Has a team ever led the NHL in points in late November then finished in the Bottom 5?

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, JJFIVEOH said:

Because they played like they actually gave a damn. It's painful to watch a team twice as talented as the tank teams with a win percentage almost equal to the teams that were built to fail. 

 

I get the second half of that, but the first half is wrong.

Stafford, Myers, Leino, Hodgson, McBain, Omark, Grigorenko, Zadorov, Ehrhoff, Stewart, Meszaros, Benoit... the tank was stuffed with players just collecting a paycheque like no Sabre team in history. They went in to every game expecting to lose.

This Sabres team put more effort into the ten games after the streak than that bunch did all season.

 

[Thorny]

On 3/24/2019 at 3:18 PM, TrueBlueGED said:

I really struggle with this being a thing, and I suspect I'll have to argue against it until the team starts wining. The team has three top-6 forwards and 1 defenseman who belongs on the top pair (who is 18), and somehow it's their fault? Not that we're missing 4 parts of a useful middle-6 or that the coach rolls out a horrible defenseman (defensively) as Drew Doughty? That's just a real tough sell to me. 

The team has 5 top-9 forwards (4 depending how you feel about Rodrigues), 1 top-9 center, and Vlad Sobotka being relied upon to contribute. And somehow it's the fault of our best players that they can't drag half a roster of corpses to respectability. The league as a whole has had an explosion of talent recently, which means it's harder than ever for the few to carry the many. It doesn't matter if our top line regularly wins its match-up if the other 3 lines regularly lose theirs. 

Auston Matthews is having a season nearly identical to Jack, and he even went through a Skinner-esque 12 game goal drought at one point. It didn't matter. Why? Because that team still had Tavares, Marner, Jounsson, Kadri, etc. to carry the offensive load. Our stars hit a slump and it's pure death because there's nobody else. 

And conversely, McDavid has 108 points, and look at Edmonton. Jack CAN'T carry this team to the playoffs. 

I can't blame our few good players for our record, but I do blame a coach who can't maximize what we do have, and the GM who put this roster together. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Thorny

[Thorny]

15 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Whether or not we end up with a top 5 pick, does it really matter that we had a good run early in the season?  

It's pretty clear we need more talent and more depth.  We are a mediocre team with mediocre D play and goaltending and no depth at forward.  We are what the standings say we are.  

 

So we aren't mediocre, then. 

[That Aud Smell]

On 3/24/2019 at 11:42 AM, dudacek said:

Are these players intrinsically flawed and incapable of being a core? 

It's a tempting thing to think, I admit.

On 3/24/2019 at 2:29 PM, Weave said:

I've inferred this thought in the past.  I'm genuinely concerned that it may be the case.

And if they are, I think fault is on the team.  We didn't provide the right environment for their development.  And I've posted my thoughts about that enough times that I won't bother to do it again.  IMO it is an inherent flaw in the path they chose.

Like I said: Tempting.

On 3/24/2019 at 4:18 PM, TrueBlueGED said:

I really struggle with this being a thing, and I suspect I'll have to argue against it until the team starts wining. The team has three top-6 forwards and 1 defenseman who belongs on the top pair (who is 18), and somehow it's their fault? 

<>

Auston Matthews is having a season nearly identical to Jack, and he even went through a Skinner-esque 12 game goal drought at one point. It didn't matter. Why? Because that team still had Tavares, Marner, Jounsson, Kadri, etc. to carry the offensive load. Our stars hit a slump and it's pure death because there's nobody else. 

This is a good post - especially this part (I saw some charts on this point recently, and it was amazing how closely their games have resembled each other). Anyhoo -- I come back to the touchstone of something along the lines of: Blaming the team's best players for the team's struggles is folly. The team sucks because it lacks proper depth, not because it's best players can't shoulder the entire load.

20 minutes ago, Thorny said:

And conversely, McDavid has 108 points, and look at Edmonton. Jack CAN'T carry this team to the playoffs. 

I can't blame our few good players for our record, but I do blame a coach who can't maximize what we do have, and the GM who put this roster together. 

Word.

[Thorny]

On 3/24/2019 at 10:42 AM, dudacek said:

Are these players intrinsically flawed and incapable of being a core? 

Perhaps, as a group.

As individuals, no. 

It's all about mix and the team as a whole.

ROR, apparently, couldn't be part of a successful core here,  but he seems fine over there.

Couldn't win with Kessel. Except in Pittsburgh. 

And so forth.

[Thorny]

On 3/24/2019 at 3:18 PM, TrueBlueGED said:

I really struggle with this being a thing, and I suspect I'll have to argue against it until the team starts wining. The team has three top-6 forwards and 1 defenseman who belongs on the top pair (who is 18), and somehow it's their fault? Not that we're missing 4 parts of a useful middle-6 or that the coach rolls out a horrible defenseman (defensively) as Drew Doughty? That's just a real tough sell to me. 

