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Around the NHL Summer 2019


spndnchz

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49 minutes ago, #freejame said:

I don’t think Francis sniffs the top ten, but it would make for a good off-season thread. 

 

33 minutes ago, shrader said:

I've always called him overrated, and that was before he just inexplicably was thrown in the top ten.  I was one of those guys who was on the Adam Oates HoF train every single year he was passed over.  Take a look at him and Francis, a first ballot inductee from the same era, side by side.  There are only two differences: longevity and riding the coattails of a superteam to back to back cups.  These were both really good players worth of the HoF, but there's a long list of busts I would flock to first if I ever make it back to that building.

I can think of three other Penguins alone who are/were better.

Edited by Eleven
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2 hours ago, Let's Go B-Lo said:

Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby, Coffey, Joey Mullen...

Kevin Stevens was great for a few seasons too, my fave Pen back then. 

It’s too bad what the prescription drugs did to him after they had to repair his face. 

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4 hours ago, Eleven said:

 

I can think of three other Penguins alone who are/were better.

There's at least 6 from just 2 of the Pens teams through the years that were better than Ronnie Francis.

If they wanted to say he's a top 10 NHL Whalers/ Canes player; THAT is realistic.  And he or Eric Staal can make a strong case as their best player.  (52 yo Gordie Howe doesn't count.)

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12 hours ago, Let's Go B-Lo said:

That's an odd list though. There are several guys who pop up that it's easy to forget were Whalers/Canes.

Chris Pronger, Brendan Shanahan, Paul Coffey, Mark Howe, Bobby Holik, Ulf Samuelsson, Kevin Dineen, Keith Primeau, Pat Verbeek, Andrew Cassels, Geoff Sanderson, Sami Kapanen, Rod BrindAmour...

The front office you could build from former Whalers is pretty impressive.

Ken Holland, Joel Quenneville, Paul Fenton, Marc Bergevin, Dave Tippett, John Stevens.

Pronger was feared to be a bust when he was traded for Shanahan who spent barely more than 1 year in Hartford.  Coffee's talent fell off the face of the Earth when he went to Hartford.

Mark Howe was excellent while in Hartford, but the team was COMPLETELY irrelevant while he was there.

Holik was a promising kid in Hartford, but nothing more than that while there.

Primeau was very good for them, but IMHO wasn't as good as those mentioned in the post you were referring to.  Would say the same about Ol' Camel face (Brindamour). 

Ulfie was good but a seriously dirty mo fo.

The others being in any franchises "all timers" is a big part of the issues that franchise has had through the years.

My 2 cents.  YMMV.

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4 hours ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Stastny, Forsberg, Datsyuk...

Yep.

4 hours ago, #freejame said:

I think a good argument can be made for Jumbo Joe being top five

Not a ####ing chance.  Dumbo D'oh might be one of the worst playoff chokers of all time.

Unless that was the angle you were going for.  Then we're TOTALLY on the same page.

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And if you were serious, which of these do you put him ahead of:

Gretzky, Lemieux, Perreault, Oates, Yzerman, Hawerchuk, or Crosby.  You need to have Dumbo ahead of at least 3 of those to have him having an OPPORTUNITY for being top 5.  And there are SEVERAL others that deserve consideration as well.

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5 hours ago, Taro T said:

Yep.

Not a ####ing chance.  Dumbo D'oh might be one of the worst playoff chokers of all time.

Unless that was the angle you were going for.  Then we're TOTALLY on the same page.

He’s been the best passer in the league over the last twenty years and will likely end up sixth all-time in assists. Not having success in the playoffs doesnt mean he isn’t one of the best playmakers ever. Not to mention he averages .57/apg in the playoffs compared to .68/apg regular season. There’s also only two players to have led the league in assists more times than Thornton—Gretzky and Lemieux.  

 

Of those you named, he can go well ahead of Gilbert, as well as closer to but still ahead of Howerchuk, Crosby, Yzerman, and Oates (who’s really the only person you named in the conversation for top five.)

Edited by #freejame
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4 hours ago, #freejame said:

He’s been the best passer in the league over the last twenty years and will likely end up sixth all-time in assists. Not having success in the playoffs doesnt mean he isn’t one of the best playmakers ever. Not to mention he averages .57/apg in the playoffs compared to .68/apg regular season. There’s also only two players to have led the league in assists more times than Thornton—Gretzky and Lemieux.  

 

Of those you named, he can go well ahead of Gilbert, as well as closer to but still ahead of Howerchuk, Crosby, Yzerman, and Oates (who’s really the only person you named in the conversation for top five.)

He was lucky enough to play most of his career between Marleau & Pavelski.  Any of those other guys would've done better than Dumbo in that situation.

He has been a product of his line mates his entire career.  Going back to his Bah-stan days playing with guys like Guerin & Samsonov.  There's a reason Bah-stan considered him expendable.  There's also a reason that now that Thornton is long in the tooth & no longer a key piece that that team does better in the playoffs.  ?

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21 hours ago, Taro T said:

He was lucky enough to play most of his career between Marleau & Pavelski.  Any of those other guys would've done better than Dumbo in that situation.

He has been a product of his line mates his entire career.  Going back to his Bah-stan days playing with guys like Guerin & Samsonov.  There's a reason Bah-stan considered him expendable.  There's also a reason that now that Thornton is long in the tooth & no longer a key piece that that team does better in the playoffs.  ?

Come on now, let's not pretend that Boston had the slightest clue what they were doing when they made that trade.

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