Risto said it's time for him to go?

[darksabre]

1 minute ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Unfair to players, sure. But teams? They're probably thrilled they don't have to use a valuable protection slot on players with something as mundane as a limited NTC.

Okay, fine. Just the players. It sucks for them to have negotiated a NTC that isn't actually an NTC when an expansion draft happens.

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Well, I think you can probably attach a boat anchor to Dahlin and he'll be able to make it work, even this early in his career. Without looking at a Risto replacement, my lineup would look something like this:

Dahlin-XXX | Pilut-Montour | McCabe-Nelson

The list of UFA's isn't great, but I bet you could get a Stralman on a reasonable contract to plug in..figure if you take the working parts of his and Bogosian's bodies, you could create a  frankenanchor to attach to Dahlin for a year.

As long as Risto is actually replaced should we move him, I'm good with dealing him (and this lineup) as well. 

[Doohickie]

2 hours ago, Drunkard said:

Plus he doesn't bitch and moan

Did you see his locker cleanout interview?  He looked totally dejected.  He talked about "change is inevitable" as if he expected to get traded.

Of course the change that came isn't what he expected, and who knows?   He might be rejuvenated under RFK.  But if he's gone, he's gone.  If he gets traded, it better not be a ROR type trade.  They better get value for him, or try to let Krueger fix him if they can't.

1 hour ago, TrueBlueGED said:

Do you want to spend $5.4M on a player who needs saving? 

If he can be saved?  Sure.

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

We already have Bogo for this season soooo

Yes, and he played much better than previous seasons, quite possibly because of the hip surgery.  Now that the other side is done he might actually be good for a few more years.  There are lots of problems on this team. Bogo isn't one.

[Taro T]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

I’m in the “so we lose a middle roster player, big deal” camp. 

Very likely to be protected: Jack, Sam, Jeff, Casey, Kyle, Rasmus, Rasmus, Brandon, Linus

Can protect 2 more forwards, or 1 more D depending on who develops. Worst case scenario looks like losing a McCabe-level guy, unless something unexpectedly good happens like all three of Tage, Alex and Victor blossom.

 

Okposo has a NMC?!?!?

That seals it; he has to be bought out with a compliance buyout after the lockout.

[Sabel79]

1 minute ago, Taro T said:

Okposo has a NMC?!?!?

That seals it; he has to be bought out with a compliance buyout after the lockout.

He has a limited NTC, 15 teams I think.  

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, Sabel79 said:

He has a limited NTC, 15 teams I think.  

:censored:

[Drunkard]

13 hours ago, Sabel79 said:

He has a limited NTC, 15 teams I think.  

I think a 15 team NTC means we don't have to waste a protection spot on him.

[Drunkard]

16 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Did you see his locker cleanout interview?  He looked totally dejected.  He talked about "change is inevitable" as if he expected to get traded.

Of course the change that came isn't what he expected, and who knows?   He might be rejuvenated under RFK.  But if he's gone, he's gone.  If he gets traded, it better not be a ROR type trade.  They better get value for him, or try to let Krueger fix him if they can't.

If he can be saved?  Sure.

Maybe "change is inevitable" was a reference to Housley getting canned. We don't know for sure.

Even if he was dejected, the guy was thrown into the deep end as basically a rookie and despite several coaching changes he's been left there because we've literally had nobody else even close to competent enough to replace him even though he struggles in the role. 6 years of that has got to weigh heavily on anyone.

Can you imagine how pissed off everyone would be if they did that to Dahlin? They'd be reading Botterill the riot act, not trying to parse his end of season interviews into a justification for running him out of town the way they did to "he who won't be named".

It drives me nuts that people want to run him out of town without a proven replacement already on the roster. Here's a novel idea, how about finding someone better than him, before they run him out of town? Sure they brought in Montour but he seems much more of a puck mover than the stay at home, put him in against the other team's best guys type of dman. The way to build quality depth isn't removing your best players and hoping the replacements are better. Maybe if they brought in people who could actually push him down the depth chart, they'd still have him available if his replacement shows he can't handle it either.