The team has 5 top-9 forwards (4 depending how you feel about Rodrigues), 1 top-9 center, and Vlad Sobotka being relied upon to contribute. And somehow it's the fault of our best players that they can't drag half a roster of corpses to respectability. The league as a whole has had an explosion of talent recently, which means it's harder than ever for the few to carry the many. It doesn't matter if our top line regularly wins its match-up if the other 3 lines regularly lose theirs. 

Auston Matthews is having a season nearly identical to Jack, and he even went through a Skinner-esque 12 game goal drought at one point. It didn't matter. Why? Because that team still had Tavares, Marner, Jounsson, Kadri, etc. to carry the offensive load. Our stars hit a slump and it's pure death because there's nobody else. 

Was thinking about this. Isn't scoring WAY up this season across the board? The leading goal scorer has a whopping 48 goals.

It's all the other tiers scoring more. On most teams.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Thorny

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

Anyhoo -- I come back to the touchstone of something along the lines of: Blaming the team's best players for the team's struggles is folly. The team sucks because it lacks proper depth, not because it's best players can't shoulder the entire load.

 

 

52 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Perhaps, as a group. As individuals, no. It's all about mix and the team as a whole.

ROR, apparently, couldn't be part of a successful core here,  but he seems fine over there.

Couldn't win with Kessel. Except in Pittsburgh. And so forth.

Thanks gentlemen for keeping me strong.

In a season that seems to have wreaked more havoc on Sabrespace than even the tank, it's nice to see a few of our stalwarts continuing to make the board worthwhile.

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

 

Thanks gentlemen for keeping me strong.

In a season that seems to have wreaked more havoc on Sabrespace than even the tank, it's nice to see a few of our stalwarts continuing to make the board worthwhile.

 

[SwampD]

11 hours ago, Radar said:

Please tell me you're kidding.......Please!

His winning streak was 13 games.

[inkman]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

 

He didn't say stale worts

[JJFIVEOH]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

 

I get the second half of that, but the first half is wrong.

Stafford, Myers, Leino, Hodgson, McBain, Omark, Grigorenko, Zadorov, Ehrhoff, Stewart, Meszaros, Benoit... the tank was stuffed with players just collecting a paycheque like no Sabre team in history. They went in to every game expecting to lose.

This Sabres team put more effort into the ten games after the streak than that bunch did all season.

 

I watched the tank teams, they were fun because they had zero talent but lots of heart. It pains me to watch the current Sabres, knowing they have tons more talent and still can't win on a higher level than the tank teams. The "bang for the buck" factor. They sucked then and they suck now. Only difference is they sucked back then because they really did suck. This team as they sit is borderline playoff bound. Yet, they aren't. 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

4 hours ago, Thorny said:

And conversely, McDavid has 108 points, and look at Edmonton. Jack CAN'T carry this team to the playoffs. 

I can't blame our few good players for our record, but I do blame a coach who can't maximize what we do have, and the GM who put this roster together. 

Just want to run a few things by you and I"m just asking for your opinion.

We are becoming the Edmonton of the east, changing GM's, Coaches, the tanks, rosters, systems, trying everything possible to also change the final outcome. Neither seemingly successful and almost mirroring each other.

They changed GM's and we've done the same.....I know, Chiarelli.

They changed coaches and we did too....difference being that they hire very experienced coaches and even tried the "middle of season" change which some people here are willing to do next year if we get off to a bad start 

Both teams have tried different types of coaches with different styles and different levels of experience.

The "mirroring" is the rosters.....McDavid/ Draisaitl/ RNH.....Eichel/ Skinner/ Reinhart, they seem to have the upper hand as far as the top two having almost 70pts more than ours. From there....Nurse/Dahlin....Chaisson/ Risto....beyond this point it looks in our favor a little more.

With all these similarities along with the standings between the two at a minimal amount, the biggest difference seems like the coaching. They have very experienced coaches that have been proven successful......which brings me to a couple questions.

Do you also blame Edmonton's issues on the coaching? GM? Ownership? or the players? If you blame the coaching does this not become the "case" to just keep Housley because changing coaches (even in the middle of the season) didn't prove to help Edmonton so why should we believe it would help us either? Or are we hoping that we somehow get lucky sometime before 2030 by constantly changing the coach and catching up with the odds that we finally find the "right" one. I would rather fire PH now or give him another full season no matter what. The difference would ultimately be only a 1/2 season (based on his being fired 1/2 way thru next season). This reasoning brings on some other questions....

What to do.....and options. Do you fire Phil at seasons end? If you do, the question becomes what style of play does JBotts want to run and that will tell us whether or not Phil's system was what Jason wanted to do when he hire PH or if he let Phil make that decision and agreed to build the team to fit Housley.

If you bring Housley back for next year, then Botts needs to continue building the team to fit Phil's system. If he does this, I think it severely limits your ability to fire him mid-season based on available coaches capable of running the system or being able to change the roster to fit the new coach mid-way in the season. And will that firing be of any use....it didn't work in Edmonton with experienced and successful coaches (McLellan/ Hitchcock). 

McLellan had good success with power plays previously but in Edmonton I think they were bad one year then great in the playoff year , and then not so good again.....sound familiar? If you blame the roster or players then why would it be different here. Why would it be on Phil? Hitchcock is a quick turnaround short term type coach that has shown success with seemingly every team BUT Edmonton, at least so far. Why would anyone think a coach similarly would make a difference here in "Hockey Heaven"?

