Casey Mittelstadt: Our 2nd Line Center?

[North Buffalo]

Or he jackpotted himself announcing he was trading O'Reilly and didnt get enough back, or the right personnel back.. quantity v quality

[dudacek]

11 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Definitely. It was the role Botterill was counting on him for that was the issue. Or the role he was counting on him and Berglund filling. Whichever, doesn't really matter. 

Berglund remains an odd one.

Should Botterill have seen the signs before acquiring him? Did Armstrong pull a fast one?

To the casual observer, he should have been a reasonable middle-six player early on and a cap anchor down the road.

He ended up providing nothing on the ice and cap relief off it.

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Berglund remains an odd one.

Should Botterill have seen the signs before acquiring him? Did Armstrong pull a fast one?

To the casual observer, he should have been a reasonable middle-six player early on and a cap anchor down the road.

He ended up providing nothing on the ice and cap relief off it.

I don't agree with this on two counts. One, we didn't need a reasonable middle-six player, we needed a bonafide 2nd liner. So if Berglund was meant to fill that role, it was a bad decision from the start. Particularly when we were sitting at a Selke-level player at square one before his acquisition. 

And two, he had 26 points the season before, and 34 the year before that, and 15 the year before that. On a better team than we had here. There was no way he was going to put up anywhere near the production we needed, long before he skipped town. 

Edited May 17, 2019 by Thorny

[Kruppstahl]

Krueger is a big 1-3-1 forecheck kind of guy and that system puts huge pressure on the centerman to get back and help out with the defense.

I personally don't think that suits Eichel's game and in no way would Mittelstadt have been up to that challenge last year.  How much he can grow into the spot in 2019/2020 remains to be seen.

I do think the idea is for Mittelstadt to be the 2C eventually.  Not sure he can get there, but I am still optimistic and don't see anything to say he definitely can't get there.  Not yet at least.

 

 

[dudacek]

9 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I don't agree with this on two counts. One, we didn't need a reasonable middle-six player, we needed a bonafide 2nd liner. So if Berglund was meant to fill that role, it was a bad decision from the start. Particularly when we were sitting at a Selke-level player at square one before his acquisition. 

And two, he had 26 points the season before, and 34 the year before that, and 15 the year before that. On a better team than we had here. There was no way he was going to put up anywhere near the production we needed, long before he skipped town. 

Doesn’t sound like you are disagreeing with the bolded, just with the idea that Berglund could be a viable second-line centre.

The brass must have really thought O’Reilly was poison, because on the ice he is the answer to our problems.

[Thorny]

2 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Doesn’t sound like you are disagreeing with the bolded, just with the idea that Berglund could be a viable second-line centre.

The brass must have really thought O’Reilly was poison, because on the ice he is the answer to our problems.

True, and I don't think anyone could or should have had that view, heading in. Wasn't he even playing Wing in STL? He never had the ability to address 2C, so whether Botterill thought he, or Mittelstadt, or a combination could fill it, he was wrong, and shouldn't have game planned for it like that in the first place. 

The second point, that's definitely possible. I'm surprised it's not mentioned more the possibility that ROR asked for a trade. That he asked to be dealt and for it to be kept quiet. That seems to be a simple explanation to it all. I'm not saying they had to deal him, and even if they did the return had to be significantly better (it's on Botterill, nothing changes that),  but I can certainly understand why they decided to move him if that's the case. 

[OhMyDahlin]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

Botterill implied Mittelstadt’s conditioning needs work and that is his summer focus.

2006 Derek Roy would be a great thing for Casey to be next year.

Or he hit the "rookie wall" because he had never played more than 34 games in a season, since he was in bantams.

(And those 34 games were his one season in NCAA...before that it was 25 games.)

[7+6=13]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

True, and I don't think anyone could or should have had that view, heading in. Wasn't he even playing Wing in STL? He never had the ability to address 2C, so whether Botterill thought he, or Mittelstadt, or a combination could fill it, he was wrong, and shouldn't have game planned for it like that in the first place. 

The second point, that's definitely possible. I'm surprised it's not mentioned more the possibility that ROR asked for a trade. That he asked to be dealt and for it to be kept quiet. That seems to be a simple explanation to it all. I'm not saying they had to deal him, and even if they did the return had to be significantly better (it's on Botterill, nothing changes that),  but I can certainly understand why they decided to move him if that's the case. 

