How has this team completely reverted back to the worst team in the NHL again???

[PerreaultForever]

5 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Maybe because the Sabres feel the pressure of expectations... Eichel...Dahlin...Skinner...a retooled roster that started out great...and when the play started going South they panicked and didnt know how to right the ship...and when you look to your coach for answers and he gices you none you lose heart...you think its hopeless...

This team seems like a team that simply doesn't believe their coach can help them right the ship or get them to where they want to go.

Too much faith in coaching imo. These players you mention (aside from Dahlin) have had numerous coaches. They need to look in the mirror. 

[PromoTheRobot]

Here's my uneducated take.

In football you can come up with a gameplan that will work for a while. Eventually some team figures out what you're doing and finds a way to defend it.

Good coaches can adjust. Bad coaches can't. Housley blew his wad during the win streak and has nothing to counterpunch with.

 

[PerreaultForever]

Look, this team hasn't been able to score goals in a really really long time. This is why Bylsma tried a boring defensive system. The new regime has installed a speed oriented offensive game but when you stay on the perimeter and never score that falls apart and you become the joke you see on the ice now. So you want what? A shut down D coach to try to win 1-0 with our goalies? Really? 

It was a fragile system during the win streak, but when the games got tighter and our goaltending fell apart the wheels came off and there is no way to put them back on without scoring goals. 

[matter2003]

14 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Look, this team hasn't been able to score goals in a really really long time. This is why Bylsma tried a boring defensive system. The new regime has installed a speed oriented offensive game but when you stay on the perimeter and never score that falls apart and you become the joke you see on the ice now. So you want what? A shut down D coach to try to win 1-0 with our goalies? Really? 

It was a fragile system during the win streak, but when the games got tighter and our goaltending fell apart the wheels came off and there is no way to put them back on without scoring goals. 

It's working for Dallas...they have the 3rd fewest goals in the NHL but they are in a playoff spot because they have the 2nd fewest goals allowed in the NHL and have a +6 goal differential

[Formerly Allan in MD]

It starts with the defense and goaltending. If you're not going to score a lot of goals, you're going nowhere if you don't have top tier defensemen and stellar goaltending.  We're careless on defense and not a rock 'em sock 'em defensive team; so teams know they can feel comfortable on the attack.  Plus Housley's thing is defensemen taking the offense.  That's a risky proposition when few are supposed to stay at home and are perhaps not that adept at it.  Plus, it puts significant additional pressure on your goaltenders.  Finally, as good as Dahlin is at 18, he's prone to make mistakes.  And he's made a lot of them that have cost us.

For those who say the goaltending is not very good, I beg to differ.  The jury is more out than in, in that regard.  Getting outshot night after night wears on goalies.  You can see the flashes of Hutton's frustration at times.  Plus, until this season, Hutton was not a number one goalie and is thus playing a lot more minutes than he's used to.  That combined with the nightly barrages is going to wear down any decent goalie.  And Hutton is a perfect example of that as he's frequently shown how good he can be.  Ullmark, on the other hand, is a rookie.  He's still learning and has, as well, worn down following a decent early season performance.  Goalies need help; this team doesn't provide much.

When we won a lot of early season games by the skin of your teeth, that involved a fair amount of luck and breaks.  Our success came early on and we didn't have enough offense to counter our deficiencies over a long period of time.

Finally, Phil Housley is not a good coach.  Over the course of two years, that's become quite obvious.  And it's reached the point that he's clearly lost his team.  Most players are clearly frustrated and simply playing out the string.  If Phil's retained, it's because of inexperience, if not incompetence, on the part of management.  Sabres fans deserve better.

 

[kas23]

8 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Sadly, this may be true about Eichel...

TB and Calgary have 3 players with more points. Colorado, Toronto, Edmonton, Pittsburgh, Winnipeg, Boston, Florida, and Chicago all have 2 players with as many points as Eichel(OK Toews only has 76 points but still...they also have DeBrincat with 3 fewer points than Eichel at 74)

And several other teams have players with more points than Eichel as well.

I mean look at McDavid and Dreisatl with 100+ points a piece(and still out of the playoffs).

77 points is a good season, but its tied for 27th in the league. Some of the players above him are good but not great players, and the 2 players he is tied with are Pastrnak and Bergeron who have played 11 fewer games, so realistically he is 29th.

Should we be expecting more from him? Would we have gotten more from him if Skinner was still on the top line?

Would you trade Jack for Jack (ie #1 pick in 2019 draft)? I just think Eichel needs a different environment. One where he isn’t relied on to carry a team. A team that’s already winning and he’s just a cog of the wheel. 

