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Sabres rebuild going nowhere.

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...and we play in the same league as Ottawa.  Oof.

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5 minutes ago, inkman said:

...and we play in the same league as Ottawa.  Oof.

Well, at least we have that going for us 😄

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4 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I'm not reading that.

It was sobering to read.  

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1 minute ago, Nitro60 said:

It was sobering to read.  

I have no desire to sober up.

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So, does this make it official?

Are we now the Edmonton Oilers of the Eastern Conference?

Me thinks there is solid evidence to support such.

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As always, you can't lump the current administration in with previous ones, you have to break it up. Murray really f'd things up cause all he could see was McDavid. If we still suck next year I think it's fair to say this lot is no better, but let's give them a fair chance to prove that wrong, it's only year 2.  

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This article is about a useful as those season previews.

Here are a couple I found quickly about the Sabres in 2005-6

https://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=114  (Sabres 78 pts 12th in the East)

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/tank/nhl/nhl2006.html  (Sabres 60 pts 13th in the East)

People can write anything they want, but that doesn't make it correct or insightful.

By the way.  I think this team is closer then that author and others realize.  IMHO the D is 4/6 (Montour, Pilut, Dahlin and McCabe) of where it needs to be and the forwards are 9/12 of what we need (Jack, Sam, Jeff, Sheary, Mitts, Erod, Z, KO (yes KO as a 3rd or 4th line depth scoring) and Olofsson.   If Tage develops, then it's 10.

I agree I putting some faith in guys like Pilut and Olofsson, but I think the faith is well placed.    

Edited by GASabresIUFAN
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4 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

So, does this make it official?

Are we now the Edmonton Oilers of the Eastern Conference?

Me thinks there is solid evidence to support such.

Not even, they at least made it to the second round of the playoffs recently

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Yea I am not reading it. The Sabres issue this season was pretty obvious. They have a coach who is an idiot. Their goaltending has been abysmal for 3 months. Hutton is almost in the 30's for sv% and Ullmark is in the 40's (10 games start minimum).  

You have a team that has a limit on talent because of a former GM being a moron. You then have a coach that can't maximize that talent because he doesn't understand simple things like Sobotka is bad, Erod is good, Scandella is a heaping pile of bad, Risto isn't a top pairing defender, and Reinhart should be on his own line away from Jack and Skinner.

Part of the goaltending is due to the terrible awareness and deployment of the defenders but they are also to blame. They have let in some stinky goals and far too often. Fix even one of these issues and you have a playoff team. 

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I disliked Murray alot, but this idea that he set the team back so much is false. Who did he give up that currently tearing up the league and would have been so much of an upgrade over what they currently have?

Everyone is blaming Murray but then praising Botterill, even after getting almost nothing for Kane and ROR.

This team is very similar to the Oilers, both teams have spent years 'rebuilding' and getting picks but cant put anything together to make them better.

Edited by apuszczalowski
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13 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

I disliked Murray alot, but this idea that he set the team back so much is false. Who did he give up that currently tearing up the league and would have been so much of an upgrade over what they currently have?

Everyone is blaming Murray but then praising Botterill, even after getting almost nothing for Kane and ROR.

This team is very similar to the Oilers, both teams have spent years 'rebuilding' and getting picks but cant put anything together to make them better.

I will take this one... 

Brock Boeser, Sebastian Aho in 2015. 

JT Compher, 2015. 

Nylander instead of Sergachev, 2016.

Brycen Martin over Brayden Point, 2014. (yes this one is a stretch but still)

 

This team is bad because during Murray's 3 years of running our draft he traded away the opportunity to draft 2 impact players and we got 3 years of ROR and 2 of Robin Lehner (barf on the Lehner trade). He traded Compher in that ROR deal, worked out great. We needed defenders in 2016 and Sergachev easily should have been the pick. We had no centers in 2014 and he took Karabacek and Martin before Brayden Point went off the board (okay this one is a bit of a stretch but, Murray annoyed me). 

You keep Compher, draft Boeser instead of taking on Lehner, pick up Aho instead of losing that pick in a trade, you draft Sergachev over Nylander and I just added 2 top 6 players, another top 9 player, and a top 4 defender to the team. Murray ***** this team sideways by gutting the prospect pool and failing to see that the team would lack depth if he did it. 