I just don't understand this thought.  We're a team known for locker room issues (true or not) and O'Reilly was rumored to be a big reason.  He said he lost his love of the game at times.  IMO, there's nothing worse in NHL circles to be linked to.  

O'Reilly's value on an awful team with a seemingly loser mentality attitude - isn't JBot's fault.  The entire market had an opportunity at O'Reilly and that's what we got. 

[Gatorman0519]

Mitts was mishandled.  He is not ready yet.  Should of been in Rochester.  

[Brawndo]

I listened again to Botterill regarding Mittlestadt. He did mention that his conditioning needs to be better and that his offensive ability should allow him to be a part of the Top Six eventually. The last statement leads me to believe Botterill has other plans for 2C, at least in the beginning of the year.

[Derrico]

28 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

I listened again to Botterill regarding Mittlestadt. He did mention that his conditioning needs to be better and that his offensive ability should allow him to be a part of the Top Six eventually. The last statement leads me to believe Botterill has other plans for 2C, at least in the beginning of the year.

Oh God let's hope.  I love Mitts as a prospect and what he will become.  But there's no way I see us making the playoffs next year if we don't have a legit top 6 second line centre on opening night.  

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, Brawndo said:

I listened again to Botterill regarding Mittlestadt. He did mention that his conditioning needs to be better and that his offensive ability should allow him to be a part of the Top Six eventually. The last statement leads me to believe Botterill has other plans for 2C, at least in the beginning of the year.

Whew!! 

Mitts as a 2C and Sobie as a 3C was a major reason we struggled. Bots needs to acquire a real 2C, Mitts is the 3C, and Sobie is out.  That is what I want to see.  

[sweetlou]

13 hours ago, inkman said:

Ideally, JBOT brings in a player that can fill the 2C role until Casey is ready. Probably a 50 pt guy who's good in his own zone on a two year deal. Not sure who that'd be. 

Valtteri Filppula is only UFA that fits the bill. Not sure I would sign him to a two year deal.  Maybe one year at $2.5 Mil AAV.

 

I've also wondered if Botts would ever consider signing a big name like Duchene, or Hayes with the possibility of moving Mitts to a top six wing?

 

[PASabreFan]

Was it a bong?

[inkman]

16 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Whew!! 

Mitts as a 2C and Sobie as a 3C was a major reason we struggled. Bots needs to acquire a real 2C, Mitts is the 3C, and Sobie is out.  That is what I want to see.  

Sobotka is not worthy of a nickname 

15 hours ago, sweetlou said:

Valtteri Filppula is only UFA that fits the bill. Not sure I would sign him to a two year deal.  Maybe one year at $2.5 Mil AAV.

 

I've also wondered if Botts would ever consider signing a big name like Duchene, or Hayes with the possibility of moving Mitts to a top six wing?

 

We need less lightwieghts in this org not more 

[Marvin]

45 minutes ago, inkman said:

Sobotka is not worthy of a nickname 

Not even SOB?

[inkman]

2 hours ago, E4 ... Ke2 said:

Not even SOB?

Perhaps 

[Drunkard]

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 5:56 PM, 7+6=13 said:

I just don't understand this thought.  We're a team known for locker room issues (true or not) and O'Reilly was rumored to be a big reason.  He said he lost his love of the game at times.  IMO, there's nothing worse in NHL circles to be linked to.  

O'Reilly's value on an awful team with a seemingly loser mentality attitude - isn't JBot's fault.  The entire market had an opportunity at O'Reilly and that's what we got. 

It's 100% Botterill's fault unless Terry or Kim flat out told him to move O'Reilly out at any cost before his bonus is due or he's fired. Even in that scenario it's his duty to explain to them that he can follow through with their wishes but it's going to hurt the overall talent level on the club, create a huge hole on the roster, and set the competitiveness of the team back, so given the status of his contract the smarter move would have been to wait for the bonus to get paid and boost his trade value. The return on that trade was pure garbage and he got taken to the cleaners.

[7+6=13]

2 hours ago, Drunkard said:

It's 100% Botterill's fault unless Terry or Kim flat out told him to move O'Reilly out at any cost before his bonus is due or he's fired. Even in that scenario it's his duty to explain to them that he can follow through with their wishes but it's going to hurt the overall talent level on the club, create a huge hole on the roster, and set the competitiveness of the team back, so given the status of his contract the smarter move would have been to wait for the bonus to get paid and boost his trade value. The return on that trade was pure garbage and he got taken to the cleaners.

