Non Sabres Deadline Trades/Rumors

[TrueBlueGED]

2 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Imagine if Mr I’ll drill another well,  had paid the bonus, Elias Lindholm would be the Sabres 2C right now 

Or Botterill could have decided that trading a Selke-caliber center was a bad idea and not tried to move him in the first place. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by TrueBlueGED

[Thorny]

5 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

its always been about the 2020-21 season. I do believe the rumors that he is trying to make a "significant" move. It will come but maybe not until the off-season. 

Unfortunately, as the saying goes, it takes 2 to Tango.

I know we all blame JB for not doing anything but who are the second line centers out there worth giving up at least a 1st round pick?  I'm not sure that player exists.

 

 

 

but the calculator Sabres bloggers told us that Sheary just had bad puck luck!

Coulda had point a game JT Miller for a first this past summer 

Can’t go wrong with slick, puck moving, left shot, second pair ceiling D man Ryan Johnson, though. He clearly fills a desperate need.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Thorny

[Curt]

53 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Botterill’s failure was deciding to move ROR in the first place. 

 

52 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Or Botterill could have decided that trading a Selke-caliber center was a bad idea and not tried to move him in the first place. 

I obviously do not know for sure, but it very well could have been a decision that was made for him, by Pegula or O’Reilly or both.

Of course we have gone over this so many times.

[Thorny]

17 minutes ago, Curt said:

 

I obviously do not know for sure, but it very well could have been a decision that was made for him, by Pegula or O’Reilly or both.

Of course we have gone over this so many times.

I highly doubt that’s the case, and even if it was, that puts us in an even WORSE position organizationally so I don’t care to give it much thought (ROR can’t make that decision, and if Pegula did, we are screwed anyways). 

Looking at Bahtrill’s resume as a whole I have zero problem believing the decision to trade ROR was his. 

Besides, I have no reason to go out on a limb to defend him, if someone wants to argue he was handcuffed beaten and forced to move ROR against his own judgment, the burden of proof is on them. I’ll continue to believe the guy in charge of assembling the team in fact was the decider in this particular assembly decision unless it’s demonstrated otherwise. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Thorny

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

Botterill’s failure was deciding to move ROR in the first place. 

 

1 hour ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Or Botterill could have decided that to trading a Selke-caliber center was a bad idea and not tried to move him in the first place. 

Again when your owner tells you to move him off my team before his bonus is due, your options are limited. Convincing him that the drop off from ROR to Lindholm isn’t the GD Cliff that was the drop off from ROR to the crap return that came back was on him though.
 

ROR pissed off the Pegulas when he allegedly drove into the Tim Horton’s less than a week after becoming the highest paid Sabre in history. 

Same thing will Kane, once the Bottoms Up Incident occurred, the Pegulas wanted him gone. 
 

This is not a defense of Botterill’s Other Actions. His inability to further upgrade the forward ranks is very concerning.

If there is a proven GM who wants the job by all means move on from him. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Brawndo

[Thorny]

33 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

 

Again when your owner tells you to move him off my team before his bonus is due, your options are limited. Convincing him that the drop off from ROR to Lindholm isn’t the GD Cliff that was the drop off from ROR to the crap return that came back. 
 

ROR pissed off the Pegulas when he allegedly drove into the Tim Horton’s less than a week after becoming the highest paid Sabre in history. 

Same thing will Kane, once the Bottoms Up Incident occurred, the Pegulas wanted him gone. 
 

This is not a defense of Botterill’s Other Actions. His inability to further upgrade the forward ranks is very concerning.

If there is a proven GM who wants the job by all means move on from him. 

No. He told him to move him before the bonus IF HE WAS TO BE MOVED. It’s Botterill’s call. 

We are going to need some proof that Botterill actually wanted to keep him given the choice, if these circular discussions are to continue.

Edited December 30, 2019 by Thorny

[Curt]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I highly doubt that’s the case, and even if it was, that puts us in an even WORSE position organizationally so I don’t care to give it much thought (ROR can’t make that decision, and if Pegula did, we are screwed anyways). 

Looking at Bahtrill’s resume as a whole I have zero problem believing the decision to trade ROR was his. 

I see no consistency between the O’Reilly deal and Boterill’s other moves.  It seems that the deal was rushed/forced into a strict timeline, whereas every other Botterill move has been patient (even overly patient to a fault in some cases).

You think Botterill decided not to pay the bonus in order to get a better trade return?  Thus lowering O’Reilly’s trade value and also creating an artificial deadline for the deal.