[matter2003]

1 hour ago, kas23 said:

Would you trade Jack for Jack (ie #1 pick in 2019 draft)? I just think Eichel needs a different environment. One where he isn’t relied on to carry a team. A team that’s already winning and he’s just a cog of the wheel. 

Who knows..we are going to finish pretty low so our odds of getting Hughes while not great are probably 1 in 10 or so...

[Billznut]

30 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

Who knows..we are going to finish pretty low so our odds of getting Hughes while not great are probably 1 in 10 or so...

Our odds are currently 9.5% for the first pick, 9.6% for the 2nd pick, and 9.7% for the third pick. If NJ and LA can pass us during this final week, a distinct possibility, we are sitting very pretty. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Billznut

[matter2003]

12 hours ago, Formerly Allan in MD said:

It starts with the defense and goaltending. If you're not going to score a lot of goals, you're going nowhere if you don't have top tier defensemen and stellar goaltending.  We're careless on defense and not a rock 'em sock 'em defensive team; so teams know they can feel comfortable on the attack.  Plus Housley's thing is defensemen taking the offense.  That's a risky proposition when few are supposed to stay at home and are perhaps not that adept at it.  Plus, it puts significant additional pressure on your goaltenders.  Finally, as good as Dahlin is at 18, he's prone to make mistakes.  And he's made a lot of them that have cost us.

For those who say the goaltending is not very good, I beg to differ.  The jury is more out than in, in that regard.  Getting outshot night after night wears on goalies.  You can see the flashes of Hutton's frustration at times.  Plus, until this season, Hutton was not a number one goalie and is thus playing a lot more minutes than he's used to.  That combined with the nightly barrages is going to wear down any decent goalie.  And Hutton is a perfect example of that as he's frequently shown how good he can be.  Ullmark, on the other hand, is a rookie.  He's still learning and has, as well, worn down following a decent early season performance.  Goalies need help; this team doesn't provide much.

When we won a lot of early season games by the skin of your teeth, that involved a fair amount of luck and breaks.  Our success came early on and we didn't have enough offense to counter our deficiencies over a long period of time.

Finally, Phil Housley is not a good coach.  Over the course of two years, that's become quite obvious.  And it's reached the point that he's clearly lost his team.  Most players are clearly frustrated and simply playing out the string.  If Phil's retained, it's because of inexperience, if not incompetence, on the part of management.  Sabres fans deserve better.

 

The problem with this rookie goaltender argument is other teams have rookie goalies step in and do very well...look at Philly...Carter Hart helped them go from worst team in the NHL to just being eliminated from the playoffs a few days ago...well after we were...his 2.77 .919 numbers are way better than Ullmark's too.  Look at Jordan Binnington in St. Louis...posting stellar 1.85 and .928 numbers.  Being a rookie holds no water for a goaltender doing poorly, as numerous others around the league do very well. 

[...]

I think this is germane to the conversation.  Howard and Jeremy pretty much nail it about why the Sabres are where they're at.  At least in my opinion.

 

[Believer]

It’s apparent the players don’t like Housley’s system... They either don’t understand how to execute it as a group on the ice... or they quit on it and are playing their own game... It is a complete fail... Housley has to go... Botterill needs to hire a firebrand who can motivate this bunch of coddled underachievers... Botterill is on the dime... Pegulas need to demand results from him or hire a hockey czar to supervise the guy...

Edited April 1, 2019 by Believer

[Pimlach]

23 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The Sabres are 26th this season in GA.

The Sabres were 31st last season in GA

The Sabres were 26th in GA in 2016-17

The Sabres were 23rd in GA in 2015-16

30th in 2014-15 and 30th in 2013-14.

Any real question where the problem lies?

McCabe has been a full-time D with the Sabres since 2015-16 as has Bogosian

Ristolainen has been full-time since 2014-15.  This is Scandella's second full season.

These 4 guys are the core of our D group. Dahlin is a rookie and is the centerpiece of the core of the future.  However these 4 were all thought to be part of the solution look more like the problem.  It's interesting but this is the one area Jbot didn't really change year over year. Only Dahlin was really new.  Risto, Bogo, Scandy, McCabe, Baloo were all in our top 6 last year when we finished 31st and returned this season. Lehner wasn't the answer, but it's become pretty clear that he was only part of the problem.  

Sadly all 4 of these guys are under contract or control for next year.  I'm sorry but most of these guys have to be sent packing.  Getting Montour was the first step in overhauling this failed group.  The question is now do any of these 4 return next season?

 

I would keep Bogo.  The rest are tradable, including Nelson and Hunwick.  I hate giving up on Risto, but he is the only player there that could possible get us a 2C.    Beside we are talking culture change. 

