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Tim Murray’s revenge


freester

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1 hour ago, Derrico said:

Ya I donno man.  You've had a hard on for the panthers for what seems like years now.  They also haven't done jack. 

Hardly. Sabres have always been my team. I followed the Panthers because they were my home team for 20+ years.

 

I can say one thing, they may not have had the talent to win, but they have much more heart than the Sabres. 

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33 minutes ago, 7+6=13 said:

It'll be interesting to see how JBot gets treated around here if he decides not to sign Skinner.  Which I think is very possible. 

It could be wrong, but all the talk I hear from everywhere suggests Skinner will be signed in due course. 

What I think will be interesting to follow is the remaining 19 games of the season.

Just how many more games are we going to lose?  Or to put it another way, how many more points are we going to get? 

I think we have a solid shot to finish at or below 78 points, which is the point total we had after the 2016/2017 season.  That's the point total that was the final nail in the coffin for both GMTM and Bylsma.

If Pegula pulled the trigger on those guys after 78 points in 2017, what might he do this year?!

Are things different now?  Not sure. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Kruppstahl said:

It could be wrong, but all the talk I hear from everywhere suggests Skinner will be signed in due course. 

What I think will be interesting to follow is the remaining 19 games of the season.

Just how many more games are we going to lose?  Or to put it another way, how many more points are we going to get? 

I think we have a solid shot to finish at or below 78 points, which is the point total we had after the 2016/2017 season.  That's the point total that was the final nail in the coffin for both GMTM and Bylsma.

If Pegula pulled the trigger on those guys after 78 points in 2017, what might he do this year?!

Are things different now?  Not sure. 

 

You can basically afford 2 or 3 top paying offensive contracts.  If Skinner wants 9 mil or even north of that - I'm not sure JBot thinks he and Eichel are enough to compete with all the other duo's.  It's not an easy decision.    

That Okposo contract is a real killer. 

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1 hour ago, Kruppstahl said:

It could be wrong, but all the talk I hear from everywhere suggests Skinner will be signed in due course. 

What I think will be interesting to follow is the remaining 19 games of the season.

Just how many more games are we going to lose?  Or to put it another way, how many more points are we going to get? 

I think we have a solid shot to finish at or below 78 points, which is the point total we had after the 2016/2017 season.  That's the point total that was the final nail in the coffin for both GMTM and Bylsma.

If Pegula pulled the trigger on those guys after 78 points in 2017, what might he do this year?!

Are things different now?  Not sure. 

 

Lets say we finish with that 78pts you're looking at.

GMTM and Bylsma dropped from 81pts to 78pts trending downward.

Botts and HCPH will have trended upward from 62pts to 78pts despite their post win streak spiral.

I'd say things are different now.....how much is the question and whether or not you believe we will trend upwards more or not. With the draft and FA signings coming up, I'd prefer a wait and see what changes can be made. Also would like to see how Amerks handle the playoffs and who might be rewarded a jump next year.

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18 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

https://wgr550.radio.com/articles/opinion/sabres-still-paying-sins-tim-murray

this is very well said and I prime reason we still for no depth in the NHL. Thanks TM

What's that Lassie? Timmy traded all our assets away and then the Sabres fell down a well without any up and coming players for which they are paying the price and have been paying that price since they have been awful at drafting since 2009? 

... almost like we need to draft and develop players better. 

11 hours ago, Kruppstahl said:

It could be wrong, but all the talk I hear from everywhere suggests Skinner will be signed in due course. 

What I think will be interesting to follow is the remaining 19 games of the season.

Just how many more games are we going to lose?  Or to put it another way, how many more points are we going to get? 

I think we have a solid shot to finish at or below 78 points, which is the point total we had after the 2016/2017 season.  That's the point total that was the final nail in the coffin for both GMTM and Bylsma.

If Pegula pulled the trigger on those guys after 78 points in 2017, what might he do this year?!

Are things different now?  Not sure. 

 

It is well documented that Pegula didn't pull the trigger on GMTM and Bylsma because of the 78 points alone. There were other factors. 

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21 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

https://wgr550.radio.com/articles/opinion/sabres-still-paying-sins-tim-murray

this is very well said and I prime reason we still for no depth in the NHL. Thanks TM

Meh. It was only a mistake because it didn’t work.

And he lists a bunch of players that wouldn’t even help us now and another list of players every other team passed on as well to make his case? 

The best part of the “what if” game is that nobody can say he is wrong. I will , though.?

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1 hour ago, SwampD said:

Meh. It was only a mistake because it didn’t work.

And he lists a bunch of players that wouldn’t even help us now and another list of players every other team passed on as well to make his case? 