If O’Reilly goes into end of year interviews and says “I am done with this team/organization.  I can’t see myself being here next season.  I’m completely miserable here.”  You don’t NEED to trade him, but do you want that guy back, around a bunch of kids on a young team?

 

[Thorny]

23 minutes ago, Curt said:

I see no consistency between the O’Reilly deal and Boterill’s other moves.  It seems that the deal was rushed/forced into a strict timeline, whereas every other Botterill move has been patient (even overly patient to a fault in some cases).

You think Botterill decided not to pay the bonus in order to get a better trade return?  Thus lowering O’Reilly’s trade value and also creating an artificial deadline for the deal.

If O’Reilly goes into end of year interviews and says “I am done with this team/organization.  I can’t see myself being here next season.  I’m completely miserable here.”  You don’t NEED to trade him, but do you want that guy back, around a bunch of kids on a young team?

 

No. My argument is not that Pegula didn’t impose a timeline. I believe he did, but it was still upon a roster decision transaction that BAHTRILL had decided to make in the first place. 

He decided to move ROR, and Pegula said “ok, but I’m not paying that mofo’s bonus $ then right before we ship him out”. 

I find that exceptionally more likely than “Oh no PLEASE Terry, don’t make me trade this guy I really want to keep!” “MOVE HIM, Jason, and BEFORE the bonus, too!”

Botterill decided to trade him. If he keeps him (which he obviously should have regardless) Pegula never even has an opportunity to impose his timeline. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Thorny

[Brawndo]

25 minutes ago, Thorny said:

No. He told him to move him before the bonus IF WE WAS TO BE MOVED. It’s Botterill’s call. 

We are going to need some proof that Botterill actually wanted to keep him given the choice of these circular discussions are to continue. 

That’s strange, because all the best offers he received, including a package surrounding Lindholm/Skinner coming to Buffalo, were after the bonus was due. These offers were presented to Pegula as better returns and the answer was still July 1st by 11:59pm.

Why do you think Berglund was so shocked to find out he was moved, the final pieces of the deal came together as Botterill was finalizing the deal, while trying to get an extension past July 1st from the Boss. 
 

Two things have had strong influence over Pegula since he became owner of the Bills. The first is how much better the business side of the Bills was run than the Sabres(which lead to Russ Brandon taking over both operations) and later Sean McDermott preaching culture and removing bad influences from his locker room. Pegula deduced incorrectly that this should be applied to the Sabres Room as well.

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

That’s strange, because all the best offers he received, including a package surrounding Lindholm/Skinner coming to Buffalo, were after the bonus was due. These offers were presented to Pegula as better returns and the answer was still July 1st by 11:59pm.

Why do you think Berglund was so shocked to find out he was moved, the final pieces of the deal came together as Botterill was finalizing the deal, while trying to get an extension past July 1st from the Boss. 
 

Two things have had strong influence over Pegula since he became owner of the Bills. The first is how much better the business side of the Bills was run than the Sabres(which lead to Russ Brandon taking over both operations) and later Sean McDermott preaching culture and removing bad influences from his locker room. Pegula deduced incorrectly that this should be applied to the Sabres Room as well.

I don’t even understand what you are trying to argue anymore. Are you reading my posts? Yes, I believe Pegula imposed a deadline. But the decision to actually move ROR was NOT his. 

Is your argument that the decision to move him at conception was Pegula’s? Then scrap any and all Botterill threads, he’s accountantable for zero, we cannot ever assume it isn’t Pegula himself pulling the strings. 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Thorny

[thewookie1]

38 minutes ago, Thorny said:

No. He told him to move him before the bonus IF WE WAS TO BE MOVED. It’s Botterill’s call. 

We are going to need some proof that Botterill actually wanted to keep him given the choice, if these circular discussions are to continue.

Hmm, I imagine this scenario:

January 2018

Botts to Pegula: I'm thinking about trading ROR to bolster our team depth elsewhere.

Pegula: Why?

Botts: I believe he may be the case of the rift in the locker room

Pegula: Alright

 

June 2018

Pegula: I thought you were trading ROR? I'm not all that happy with his post-season comments. Not to mention his drunken escapades after I gave him a contract....

Botts: I'm trying; big trades are difficult in-season due to the salary cap

Pegula: Well, get it done before his bonus is needing to be paid

Botts: Why?

Pegula: I'm done paying that guy a dime to play elsewhere after trashing our franchise.