Next year that leaves us with Dahlin, Bogo, Montour,  Pilut and Borgen.   Would be nice to get some more size and toughness back there. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

3 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I would keep Bogo.  The rest are tradable, including Nelson and Hunwick.  I hate giving up on Risto, but he is the only player there that could possible get us a 2C.    Beside we are talking culture change. 

Next year that leaves us with Dahlin, Bogo, Montour,  Pilut and Borgen.   Would be nice to get some more size and toughness back there. 

Why do you want Bogo back.  What does he contribute at either end of the ice? He adds very little offensively and his defense is often suspect at best.  He was better this season only because he actually played most of the season.  He has an A on his jersey, but what leadership has he shown.  At least with Risto he adds offense and if we get him the right partner, we can improve his D.  Considering age and contract size, I’d rather keep Risto.  That said I agree that Risto has the most trade value.

[dudacek]

Doesn’t Bogosian play the hardest minutes outside of Risto? Isn’t he our best penalty killer?

Haven’t our goals against gone up since he got hurt? Hasn’t the PK dramatically died?

19 points puts him on the middle of the pack for NHL defencemen and he doesn’t get PP time. He’s among the biggest and most physical players on a soft team and he skates just fine.

He’s overpaid, sure, but he’s a real NHL defenceman. He’s nowhere near the most needed upgrades on this roster.

27/29/8 with him in the lineup,  4/9/2 without.

[GASabresIUFAN]

12 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Doesn’t Bogosian play the hardest minutes outside of Risto? Isn’t he our best penalty killer?

Haven’t our goals against gone up since he got hurt? Hasn’t the PK dramatically died?

19 points puts him on the middle of the pack for NHL defencemen and he doesn’t get PP time. He’s among the biggest and most physical players on a soft team and he skates just fine.

He’s overpaid, sure, but he’s a real NHL defenceman. He’s nowhere near the most needed upgrades on this roster.

27/29/8 with him in the lineup,  4/9/2 without.

So he is the best of a terrible lot.  At best he is a bottom pairing D who gets lost in his own zone and makes terrible decisions with puck.  Yeah!.  He is getting paid to be a top 4 D and has been out played by Jordie Benn who gets paid 1.1 mill.  He needs to be shown the door. Unfortunately for us no one wants him at his contract level and we are likely stuck with him for another year.

Edited April 1, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

18 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Here's my uneducated take.

In football you can come up with a gameplan that will work for a while. Eventually some team figures out what you're doing and finds a way to defend it.

Good coaches can adjust. Bad coaches can't. Housley blew his wad during the win streak and has nothing to counterpunch with.

 

Ding ding we have a winner. 

[Formerly Allan in MD]

2 hours ago, Believer said:

It’s apparent the players don’t like Housley’s system... They either don’t understand how to execute it as a group on the ice... or they quit on it and are playing their own game... It is a complete fail... Housley has to go... Botterill needs to hire a firebrand who can motivate this bunch of coddled underachievers... Botterill is on the dime... Pegulas need to demand results from him or hire a hockey czar to supervise the guy...

This raises the question of whether Housley actually has a system.  Rex Ryan, when he "coached" the Bills, supposedly had a system.  But no one could figure it out.  Whatever Housley has, clearly no one can figure it out as well or it's simply unworkable.  The thought of even consideration of Phil being around another year is indeed frightening, as it was with Rex after he revealed his ineptitude.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Why do you want Bogo back.  What does he contribute at either end of the ice? He adds very little offensively and his defense is often suspect at best.  He was better this season only because he actually played most of the season.  He has an A on his jersey, but what leadership has he shown.  At least with Risto he adds offense and if we get him the right partner, we can improve his D.  Considering age and contract size, I’d rather keep Risto.  That said I agree that Risto has the most trade value.

I thought Bogo was playing very well up through December and so was Risto.  I liked that Bogo showed leadership and would at least answer for the team if things got out of control.  At least he did right up to the Florida game, then no one answered for the mugging that Skinner took.  

I think Bogo had a good season and a much better season than Risto.  Given Bogo's age and contract we are not going to get much.  If we are looking to trade for a 2C Risto is the only player that could command that.  Either that or find a free agent which has not been a good route for this team ever. 

 

 

[gilbert11]

On 3/31/2019 at 5:50 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Look, this team hasn't been able to score goals in a really really long time. This is why Bylsma tried a boring defensive system. The new regime has installed a speed oriented offensive game but when you stay on the perimeter and never score that falls apart and you become the joke you see on the ice now. So you want what? A shut down D coach to try to win 1-0 with our goalies? Really? 

It was a fragile system during the win streak, but when the games got tighter and our goaltending fell apart the wheels came off and there is no way to put them back on without scoring goals. 