The best part of the “what if” game is that nobody can say he is wrong. I will , though.?

My favorite part of the what if game is that it ignores the people they actually did draft.  Those aren't looking so great either, so that doesn't exactly suggest to me that if they had more picks they would have gotten those right.

Also, of the actual players they traded away, Compher's really the only one that leaves me wondering.

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What if Murray didn't make the Kane trade and instead of Jack Eichel, we drafted Dylan Strome?

What if Murray drafted Sam Bennett instead of Sam Reinhart?

What if Murray was unable to make the Miller trade and Linus Ullmark was picked by Vegas and we didn't have all the picks that eventually resulted from that trade?

What if Murray was a little better and prevented us from bottoming out last year?

 

What if Murray's moves were undone and this was our lineup:

Skinner White Bennett

Armia Mittelstadt Compher

Sheary Strome Pominville

Girgensons Larsson Stafford

Lemieux Girgorenko Ennis

McCabe Ristolainen

Pysyk McNabb

Myers Zadorov

Scandella Cernak

Hutton

Miller

 

The what-if game is fun.

Edited by dudacek
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5 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

https://wgr550.radio.com/articles/opinion/sabres-still-paying-sins-tim-murray

this is very well said and I prime reason we still for no depth in the NHL. Thanks TM

I was going to quote that same article but you beat me to it. It's a telling legacy that would be hard for anyone to do worse than. The WHAT IF scenario is just depressing. 

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2 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I was going to quote that same article but you beat me to it. It's a telling legacy that would be hard for anyone to do worse than. The WHAT IF scenario is just depressing. 

Every single team in the league could use the same exact what if scenario. especially when you get past the first round picks.  The Braydon Point inclusion is the ultimate in hindsight.  The Sabres still had two more picks within that unusually large 19 pick window that the author offered, drafting Jonas Johansson and Brycen Martin.  It's probably a safe bet that they weren't taking Point and it's not the trade that caused that.

And you know who else passed on Point in that draft (3 times)?  Tampa.

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1 minute ago, shrader said:

Every single team in the league could use the same exact what if scenario. especially when you get past the first round picks.  The Braydon Point inclusion is the ultimate in hindsight.  The Sabres still had two more picks within that unusually large 19 pick window that the author offered, drafting Jonas Johansson and Brycen Martin.  It's probably a safe bet that they weren't taking Point and it's not the trade that caused that.

And you know who else passed on Point in that draft (3 times)?  Tampa.

No, I think you miss the point. As the article said nobody says he'd have hit on every one of those picks but if he'd kept those players and hit on just a few of them.............

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20 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

No, I think you miss the point. As the article said nobody says he'd have hit on every one of those picks but if he'd kept those players and hit on just a few of them.............

No I completely understand that.  But the point is that every single team can put together lists like this.  When everyone is making the same decision, it starts to point you towards realizing just how unlikely it was to actually make that so called correct pick.  And you know what's even more unlikely than hitting on a very low probability event?  Hitting on 2 or 3 of them.

I always hate the what if game for this reason, but the article misses on one very big factor in why they are where they are today.  It ignores who they actually brought in, who they actually drafted.  My example above is the perfect one.  They passed on Point several other times even without factoring in the traded away pick.  So is it really the trades themselves that are the issue or is it the evaluation of talent?

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Yeh but Murray seemed to miss or trade a lot of the guys who had talent. Compher and Armia are the two I would want back.  Zadorov would have been nice to keep as well f OReilly and his alcoholic depression.  It'll rear its ugly head again if he hasnt gotten help.  Blyma only made those moves worse.  Botts so far seems to be slowly doing it the right way... just need a coach who can make it happen.  Colorado with a little more talent and a-weaker division is struggling too.  No w if the Sabres are in the same place this time next year... and Housley isnt replaced then it may be time to move on.  Hoping draft and at least 1 top fa signing gets Sabres close enough to take the next step.  Still think Hutton needs to be stronger and Jack needs to go to forecheck school.

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7 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

https://wgr550.radio.com/articles/opinion/sabres-still-paying-sins-tim-murray

this is very well said and I prime reason we still for no depth in the NHL. Thanks TM

That article is crap.  It completely ignores Murray's two major acquisitions, Kane and O'Reilly.

Those two guys have a combined 61 goals and 114 points this season. 

Sure, Murray made questionable trades, but it's unfair to ignore the 100+ point hole in the roster that Botterill caused when he traded those guys for nothing.

When you trade your all-star 2nd center and all-star winger, you're going to have depth issues.