Botts: Ok, I guess. I do have a couple trades in the works with Montreal and Carolina so ideally he'll be gone at the draft.

 

June 30th 2018

Botts: Carolina wants the bonus paid Terry

Pegula: Then send him somewhere else, I'm not paying him to play in Carolina

Botts: I'll try but I'm only getting weak offers

Pegula: I have faith in you

July 1st 2018

Botts: Well this really sucks, I have only three options St. Louis, Montreal, or keep him. Montreal's offer is less than I wanted and is in the division, St. Louis is in the West and is offering a 1st but I have to pick up salary to make it work, or I can keep him but Mr. Pegula will be rather curious as to why I said he was a locker room cancer and then chose to hold onto him. Carolina is still offering me Lindholm and Skinner but they need the bonus paid. Well, I guess I'll bite the bullet and take St. Louis's offer since its the least likely to hurt us directly and they are offering the most NHL-caliber players and a 1st. Berglund is a 3C, Sobotka a 4C whom both have playoff experience; Berglund could shelter Mitts to start the year. Tage Thompson is a big shooter and we have no one like that so that seems ideal and you can't go wrong with a 1st and a later 2nd. 

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by thewookie1

[Thorny]

^ It still starts with JB’s asinine decision to want to move him in the first place. He’s literally exactly what this team is missing 

There is zero proof Pegula actually conceived the trade 

Edited December 30, 2019 by Thorny

[thewookie1]

10 minutes ago, Thorny said:

^ It still starts with JB’s asinine decision to want to move him in the first place. He’s literally exactly what this team is missing 

There is zero proof Pegula actually conceived the trade 

I'd guess Botts conceived the idea, Pegula effectively hand cuffed his ability to deal him, Botts trades ROR in order to not look out-of-touch to ownership while doing exactly that to the fans.

[Thorny]

5 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I'd guess Botts conceived the idea, Pegula effectively hand cuffed his ability to deal him, Botts trades ROR in order to not look out-of-touch to ownership while doing exactly that to the fans.

That’s fair. I’ve always been ready to lay blame at Pegula’s feet, too, for that one particular deal. BOTH him and the GM share blame on that one. 

[Brawndo]

8 minutes ago, Thorny said:

^ It still starts with JB’s asinine decision to want to move him in the first place. He’s literally exactly what this team is missing 

There is zero proof Pegula actually conceived the trade 

And I have laid out two instances where Pegula was pissed at O’Reilly and both which were embarrassing to organization, that he took quite personally. The unwritten rule is the Pegulas will take great care of you and your family as players, just do not embarrass them. He did that TWICE.

Whether or not Botterill wanted to keep ROR was moot, because that decision was made for him before the end of the year meetings with the TPegs. 
 

For further proof, Pegula said himself at the press conference after GMTM and DD where fired that he was going to take a larger role in the team as he was not unaware of the issues with the team. 

[Taro T]

14 minutes ago, Thorny said:

^ It still starts with JB’s asinine decision to want to move him in the first place. He’s literally exactly what this team is missing 

There is zero proof Pegula actually conceived the trade 

Conceived the return on the trade, or the trade itself?

There is zero proof at all as to who wanted him traded, but Brawndo makes a compelling case as to why it was Terry Pegula's idea to move him.  And it also doesn't require a stretch of imagination to believe the deadline was imposed by TP.

But as Tom Webster pointed out, Botterill needed to make TP understand how much better the Canes deal was than the Blues deal was.  (And if he didn't recognize that himself, well then, yes, he should be gone.  But that likely isn't the case.)

And, you could be correct that Botterill came up with the idea of trading him; but that seems less likely IMHO.  Especially if Eichel didn't have any issues w/ O'Reilly (like Hamsammich told us at the time).   

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

And I have laid out two instances where Pegula was pissed at O’Reilly and both which were embarrassing to organization, that he took quite personally. The unwritten rule is the Pegulas will take great care of you and your family as players, just do not embarrass them. He did that TWICE.

Whether or not Botterill wanted to keep ROR was moot, because that decision was made for him before the end of the year meetings with the TPegs. 
 

For further proof, Pegula said himself at the press conference after GMTM and DD where fired that he was going to take a larger role in the team as he was not unaware of the issues with the team. 

None of that is proof. You are making a big jump to assuming Pegula was actually the initial brain behind deciding to move him. 

Also, your defence 100%, totally absolves Botterill of all blame regarding the move. So please stop saying it’s not a defence of Botterill, cause it totally is. 

 

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Conceived the return on the trade, or the trade itself?