[LGR4GM]

43 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

Maybe "change is inevitable" was a reference to Housley getting canned. We don't know for sure.

Even if he was dejected, the guy was thrown into the deep end as basically a rookie and despite several coaching changes he's been left there because we've literally had nobody else even close to competent enough to replace him even though he struggles in the role. 6 years of that has got to weigh heavily on anyone.

Can you imagine how pissed off everyone would be if they did that to Dahlin? They'd be reading Botterill the riot act, not trying to parse his end of season interviews into a justification for running him out of town the way they did to "he who won't be named".

It drives me nuts that people want to run him out of town without a proven replacement already on the roster. Here's a novel idea, how about finding someone better than him, before they run him out of town? Sure they brought in Montour but he seems much more of a puck mover than the stay at home, put him in against the other team's best guys type of dman. The way to build quality depth isn't removing your best players and hoping the replacements are better. Maybe if they brought in people who could actually push him down the depth chart, they'd still have him available if his replacement shows he can't handle it either.

Risto would be our maybe 3rd or 4th best defender at this stage. I don't want to run him out of town, I want to leverage him in a trade. If I can get Foote, JT Miller, and something for him, that is actually improving us. Sure I have to take on Callahan for a year but whatever. 

[Drunkard]

44 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Risto would be our maybe 3rd or 4th best defender at this stage. I don't want to run him out of town, I want to leverage him in a trade. If I can get Foote, JT Miller, and something for him, that is actually improving us. Sure I have to take on Callahan for a year but whatever. 

I'll believe he's our 3rd or 4th best defender when somebody else is playing his 24 minutes a night instead of him. Maybe when they can show over a season that he's that far down the depth chart it might make sense to move him, but definitely not before hand. It would be smarter to make sure Montour or whomever they choose to slot ahead of him on the right hand side is capable of handling the minutes with better metrics before we ship him off. At least that's how I see it.

[TrueBlueGED]

1 hour ago, Drunkard said:

Maybe "change is inevitable" was a reference to Housley getting canned. We don't know for sure.

Even if he was dejected, the guy was thrown into the deep end as basically a rookie and despite several coaching changes he's been left there because we've literally had nobody else even close to competent enough to replace him even though he struggles in the role. 6 years of that has got to weigh heavily on anyone.

Can you imagine how pissed off everyone would be if they did that to Dahlin? They'd be reading Botterill the riot act, not trying to parse his end of season interviews into a justification for running him out of town the way they did to "he who won't be named".

It drives me nuts that people want to run him out of town without a proven replacement already on the roster. Here's a novel idea, how about finding someone better than him, before they run him out of town? Sure they brought in Montour but he seems much more of a puck mover than the stay at home, put him in against the other team's best guys type of dman. The way to build quality depth isn't removing your best players and hoping the replacements are better. Maybe if they brought in people who could actually push him down the depth chart, they'd still have him available if his replacement shows he can't handle it either.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting trading Risto for a 7th round pick just to be rid of him. I think there's a reasonable chance there's a GM out there who values him as you (and others) do, which means I can get more in a trade for him than he brings personally. 

To the second bold, here's the thing: Montour isn't a stay-at-home Dman who can match up against other top players and shut the down...but neither is Risto. So if your concern with trading Risto is it leaves that role vacant...that role is vacant even with Risto here.

[Drunkard]

2 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

To be clear, I'm not suggesting trading Risto for a 7th round pick just to be rid of him. I think there's a reasonable chance there's a GM out there who values him as you (and others) do, which means I can get more in a trade for him than he brings personally. 

To the second bold, here's the thing: Montour isn't a stay-at-home Dman who can match up against other top players and shut the down...but neither is Risto. So if your concern with trading Risto is it leaves that role vacant...that role is vacant even with Risto here.

