPSON 0.87 10

19 MCCABE 0.83 13

17 SOBOTKA 0.80 11

6 SCANDELLA 0.74 12

48 HUNWICK 0.61 2

8 NELSON 0.50 4

24 PILUT 0.48 4

81 ELIE 0.42 1

40 HUTTON 0.03 1

35 ULLMARK 0.00 0

5 TENNYSON 0.00 0

45 GUHLE 0.00 0

33 BORGEN 0.00 0

65 O'REGAN 0.00 0

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41 minutes ago, utsvävande said:

 

As far as scoring, this is the Sabres (minus the last 3 games, which I haven't yet downloaded) even strength points per 60, Girgenssons is 7th, (and Pominville doesn't count because almost all of his points come with Eichel, Nylander's not a regular, so you could argue he's 5th on the team in scoring.)

 

This really puts things into perspective.

I'm not a fan of moving on from players like Larsson, Girgensons, and Risto until we have players on the roster that are actually pushing them off.  Not hope toos, or some day, actually moving them to the press box now.  There is no addition by subtraction.

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12 hours ago, dudacek said:

I don’t want to get rid of them, I just don’t see space for them given the youth we want to move in, the contracts we have, and the talent we want to acquire:

Add a 2nd line centre and a middle six forward to Reinhart, Eichel, Skinner, Rodrigues, Sheary, Okposo, Wilson, and Sobotka and you have two spots available. Id rather give those spots to two of Mittelstadt, Thompson, Olofsson, Nylander and Smith than Zemgus and Johan.

Now I like the tank twins better than Sobotka and Wilson, but they aren’t a huge improvement and they aren’t  under contract like the other two are. To bring in two new forwards to upgrade up-front two guys have to go. Larry and Z are the most likely, IMO.

I see no reason to pencil Wilson nor Sobotka into the top 12.  Both can find themselves in Ra-cha-cha after getting beat out fair & square in TC.

That, right there opens up 2 slots for kids.

Can't see them dropping Okposo from the lineup (though there's merit to that choice for his on-ice production, would expect that his historically wearing an A keeps him pencilled in on that 4th line), so that's my 4th line - Girgensons- Larsson-Okposo.

I'd have Olofsson & 2 new guys pencilled in to the top 6, which makes the 3rd line Sheary-Mittelstadt-Rodrigues.  If they want to open up room for Thompson or Nylander, trade Sheary.

Could see them not trying to keep Larsson after next season to make room for Asplund, but right now Asplund hasn't outplayed him & can't see them just handing him that spot.

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I'm not eager to push Girgensons off the roster.  If you get him on a really low-cost contract and there is no-one CLEARLY better, then I'd like to see him stay. As others have said...if there is another option available that is clearly better then go that route (not 'might' be better, not 'hopefully' better).

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It is always interesting to see if/how players are used by, and respond to, a new coach.

I don’t fully buy the “Zemgus is what he always was” narrative.

Dude had 15 goals and 15 assists in 61 games as a 21-year-old. People say his stats were inflated because Nolan treated him like a number one centre. That might be true in terms of ice time, but let’s get serious; he didn’t pad his stats on the PP (4 points) or feasting on the scintillating one-on-one skills of Matt Moulson and Chris Stewart.

And he wasn’t sheltered either. He had the ROR role, frequently matched up against the other team’s top guys, yet finished -16 on one of the worst teams in the league. 

He’s got decent size and can skate. His hockey sense and passing skills are below average, but during that season at least, he showed the ability to hound the puck, force turnovers and he scored some exciting goals.

Bylsma shunted him aside and asked him to play a boring, safe game. To Housley he was strictly a role player. Last year, he got 15 per cent (!) O-zone starts.

He’ll never be the 20/20 top 3C I had envisioned during tank, but I can’t help but think he was horribly developed and there is (or at least was) more there than the replacement-level  7-goal 15-point spare part he’s become.

In the right situation, he could have been an effective 3rd line NHLer.

Krueger would have to be a miracle worker for us to see it in Buffalo.

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21 hours ago, Taro T said:

Really having a hard time seeing why people seem so gung ho to get rud of Girgensons & Larsson.  They are what they are; good 4th liners that excel on the pk.

Having them make up 2/3's of the 4th line hasn't been & isn't why they keep missing the playoffs.

In today's NHL the 4th line needs to score...our 4th line does not do that.

In an ideal scenario, our 4th line would consist of something like Smith - Asplund - Rodrigues.

EDIT: This team needs a total overhaul of bad players...guys like Girgensons, Larsson, Sobotka and Wilson need to go. (Bogosian, Scandella and Hunwick too.)

Edited by OhMyDahlin
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18 minutes ago, OhMyDahlin said:

In today's NHL the 4th line needs to score...our 4th line does not do that.

In an ideal scenario, our 4th line would consist of something like Smith - Asplund - Rodrigues.

EDIT: This team needs a total overhaul of bad players...guys like Girgensons, Larsson, Sobotka and Wilson need to go. (Bogosian, Scandella and Hunwick too.)

If the 4th line can keep the other team's 1st line off the scoreboard (like this one did when Berglund was the 3rd piece, and like this was was getting reasonable at doing w/ Okposo the last few games of the year) then their own scoring is simply gravy.

In 2 years, maybe Asplund is ready to take on Larsson's duties & Nylander or other has bumped Rodrigues down to 4th line status.  But they haven't yet & Girgensons & Larry are better than Wilson, Sobotka, or any other currently possibly penciled in a 4LW or 4C.  Smith MIGHT be ready to do that now.  Let him show he is in training camp, not in June.  My 2 cents.

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I don't think Girgensons was treated fairly by Housley. At least Bylsma let him ply his craft taking faceoffs.

His faceoff percentages and volume under Nolan would have put him in the NHL Top 100 this season. 

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3 hours ago, OhMyDahlin said:

In today's NHL the 4th line needs to score...our 4th line does not do that.

In an ideal scenario, our 4th line would consist of something like Smith - Asplund - Rodrigues.

EDIT: This team needs a total overhaul of bad players...guys like Girgensons, Larsson, Sobotka and Wilson need to go. (Bogosian, Scandella and Hunwick too.)

Go look at Boston’s 7-13 forwards: 12, 8, 7, 7, 6, 5 then 3 guys combined for 13 goals.  Boston’s bottom 6 did not score very much, but played good defense while the top-6 did the heavy lifting.  Teams can win that way.

Now, I want guys on every line to score, who doesn’t?  But the truth is that only the very deepest teams in the league have guys on their 4th line hitting the 10 goal mark.  If the 4th line is made up of guys scoring 5, 7, and 8 goals, that’s not much different than a 4th line scoring 8, 9, and 11goals.

To me, it doesn’t really matter if Buffalo gets rid of Larsson, Girgensons, Wilson, Sobotka if they don’t bring in guys who can play a 2nd/3rd line role.  It will have little impact if the team replaces these 4th liners/13th forwards with slightly better 4th liners.  So don’t worry about those 4th liners.  They will get pushed out if/when better players come in.  The focus should be on those better players who need to come in.

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1 hour ago, darksabre said:

I don't think Girgensons was treated fairly by Housley. At least Bylsma let him ply his craft taking faceoffs.

His faceoff percentages and volume under Nolan would have put him in the NHL Top 100 this season. 

Phil seemed to take his player usage straight outta the 1994 NHL playbook. 

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