In a bizarro world where Boterill keeps O'Reilly and Kane and still makes the Skinner and Sheary trades, the Sabres don't have a depth problem.  In fact, with that lineup, Mittelstadt probably spends a year in Rochester.

Murray had his issues.  For example, he was trying to build the Kings while his coach was trying to coach the Penguins.  And he probably deserved to be fired based on his asocial attitude and his inability to relate to the young team he was building.

The GM, though who caused the biggest depth issues on the team is Botterill.  

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3 minutes ago, jad1 said:

That article is crap.  It completely ignores Murray's two major acquisitions, Kane and O'Reilly.

Those two guys have a combined 61 goals and 114 points this season. 

Sure, Murray made questionable trades, but it's unfair to ignore the 100+ point hole in the roster that Botterill caused when he traded those guys for nothing.

When you trade your all-star 2nd center and all-star winger, you're going to have depth issues.

In a bizarro world where Boterill keeps O'Reilly and Kane and still makes the Skinner and Sheary trades, the Sabres don't have a depth problem.  In fact, with that lineup, Mittelstadt probably spends a year in Rochester.

Murray had his issues.  For example, he was trying to build the Kings while his coach was trying to coach the Penguins.  And he probably deserved to be fired based on his asocial attitude and his inability to relate to the young team he was building.

The GM, though who caused the biggest depth issues on the team is Botterill.  

I wish we were still trying to build the Kings.  That team kicked ass and had the makeup to win in a very reliable, predictable way.

They took 2 Cups during the Chicago Dynasty Run, which says a lot.

 

 

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10 hours ago, shrader said:

No I completely understand that.  But the point is that every single team can put together lists like this.  When everyone is making the same decision, it starts to point you towards realizing just how unlikely it was to actually make that so called correct pick.  And you know what's even more unlikely than hitting on a very low probability event?  Hitting on 2 or 3 of them.

I always hate the what if game for this reason, but the article misses on one very big factor in why they are where they are today.  It ignores who they actually brought in, who they actually drafted.  My example above is the perfect one.  They passed on Point several other times even without factoring in the traded away pick.  So is it really the trades themselves that are the issue or is it the evaluation of talent?

So just look at the prospects traded away. True, they are not superstars, so evaluation was an issue but add them up. 

What's a big issue with this roster? Lack of depth and poor second and third lines. So put Armia, Lemieux and Compher back on the roster and take Thompson and Sobotka away. Pretty safe to say we'd be a better team right there.

Now on D, remove Bogo but add in Myers, Zadorov and Pysyk. Those guys all took a bad rap the same way Risto often does. They are not 1-2 D men but they are 3-4 D men. Our D would have been a lot better had they all been kept.

Now if we are great and draft Point, Aho, Boeser we're a powerhouse but let's say for argument we miss a lot of them. All we get is maybe Konecny and Carlo, maybe one more, we're still way way better than we are now. 

I doubt many teams can put a list of errors together as big as this one. 

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13 hours ago, jad1 said:

That article is crap.  It completely ignores Murray's two major acquisitions, Kane and O'Reilly.

Those two guys have a combined 61 goals and 114 points this season. 

Sure, Murray made questionable trades, but it's unfair to ignore the 100+ point hole in the roster that Botterill caused when he traded those guys for nothing.

When you trade your all-star 2nd center and all-star winger, you're going to have depth issues.

In a bizarro world where Boterill keeps O'Reilly and Kane and still makes the Skinner and Sheary trades, the Sabres don't have a depth problem.  In fact, with that lineup, Mittelstadt probably spends a year in Rochester.

Murray had his issues.  For example, he was trying to build the Kings while his coach was trying to coach the Penguins.  And he probably deserved to be fired based on his asocial attitude and his inability to relate to the young team he was building.

The GM, though who caused the biggest depth issues on the team is Botterill.  

Well said...I have said all along that JBotto is on a mission to get rid of any of Murray's players thus dumping 2 stars for basically nothing. The other guys being talked about (Compher, Zadorov, etc) are fringe 3 or 4 the liners and we already have lots of those guys. But giving away OReilly and kane for nothing are the moves that for me are inexcusable. We have that Tage guy playing only becuase they have tio have something to show for the OReilly trade and the same for Reagon or whatever his name is. Both these guys are just filler for Rochester. Murray stole OReilly and traded value-for-value in the Kane trade and people are still bashing him yet JBotto gets no grief for two of the worse trades I have ever seen only becuse they were Murray's guys and JBotto is determined to get rid of all his guys (Bailey, Baptiste, etc). Nylander should get a chance over this Tage guy but he (Nylander) will be  next to go...

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