My concern is making good the enemy of great. If you move Ristolainen and Montour can't handle it you ruin 2 spots on the right hand side because not only do you have a giant hole where Ristolainen was, but then you essential ruin Montour's contributions by giving him a role he isn't suited for either.

[LGR4GM]

4 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

I'll believe he's our 3rd or 4th best defender when somebody else is playing his 24 minutes a night instead of him. Maybe when they can show over a season that he's that far down the depth chart it might make sense to move him, but definitely not before hand. It would be smarter to make sure Montour or whomever they choose to slot ahead of him on the right hand side is capable of handling the minutes with better metrics before we ship him off. At least that's how I see it.

Why? I know risto isn't capable of handling those minutes. So that puts him as your 2nd pairing RHD except that is where Montour slots. SO now he is your 3rd pairing RHD who gets pp2 time. 

If he was playing his 24minutes of tough hockey well, sure I would agree but he plays it poorly so he isn't filling the role. That bumps him to 2nd pairing. Okay, so who is better Risto or Montour? I personally would guess Montour. 

2 minutes ago, Drunkard said:

My concern is making good the enemy of great. If you move Ristolainen and Montour can't handle it you ruin 2 spots on the right hand side because not only do you have a giant hole where Ristolainen was, but then you essential ruin Montour's contributions by giving him a role he isn't suited for either.

If Montour can't be the 2nd line RHD than I don't want him anyways. 

[Curt]

1 hour ago, Drunkard said:

Even if he was dejected, the guy was thrown into the deep end as basically a rookie and despite several coaching changes he's been left there because we've literally had nobody else even close to competent enough to replace him even though he struggles in the role. 6 years of that has got to weigh heavily on anyone.

This isn’t really true.  He was eased in to an extent.  He wasn’t thrown into a top pair 25min role until he was 21 and in his 3rd NHL season.  The first two seasons, he did not lead the team in ice time.

[#freejame]

24 minutes ago, Curtisp5286 said:

This isn’t really true.  He was eased in to an extent.  He wasn’t thrown into a top pair 25min role until he was 21 and in his 3rd NHL season.  The first two seasons, he did not lead the team in ice time.

Very few 21 year old defensemen even play in the NHL, yet alone get 25 minutes a night. We’re going to trade Risto, he’s going to slot in somewhere on their top-4 and be a stud. Everyone is going to ask “why didn’t he do that here” and bad mouth him. People expecting Montour to have more success on the top pairing than Risto are, in my mind, delusional. They’re both 3/4 guys who don’t play great defense. The only return I would be happy with is something like liger said where we get Foote, Miller and Callahan (boooo) in return. 

[dudacek]

I know it ain’t going to happen, but I’d like to see a consensus definition of some hockey terms.

For example, what does “1st pairing defenceman” mean?

Does it mean a guy who is capable of playing regularly against the top players in the league, and Shut them down?

A guy who can anchor a PP, push transition and score 40-plus points?

A guy who is arguably one of the best 62 (soon to be 64) blue liners in hockey?

A guy who can play in all situations?

An elite, franchise defenceman?

It would certainly make some of these conversations easier.

[Curt]

17 minutes ago, #freejame said:

Very few 21 year old defensemen even play in the NHL, yet alone get 25 minutes a night. We’re going to trade Risto, he’s going to slot in somewhere on their top-4 and be a stud. Everyone is going to ask “why didn’t he do that here” and bad mouth him. People expecting Montour to have more success on the top pairing than Risto are, in my mind, delusional. They’re both 3/4 guys who don’t play great defense. The only return I would be happy with is something like liger said where we get Foote, Miller and Callahan (boooo) in return. 

I didn’t say he should have been ready for 25mins per game at age 21.  He has never and probably will never be ready for that role.  I was just clarifying that he didn’t actually get tossed into that role as a rookie.

 

[Curt]

41 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I know it ain’t going to happen, but I’d like to see a consensus definition of some hockey terms.

For example, what does “1st pairing defenceman” mean?

Does it mean a guy who is capable of playing regularly against the top players in the league, and Shut them down?