It's JBot's fault in hindsight, yes.  Paying the bonus would have been foolish and likely wouldn't have boosted is trade value.  It wasn't a money issue - it was the perception of his attitude.  Everyone knows his point totals were well worth his contract.  

[Marvin]

39 minutes ago, 7+6=13 said:

It's JBot's fault in hindsight, yes.  Paying the bonus would have been foolish and likely wouldn't have boosted is trade value.  It wasn't a money issue - it was the perception of his attitude.  Everyone knows his point totals were well worth his contract.  

I suspect that your evaluation of the offers we were getting is largely correct.  The only counter might be is that maybe we don't get saddled with SOBotka.  The only theory that makes any sense to me is that he told Terry and Kim that he was going to move O'Reilly at any cost and their response was, "don't waste our money and then move him before we pay that stinking bonus."  Honestly, if that was it, I would have preferred that he take a bunch of futures instead.

[Drunkard]

51 minutes ago, 7+6=13 said:

It's JBot's fault in hindsight, yes.  Paying the bonus would have been foolish and likely wouldn't have boosted is trade value.  It wasn't a money issue - it was the perception of his attitude.  Everyone knows his point totals were well worth his contract.  

I disagree completely. Paying the bonus certainly impacted the deal if for no other reason than it set an artificial timeline to force the trade when such a timeline should have never existed in the first place because:

A) O'Reilly was still under contract for multiple seasons and

B) His deal had none of the No Trade Clauses or No Movement Clauses that give a player the power to dictate if he gets traded, where he gets traded, and to whom

It was a bad deal (not just in hindsight, it was a bad deal period) and Botterill should have known better. Most of the people on this board knew better and we don't get paid millions of dollars to study the NHL. It's his job to know better and to do better. He failed and there are no excuses that justify it unless he was flat out forced to by ownership.

[Thorny]

28 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

I disagree completely. Paying the bonus certainly impacted the deal if for no other reason than it set an artificial timeline to force the trade when such a timeline should have never existed in the first place because:

A) O'Reilly was still under contract for multiple seasons and

B) His deal had none of the No Trade Clauses or No Movement Clauses that give a player the power to dictate if he gets traded, where he gets traded, and to whom

It was a bad deal (not just in hindsight, it was a bad deal period) and Botterill should have known better. Most of the people on this board knew better and we don't get paid millions of dollars to study the NHL. It's his job to know better and to do better. He failed and there are no excuses that justify it unless he was flat out forced to by ownership.

Not me, I'll admit to being wrong in stating I was in favour of the move at the time it happened. Very wrong. 

Not being paid to be right, I don't lose sleep over it. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Thorny

[North Buffalo]

I admit I thought he had to go, wasnt sure about the deal but was hopeful til I saw Sobotka and Berglund coming back and no young center.  TT had no idea about.  Wanted the deal if it was worth it... it wasnt  

Edited May 20, 2019 by North Buffalo

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, 7+6=13 said:

It's JBot's fault in hindsight, yes.  Paying the bonus would have been foolish and likely wouldn't have boosted is trade value.  It wasn't a money issue - it was the perception of his attitude.  Everyone knows his point totals were well worth his contract.  

Carolina would have been interested in a deal that would have included Elias Lindholm going to Buffalo if the deal happened after July 1st. It was a bad time for Pegula to choose to save money. 

When the Sabres said no, Waddell moved onto Calgary. 

 

[7+6=13]

1 hour ago, Drunkard said:

I disagree completely. Paying the bonus certainly impacted the deal if for no other reason than it set an artificial timeline to force the trade when such a timeline should have never existed in the first place because:

A) O'Reilly was still under contract for multiple seasons and

B) His deal had none of the No Trade Clauses or No Movement Clauses that give a player the power to dictate if he gets traded, where he gets traded, and to whom

It was a bad deal (not just in hindsight, it was a bad deal period) and Botterill should have known better. Most of the people on this board knew better and we don't get paid millions of dollars to study the NHL. It's his job to know better and to do better. He failed and there are no excuses that justify it unless he was flat out forced to by ownership.

I only mean it was a bad deal in hindsight because O'Reilly proved that he wasn't a high priced player with motivation issues and a possible locker room problem.  Of course we as fans don't have enough information to know but based on the trade - we deduct that was the issue for not getting more.  

Again, all we can do is speculate but we have to believe JBot shopped the Blues offer and at least in his view - there wasn't a better one.  The market spoke on what teams would give if you believe the deal we took is the indicator.