Botterill, has refused to gut the prospect pool. Made 2 very good trades in Skinner and Montour. The Kane deal was good, it is literally the price of a rental these days. The ROR trade was bad and I want to know why it happened. Of course if that deal is viewed as Montour, Thompson and 2 bags of trash for ROR, it looks a little less bad but that wasn't the trade so I won't give Bots that. Basically outside the ROR trade, Botterill has drafted well (it appears that way) and has traded well. The biggest issue I have right now with Botterill is his ROR trade. He thought Berglund was going to be the 2nd line center and that failed. Granted some of that was outside Botterill's control but still. 

 

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9 hours ago, inkman said:

...and we play in the same league as Ottawa.  Oof.

And Edmonton.

Double oof.

 

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8 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

This article is about a useful as those season previews.

Here are a couple I found quickly about the Sabres in 2005-6

https://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=114  (Sabres 78 pts 12th in the East)

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/tank/nhl/nhl2006.html  (Sabres 60 pts 13th in the East)

People can write anything they want, but that doesn't make it correct or insightful.

By the way.  I think this team is closer then that author and others realize.  IMHO the D is 4/6 (Montour, Pilut, Dahlin and McCabe) of where it needs to be and the forwards are 9/12 of what we need (Jack, Sam, Jeff, Sheary, Mitts, Erod, Z, KO (yes KO as a 3rd or 4th line depth scoring) and Olofsson.   If Tage develops, then it's 10.

I agree I putting some faith in guys like Pilut and Olofsson, but I think the faith is well placed.    

I would suggest your estimate of what is good enough is not close to being correct.

Unless you are trying to assemble a team that misses the playoffs each year. 

 

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8 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

This article is about a useful as those season previews.

Here are a couple I found quickly about the Sabres in 2005-6

https://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=114  (Sabres 78 pts 12th in the East)

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/tank/nhl/nhl2006.html  (Sabres 60 pts 13th in the East)

People can write anything they want, but that doesn't make it correct or insightful.

By the way.  I think this team is closer then that author and others realize.  IMHO the D is 4/6 (Montour, Pilut, Dahlin and McCabe) of where it needs to be and the forwards are 9/12 of what we need (Jack, Sam, Jeff, Sheary, Mitts, Erod, Z, KO (yes KO as a 3rd or 4th line depth scoring) and Olofsson.   If Tage develops, then it's 10.

I agree I putting some faith in guys like Pilut and Olofsson, but I think the faith is well placed.    

I noticed that you don't have Larry on the roster....are you putting any money on Asplund? He's coming along nice lately after some what of a slow start.

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2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I will take this one... 

Brock Boeser, Sebastian Aho in 2015. 

JT Compher, 2015. 

Nylander instead of Sergachev, 2016.

Brycen Martin over Brayden Point, 2014. (yes this one is a stretch but still)

 

This team is bad because during Murray's 3 years of running our draft he traded away the opportunity to draft 2 impact players and we got 3 years of ROR and 2 of Robin Lehner (barf on the Lehner trade). He traded Compher in that ROR deal, worked out great. We needed defenders in 2016 and Sergachev easily should have been the pick. We had no centers in 2014 and he took Karabacek and Martin before Brayden Point went off the board (okay this one is a bit of a stretch but, Murray annoyed me). 

You keep Compher, draft Boeser instead of taking on Lehner, pick up Aho instead of losing that pick in a trade, you draft Sergachev over Nylander and I just added 2 top 6 players, another top 9 player, and a top 4 defender to the team. Murray ***** this team sideways by gutting the prospect pool and failing to see that the team would lack depth if he did it. 

Botterill, has refused to gut the prospect pool. Made 2 very good trades in Skinner and Montour. The Kane deal was good, it is literally the price of a rental these days. The ROR trade was bad and I want to know why it happened. Of course if that deal is viewed as Montour, Thompson and 2 bags of trash for ROR, it looks a little less bad but that wasn't the trade so I won't give Bots that. Basically outside the ROR trade, Botterill has drafted well (it appears that way) and has traded well. The biggest issue I have right now with Botterill is his ROR trade. He thought Berglund was going to be the 2nd line center and that failed. Granted some of that was outside Botterill's control but still. 

 

Tou are making alot of assumptions on who they would have taken with the picks had they kept them and hindsight to know those players would have been the correct choice.

Botterill may have protected the prospect pool but how much down there should be untouchable? Prospects dont always have to be developed and kept on your team to be useful, they are bargaining chips too. Very few of their prospects are at a point where they look ready to step in and have a huge impact, and most of the ones not drafted #1 or #2 overall have barely looked like they belong in the NHL this year.

Botterill also managed to ice a team that was borderline historically bad, and then followed it up with a team that was only slightly better if you remove a fluke 10 game win streak from their season (that even they admitted was flukey).