There is zero proof at all as to who wanted him traded, but Brawndo makes a compelling case as to why it was Terry Pegula's idea to move him.  And it also doesn't require a stretch of imagination to believe the deadline was imposed by TP.

But as Tom Webster pointed out, Botterill needed to make TP understand how much better the Canes deal was than the Blues deal was.  (And if he didn't recognize that himself, well then, yes, he should be gone.  But that likely isn't the case.)

And, you could be correct that Botterill came up with the idea of trading him; but that seems less likely IMHO.  Especially if Eichel didn't have any issues w/ O'Reilly (like Hamsammich told us at the time).   

Lol. If Pegula both conceived of, and forced the trade, we might as well just log off cause there’s no end in sight to the madness. 

[Brawndo]

14 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

I'd guess Botts conceived the idea, Pegula effectively hand cuffed his ability to deal him, Botts trades ROR in order to not look out-of-touch to ownership while doing exactly that to the fans.

Actually both Carolina was out long before the deadline, Montreal walked away from the deal, St Louis( who really believed they were out at around 3pm on July 1st, 2018) and The Islanders( as reported by Arthur Staple) were the final three 
 

When it was apparent that the bonus would not be paid, Carolina moved onto Calgary and the Lindholm Deal was completed with them on June 23rd. 
 

Botterill was asking for Ryan Poehling, a second and plus from Montreal and Bergervin said no. ( This was reported in an interview with Bergervin in the Athletic in Sept 2018) 

[sabremike]

Botts was actively shopping ROR well before the 2018 trade deadline. He clearly wanted to get rid of him. Botts is far and away the absolute worst GM in the entire league, a complete and total failure. Our roster is terrible, our prospect pool is mediocre at best (and at forward it's actually really bad), the drafting has been poor (passing on the leading goal scorer in the OHL for a dime a dozen defensive prospect, packaging late round picks to move up in late rounds, the infamous 6th round trade with the Leafs that was among the stupidest things in sports history) and absolute stupidity in handling player development (Tage and Mitts). There is no excuse for him not being sacked the second yet another non playoff (and very possibly another bottom 5 season) ends. 

[Taro T]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

None of that is proof. You are making a big jump to assuming Pegula was actually the initial brain behind deciding to move him. 

Also, your defence 100%, totally absolves Botterill of all blame regarding the move. So please stop saying it’s not a defence of Botterill, cause it totally is. 

 

Lol. If Pegula both conceived of, and forced the trade, we might as well just log off cause there’s no end in sight to the madness. 

Except there is an end in sight.   Botterill understands (or at least seems to work within) the McBeane / Pegula tenet of character matters and the pieces have to work with the others.  Murray absolutely in no way agreed with that.  And the 3 guys that were key pieces of Murray's rebuild that had baggage (rightly or wrongly) ended up getting dispatched at what certainly seemed below market value.  Nobody else has been moved out at less than market value.

And, each of those 3 spent at least 2 years in Buffalo.  So, it's not like in general the word coming down from on top is 'move that guy right fricking now.'  But, move that guy (that ownership sees character issues with) without taking nearly 8 figures worth of the owners' money could end up an issue should Botterill set such a scenario up.  Of course, flip side of that is, hopefully & likely, Botterill told Pegula he wouldn't get equivalent value back for him and that played out in spades, so should a similar situation set itself up Botterill can tell him 'remember how the last deal you insisted on that you were warned would stink ended up stinking? Well, you need to listen on this one.'

Yes, that's speculation, but at least there's a reason to not expect a repeat.  That was a very specific unique situation.

[Cascade Youth]

Ugh.

[TrueBlueGED]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

 

Again when your owner tells you to move him off my team before his bonus is due, your options are limited. Convincing him that the drop off from ROR to Lindholm isn’t the GD Cliff that was the drop off from ROR to the crap return that came back was on him though.
 

ROR pissed off the Pegulas when he allegedly drove into the Tim Horton’s less than a week after becoming the highest paid Sabre in history. 

Same thing will Kane, once the Bottoms Up Incident occurred, the Pegulas wanted him gone. 
 

This is not a defense of Botterill’s Other Actions. His inability to further upgrade the forward ranks is very concerning.

If there is a proven GM who wants the job by all means move on from him. 