During that November 10 game winning streak, 9 of the games were decided by a goal and 7 of those after regulation.  Four games went to OT and 3 were win in a shootout.  There wasn’t much margin for error.  It looked like the team, though, had figured out how to win close games.  As the season wore on, that not only balanced out but went in the opposite direction.

[Curt]

On 3/31/2019 at 9:35 PM, kas23 said:

Would you trade Jack for Jack (ie #1 pick in 2019 draft)? I just think Eichel needs a different environment. One where he isn’t relied on to carry a team. A team that’s already winning and he’s just a cog of the wheel. 

Any player, including Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid, E Karlsson or whoever, if relied on to consistently carry a team, will fail.  I don’t believe that is possible in the NHL.

Hughes would be no better at “carrying” the Sabres than Eichel is.  It takes a whole team to play good hockey.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Curtisp5286

[Weave]

2 hours ago, Curtisp5286 said:

Any player, including Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid, E Karlsson or whoever, if relied on to consistently carry a team, will fail.  I don’t believe that is possible in the NHL.

Hughes would be no better at “carrying” the Sabres than Eichel is.  It takes a whole team to play good hockey.

 

Another angle to look at this;  One of the rationales for moving ROR was that he didn't fit into the time line of the building process.  At what point do we start considering the same with 4-6 season vets currently on the team?

It's not now.  Is it next season if we don't progress?  The season after?

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Weave said:

 

Another angle to look at this;  One of the rationales for moving ROR was that he didn't fit into the time line of the building process.  At what point do we start considering the same with 4-6 season vets currently on the team?

It's not now.  Is it next season if we don't progress?  The season after?

It’s too far in the future to really be able to predict.  If the team is still terrible 3-4 seasons from now, I would say blowing it up could become a viable idea.

[Drunkard]

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 1:28 PM, Pimlach said:

I would keep Bogo.  The rest are tradable, including Nelson and Hunwick.  I hate giving up on Risto, but he is the only player there that could possible get us a 2C.    Beside we are talking culture change. 

Next year that leaves us with Dahlin, Bogo, Montour,  Pilut and Borgen.   Would be nice to get some more size and toughness back there. 

So you want to trade Ristolainen for a #2 center, then you want to acquire a defenseman with more size and toughness? Why not keep Ristolainen and trade one of the defenseman that doesn't have size or toughness?

I think this is basically doubling down on the O'Reilly trade. We traded away a great #2 center for scraps and now people want to trade arguably our best defenseman (depending on whether you think Dahlin is already better or isn't there yet) to try to fix that mistake. The sad thing is that the #2 center we theoretically trade Ristolainen for most likely won't be as good as O'Reilly so we're just going to down grade at 2 critical positions.

[mjd1001]

On 4/1/2019 at 3:56 PM, Pimlach said:

I thought Bogo was playing very well up through December and so was Risto.  I liked that Bogo showed leadership and would at least answer for the team if things got out of control.  At least he did right up to the Florida game, then no one answered for the mugging that Skinner took.  

I think Bogo had a good season and a much better season than Risto.  Given Bogo's age and contract we are not going to get much.  If we are looking to trade for a 2C Risto is the only player that could command that.  Either that or find a free agent which has not been a good route for this team ever. 

 

 

I agree with a lot of this on Bogo.

In an ideal world, I'd want the d-corp to be structured where you have one good skating, good moving, good passing offensive D-man paired with a stay-at-home type D-man.  I like Bogo as the stay-at-home type (I think he does a decent  job at that). It is a bonus he has the ABILITY (but not the mindset) to be the offensive guy too.

When healthy, I really like his as the #2 pairing stay-at-home guy.  Get him about 20 minutes of ice time per game...not to mention he is probably the best/most reliable penalty killing D-man on the roster right now.

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, Drunkard said:

So you want to trade Ristolainen for a #2 center, then you want to acquire a defenseman with more size and toughness? Why not keep Ristolainen and trade one of the defenseman that doesn't have size or toughness?

I think this is basically doubling down on the O'Reilly trade. We traded away a great #2 center for scraps and now people want to trade arguably our best defenseman (depending on whether you think Dahlin is already better or isn't there yet) to try to fix that mistake. The sad thing is that the #2 center we theoretically trade Ristolainen for most likely won't be as good as O'Reilly so we're just going to down grade at 2 critical positions.

Read my post.  I said I hate giving up Risto but he is only piece that can get us  a real 2C.    

Also, we are in much better shape at defense than we are at center.  We still have Dahlin, Bogo, McCabe, Montour and young talent in Pilut and Borgen. 

We only have 1 good center and only 3 legit top 3 forwards (one is a free agent).  So either we trade for a 2C or we try our luck at free agents, which has not been a great way to build for us.