A guy who can anchor a PP, push transition and score 40-plus points?

A guy who is arguably one of the best 62 (soon to be 64) blue liners in hockey?

A guy who can play in all situations?

An elite, franchise defenceman?

It would certainly make some of these conversations easier.

One of the 62 overall best defensemen in the league, and probably someone who can be effective at ES, PP or PK.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Curtisp5286

[LGR4GM]

I would actually say 1 of the top 50 defenders in the league. There are easily 12 first pairing guys who don't belong there. 

[nfreeman]

If nothing else, a top-pairing Dman should be 1st or 2nd in Dmen minutes on his team.

[Broken Ankles]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Why? I know risto isn't capable of handling those minutes. So that puts him as your 2nd pairing RHD except that is where Montour slots. SO now he is your 3rd pairing RHD who gets pp2 time. 

If he was playing his 24minutes of tough hockey well, sure I would agree but he plays it poorly so he isn't filling the role. That bumps him to 2nd pairing. Okay, so who is better Risto or Montour? I personally would guess Montour. 

If Montour can't be the 2nd line RHD than I don't want him anyways. 

Well stated.  He’s expendable b/c of those reasons.  

[Drunkard]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Why? I know risto isn't capable of handling those minutes. So that puts him as your 2nd pairing RHD except that is where Montour slots. SO now he is your 3rd pairing RHD who gets pp2 time. 

If he was playing his 24minutes of tough hockey well, sure I would agree but he plays it poorly so he isn't filling the role. That bumps him to 2nd pairing. Okay, so who is better Risto or Montour? I personally would guess Montour. 

If Montour can't be the 2nd line RHD than I don't want him anyways. 

Ok, so what's the solution? Someone will be playing top pair on the right hand side no matter how overmatched they are so it might as well be him until we have an actual upgrade on the roster.

Ristolainen isn't ideal there by any stretch but currently the only other options are Montour, Bogosian until his next injury, or somebody like Nelson or Borgen. 

If you have a 5 playing in a spot where you need an 8, you try to find an 8 or at least someone better than that 5. You don't get rid of your 5 without a replacement and wind up having to stick somebody even worse in that spot. 

If you trade Ristolainen you now have Montour on the top pair, not on the second pair where he's set up to succeed. If he can't handle it then you are much worse off because not only do you still have a problem with your top pair d but you open up a hole on your second pair d because now Montour is stuck playing over his head on the top pair. 

Edited June 12, 2019 by Drunkard

[Drunkard]

27 minutes ago, Broken Ankles said:

Well stated.  He’s expendable b/c of those reasons.  

He's not expendable until you have someone better to replace him. If you don't have a good first line center, you don't just get rid of the guy you have playing first line center because he's struggling. You try to find an upgrade so you can bump that guy down to the second line. 

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, TrueBlueGED said:

To be clear, I'm not suggesting trading Risto for a 7th round pick just to be rid of him. I think there's a reasonable chance there's a GM out there who values him as you (and others) do, which means I can get more in a trade for him than he brings personally. 

To the second bold, here's the thing: Montour isn't a stay-at-home Dman who can match up against other top players and shut the down...but neither is Risto. So if your concern with trading Risto is it leaves that role vacant...that role is vacant even with Risto here.

Maybe so, but the overall aptitude of the D takes a hit if Risto is moved, I don't buy into the notion it's "addition by subtraction" with Nelson slotting into pair 2. 

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Why? I know risto isn't capable of handling those minutes. So that puts him as your 2nd pairing RHD except that is where Montour slots. SO now he is your 3rd pairing RHD who gets pp2 time. 

If he was playing his 24minutes of tough hockey well, sure I would agree but he plays it poorly so he isn't filling the role. That bumps him to 2nd pairing. Okay, so who is better Risto or Montour? I personally would guess Montour. 

If Montour can't be the 2nd line RHD than I don't want him anyways. 

Montour is our first pair RHD right now, isn't he?