Does JBotts fire Phil at season end and change his thinking about systems and coaches so he can adjust what he looks for in the draft, trades, or FA? I think IF he'even thinks he might have to fire Phil at some point (either now,or during next season)he would need to consider these things and is best off doing it now, make the adjustments, and get off to a fresh start next season, or play the next season out as it is now and take the risk.

These are the questions that I pose to you (and everyone else). They are just my thoughts and opinions and I welcome yours. Please don't take any offense to any of this( if I referred to some things that suggest they were directed at you specifically it is just generalization and not meant to be a "you said this" sort of thing).

If we can answer these questions, then maybe we can find a solution.....or maybe we just come to the conclusion that we are destined to suck.

 

 

[calti]

6 hours ago, Thorny said:

So we aren't mediocre, then. 

this team is tied with edmonton as the worst team in hockey. both teams have 3 excellent players and a bunch of softies.

[calti]

15 hours ago, Radar said:

Please tell me you're kidding.......Please!

he had the sabres winning before hasek gave him the boot. he had the islanders playing great hockey when he coached for them. he had our tank team playing with pride.

he was never given a real chance.

16 hours ago, nucci said:

Most overrated coach in NHL history

he always had his teams playing hard and with the pride instilled in him by his native ancestors.

[Radar]

7 hours ago, calti said:

he had the sabres winning before hasek gave him the boot. he had the islanders playing great hockey when he coached for them. he had our tank team playing with pride.

he was never given a real chance.

he always had his teams playing hard and with the pride instilled in him by his native ancestors.

Okay whatever. 

[JJFIVEOH]

2 hours ago, Radar said:

Okay whatever. 

He's right, you know. 

[Radar]

2 hours ago, JJFIVEOH said:

He's right, you know. 

If you think so fine that's your prerogative. I just don't think Nolan is a good NHL coach. If he was he'd be coaching. He's had his chances. My hunch is he's not a great employee and friction follows him everywhere he goes. Just my opinion.

[JJFIVEOH]

4 hours ago, Radar said:

If you think so fine that's your prerogative. I just don't think Nolan is a good NHL coach. If he was he'd be coaching. He's had his chances. My hunch is he's not a great employee and friction follows him everywhere he goes. Just my opinion.

He had the same win percentage as Softie Phil, with half the talent. 

So, there's that. 

[nfreeman]

@JJFIVEOH -- you are of course welcome to your opinions, and to like other teams, and it's hard to take issue with criticizing the Sabres after yet another crappy season, but I will ask you to reconsider your avatar.  It's pretty much trolling to have another team's logo as your avatar on a sports message board, and pretty much guaranteed to increase the testiness around here.

[JJFIVEOH]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

@JJFIVEOH -- you are of course welcome to your opinions, and to like other teams, and it's hard to take issue with criticizing the Sabres after yet another crappy season, but I will ask you to reconsider your avatar.  It's pretty much trolling to have another team's logo as your avatar on a sports message board, and pretty much guaranteed to increase the testiness around here.

Not trolling. Just supporting my local team. The Sabres are the laughing stock of the entire league. I can't deal with that any more. I'm a diehard Sabres fan, but if you all can't accept me supporting another team heading into the playoffs........... I'm sorry. It's not my problem. 

[nfreeman]

11 minutes ago, JJFIVEOH said:

Not trolling. Just supporting my local team. The Sabres are the laughing stock of the entire league. I can't deal with that any more. I'm a diehard Sabres fan, but if you all can't accept me supporting another team heading into the playoffs........... I'm sorry. It's not my problem. 

No one is saying you can't support another team.  Making it your avatar on a Sabres board is waving it in everyone's face in a trollish way.

[SwampD]

2 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

No one is saying you can't support another team.  Making it your avatar on a Sabres board is waving it in everyone's face in a trollish way.

C’mon. Let him show his true colors.

[LTS]

13 hours ago, SwampD said:

C’mon. Let him show his true colors.

 

I agree.  I don't care about his avatar.  I've addressed him in another thread on his purpose though.

[JJFIVEOH]

16 hours ago, nfreeman said:

No one is saying you can't support another team.  Making it your avatar on a Sabres board is waving it in everyone's face in a trollish way.

I'm sorry you feel that way. When my team gives me something to cheer about, I'll support them 100%, and my avatar will show accordingly. 

[Claude_Verret]

On 3/26/2019 at 7:54 PM, JJFIVEOH said:

Not trolling. Just supporting my local team. The Sabres are the laughing stock of the entire league. I can't deal with that any more. I'm a diehard Sabres fan, but if you all can't accept me supporting another team heading into the playoffs........... I'm sorry. It's not my problem. 

 

8 hours ago, JJFIVEOH said:

I'm sorry you feel that way. When my team gives me something to cheer about, I'll support them 100%, and my avatar will show accordingly. 

You can support whatever team you want, whenever you choose, but based on these statements I'd call you a fair weather fan rather than die hard.