Did this happen in January? Because O'Reilly's name was out there as available in the lead-up to the trade deadline. And if it was the Tim Horton's incident that was the catalyst, it you're telling me Pegula was willing to pay the bonus the next year, but not the year after? The idea that Pegula came down to Botterill during the middle of the season and said "trade that guy before July 1" is pretty weak to me. Especially when you consider Botterill has turned over 80% of the forward roster and brought in a single good player, tied himself to Housley after year 1, and grossly overrated Mitts....I'm just not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that the O'Reilly fiasco is Pegula's brainchild. 

[Brawndo]

22 minutes ago, Thorny said:

None of that is proof. You are making a big jump to assuming Pegula was actually the initial brain behind deciding to move him. 

Also, your defence 100%, totally absolves Botterill of all blame regarding the move. So please stop saying it’s not a defence of Botterill, cause it totally is. 

 

Lol. If Pegula both conceived of, and forced the trade, we might as well just log off cause there’s no end in sight to the madness. 

The person I heard this from is close enough to the situation to know where it originated from. 
 

My statement of this is not a defense/defence of Botterill was in regards to other moves, namely his second picks in the past two drafts, along with lack of moves, not the ROR Trade, so can I continue saying that?
 

 

11 minutes ago, sabremike said:

Botts was actively shopping ROR well before the 2018 trade deadline. He clearly wanted to get rid of him. Botts is far and away the absolute worst GM in the entire league, a complete and total failure. Our roster is terrible, our prospect pool is mediocre at best (and at forward it's actually really bad), the drafting has been poor (passing on the leading goal scorer in the OHL for a dime a dozen defensive prospect, packaging late round picks to move up in late rounds, the infamous 6th round trade with the Leafs that was among the stupidest things in sports history) and absolute stupidity in handling player development (Tage and Mitts). There is no excuse for him not being sacked the second yet another non playoff (and very possibly another bottom 5 season) ends. 

Botterill said he wanted to spend his first season (2017-18) evaluating the team to buy some time after he was hired. Pegula had his ideas on what changes he wanted made (ROR and Kane) but agreed to gave Botterill that time. He was listening to offers on ROR as the 2018 Deadline approached, but it would have taken a huge overpay to get him at that time.

Botterill did make the Jokiharju for Nylander Swap as well as the Skinner Trade, so total complete and failure might be a stretch. 
 

The rest however you will not get an argument from me. 
 

 

[TrueBlueGED]

15 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

The person I heard this from is close enough to the situation to know where it originated from. 
 

My statement of this is not a defense/defence of Botterill was in regards to other moves, namely his second picks in the past two drafts, along with lack of moves, not the ROR Trade, so can I continue saying that?
 

 

Botterill said he wanted to spend his first season (2017-18) evaluating the team to buy some time after he was hired. Pegula had his ideas on what changes he wanted made (ROR and Kane) but agreed to gave Botterill that time. He was listening to offers on ROR as the 2018 Deadline approached, but it would have taken a huge overpay to get him at that time.

Botterill did make the Jokiharju for Nylander Swap as well as the Skinner Trade, so total complete and failure might be a stretch. 
 

The rest however you will not get an argument from me. 
 

 

And this is the crux of it. Pegula gave Botterill discretion, and Botterill came to the conclusion that O'Reilly should be traded. That's all Thorny and I have been saying...Pegula may have placed the handcuffs on, but the ultimate decision to make the move was Botterill's. Assuming this played out as you described, Botterill could simply have planned to keep O'Reilly. 

[Brawndo]

20 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Did this happen in January? Because O'Reilly's name was out there as available in the lead-up to the trade deadline. And if it was the Tim Horton's incident that was the catalyst, it you're telling me Pegula was willing to pay the bonus the next year, but not the year after? The idea that Pegula came down to Botterill during the middle of the season and said "trade that guy before July 1" is pretty weak to me. Especially when you consider Botterill has turned over 80% of the forward roster and brought in a single good player, tied himself to Housley after year 1, and grossly overrated Mitts....I'm just not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that the O'Reilly fiasco is Pegula's brainchild. 

Pegula had his ideas who he wanted off the team during his initial interviews/meetings with Botterill, but he agreed to let Botterill make his own assessment of room and see what happens with a new staff. ROR Name was out there at the 2018 Deadline, but the his cost was astronomical at the time.  The TH Incident pissed him off, but the locker room continuing to be a CF along with Lost My Love For the Game was the catalyst for trade the guy before July 1st. 
 

This team would be better off in a proven, more capable GM’s Hands. 
 

My concern is that after Todd McClellan told the Pegulas you have a reputation around the NHL for firing people, that the only  replacement willing to take the job will suck just as bad