Murray did what 90%+ of all GMs do, he collected picks and prospects, kept some and used others as bargaining chips. He didnt decimate the farm system, and not many of the ones he gave away have had huge impacts on their new team (or more of an impact then the guy they were traded for.) His problem was he overpaid just to get what he wanted and should have been able to get it for much less then he did.

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I mean, I had Boeser as the correct choice the very second the Lehner trade occurred. Aho is a little stretch but not much. Sergachev was easily the pick over Nylander. Even if Nylander blossoms (still very possible) Sergachev made more sense at the time. 

Brycen Martin over Point is wishful thinking but man, Murray had a lot of shots at getting Point. 

Edited by LGR4GM

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38 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

Botterill may have protected the prospect pool but how much down there should be untouchable? Prospects dont always have to be developed and kept on your team to be useful, they are bargaining chips too. Very few of their prospects are at a point where they look ready to step in and have a huge impact, and most of the ones not drafted #1 or #2 overall have barely looked like they belong in the NHL this year.

Botterill also managed to ice a team that was borderline historically bad, and then followed it up with a team that was only slightly better if you remove a fluke 10 game win streak from their season (that even they admitted was flukey).

Murray did what 90%+ of all GMs do, he collected picks and prospects, kept some and used others as bargaining chips. He didnt decimate the farm system, and not many of the ones he gave away have had huge impacts on their new team (or more of an impact then the guy they were traded for.) His problem was he overpaid just to get what he wanted and should have been able to get it for much less then he did.

Now for the rest. 

Botterill shouldn't have any picks drafted outside the first round ready to make the NHL. Next year, maybe but anything outside of the first is typically 3 years away. 

You can't just remove a 10 game streak. Close wins area almost always a little flukey. We don't get to just take out large stretches of the season. It happened. Then their goaltending and defense fell apart and it snowballed to now. 

He absolutely destroyed the farm system. Zadorov, Compher, 2 Firsts, 2 more 2nd rounders, all traded away. Those 2 firsts don't include Armia or Grigorenko that was just 2 first round picks we traded straight up. So by my count, 6 guys in 3 years were sent packing. That's a hard hit unless you draft really well, which Murray didn't. He was very average, better than Darcy but average. Botterill not trading all the firsts he acquired and holding onto some extra picks is wise. We need to build up the system so this never happens again. If we had done that at the 2015 draft, we would be a playoff team. 

 

I do want to add that you are correct about hindsight. I didn't mind what Murray did at the time. I learned my lesson though. You have to draft and develop well or it doesn't matter what else you do. 

Edited by LGR4GM
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6 hours ago, apuszczalowski said:

I disliked Murray alot, but this idea that he set the team back so much is false. Who did he give up that currently tearing up the league and would have been so much of an upgrade over what they currently have?

I think this was laid out pretty well in the Tim Murray's Revenge Thread, particularly in reference to this article:

https://wgr550.radio.com/articles/opinion/sabres-still-paying-sins-tim-murray

6 hours ago, apuszczalowski said:

Everyone is blaming Murray but then praising Botterill, even after getting almost nothing for Kane and ROR.

Kane wasn't signing here and there is validity to the addition by subtraction idea. I'm pretty sure ROR has to be the main guy and that was never going to work here. ROR is all about ROR. At this moment the trade has turned out less than expected because of the Bergland thing but I'll wait to see how good Montour turns out to be (if it's the St. Louis pick) and if we do anything with the money saved before passing final judgement on it. 

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3 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

 there is validity to the addition by subtraction idea.

Except when the mathematical proof didn't solve properly.

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To anyone saying "not reading it", it's basically just a summation of how bad the team has been, it's not much of an opinion piece. Didn't learn anything from it, but it's hardly offensive.

I suppose it lacking any new info is as good a reason as any to stay away, though.

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Being a fan of this team is like being in a loveless marriage. It's comfortable, it's what you know and it's miserable. The only satisfaction comes from getting back to the bare minimum of happiness. Not true happiness, just not misery. Satisfaction is only derived when some sort of facsimile of a healthy relationship is perceived. Its not real but for a fleeting moment you feel like you're normal. Then back to the misery. 

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15 minutes ago, inkman said:

Being a fan of this team is like being in a loveless marriage. It's comfortable, it's what you know and it's miserable. The only satisfaction comes from getting back to the bare minimum of happiness. Not true happiness, just not misery. Satisfaction is only derived when some sort of facsimile of a healthy relationship is perceived. Its not real but for a fleeting moment you feel like you're normal. Then back to the misery. 

 

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