Are the Sabres damaging players?

[Scottysabres]

The reports of Dahlin wondering around the locker room like a dementia patient is concerning to say the least. It's more and more apparent there are no real answers here. There was supposed to be culture change? Not seeing it. What I am seeing is actually getting worse than prior seasons, and that's hard to digest. I wonder how guys like Jack, Sam, Jeff and Risto actually feel.

I have no answers.
Change the coaching staff? We've done that multiple times now and no response.
Change the players? We've done that and still...…..the same problems as the old players, lack of scoring, lack of hustle, lack of energy, lack of will to do what is necessary to win, etc. etc.
Change of GM? We've done that and still same old organizational culture issues.

There is something definitely wrong in BUFFALO. It's beyond any one category. The Management team, the Coaching staff and the Players all appear to be subpar NHL performers, and yet, in prior career positions for most of these guys, they were successful. It is beyond baffling, I cannot pinpoint what it is, but something has to be done, 8 years now and this team is actually regressing. 0 progress. The fans are growing beyond frustrated, there's an actual palpable hate for this organization growing in our community, never have seen the likes of this before. I have to assume they are aware of it, if even to a lesser extent than what I am hearing and seeing after games like last night and seasons like this.

[Assquatch]

?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Oh boy, this sounds familiar. I seem to remember that we had this discussion back a few years.

It's still a valid question.

I think that a big problem is that none of the players, nor the head coach, know what it takes to win consistently in the NHL, especially in the playoffs.

I know that Phil was an assistant coach in Nashville, but that appears to be of little help.

The question is how much time do they get to figure it out.

[Scottysabres]

1 minute ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Oh boy, this sounds familiar. I seem to remember that we had this discussion back a few years.

It's still a valid question.

I think that a big problem is that none of the players, nor the head coach, know what it takes to win consistently in the NHL, especially in the playoffs.

I know that Phil was an assistant coach in Nashville, but that appears to be of little help.

The question is how much time do they get to figure it out.

Not sure on the length of leash to Phil, but yea, this is a very valid question as well.

But the players...………………..not a good sign in my humble opinion.

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, Scottysabres said:

The reports of Dahlin wondering around the locker room like a dementia patient is concerning to say the least. It's more and more apparent there are no real answers here. There was supposed to be culture change? Not seeing it. What I am seeing is actually getting worse than prior seasons, and that's hard to digest. I wonder how guys like Jack, Sam, Jeff and Risto actually feel.

I have no answers.
Change the coaching staff? We've done that multiple times now and no response.
Change the players? We've done that and still...…..the same problems as the old players, lack of scoring, lack of hustle, lack of energy, lack of will to do what is necessary to win, etc. etc.
Change of GM? We've done that and still same old organizational culture issues.

There is something definitely wrong in BUFFALO. It's beyond any one category. The Management team, the Coaching staff and the Players all appear to be subpar NHL performers, and yet, in prior career positions for most of these guys, they were successful. It is beyond baffling, I cannot pinpoint what it is, but something has to be done, 8 years now and this team is actually regressing. 0 progress. The fans are growing beyond frustrated, there's an actual palpable hate for this organization growing in our community, never have seen the likes of this before. I have to assume they are aware of it, if even to a lesser extent than what I am hearing and seeing after games like last night and seasons like this.

Well if Jack, Sam, Jeff and Risto all feel bad about it I suggest they take over and lead the team to better play.  Players have the power to lead by example, to call out the slugs, to set the tone   

There is is nothing about the city of Buffalo, or the Sabres uniform, or past history that makes this team bad.  To win you start with a great front office and scouting, you put in a system to evaluate and develop talent, you find and/or create good players and you coach them to play their best.  Once that is in place it’s up to the players to win, to want to be the best, to not accept losing.  

 

We are really just starting to put these elements in place.  For a very long time the problem was the front office.  Our talent level is now improving,  Rochester is improving, prospects in juniors and colleges are improving.   

I will stick with JBot.  Phil is questionable, especially with Joel Quenville out there.  If the team does not progress to a playoff spot it would be hard to ignore JQ.  

Edited February 2, 2019 by Pimlach

[PASabreFan]

I actually woke up in the middle of the night pondering the question. The way I framed it one time was — what's wrong with Dad?

Broadcasters who shouldn't be anywhere near an NHL mic (and frankly that likely includes Rick at this point); well-known issues with game presentation and arena atmosphere; a morose, tongue-tied PA announcer; an uninspiring anthem singer who gets mocked every game but somehow doesn't realize it; arena staff who routinely turn on strobe lights and the horn when the puck hasn't crossed the line; media members who don't know the game and don't know how to ask questions; embarrassing team HOF ceremonies.

I watched two clowns behind the bench last night (not Housley and an assistant, either) but the trainer and the assistant equipment guy. Embarrassing. Do they think they're bigger than the game?

E. Kane. ROR. Lehner. Berglund. Babcock. Black widows. Announcers passing out. Ankles. Gropers. Skeeves. Sabrepedes. Turdburgers. Fan "Appreciation" nights. Loving Leaf fans. Opkosos.

What's wrong with dad?

What could possibly tie all of this together? I wonder.

Edited February 2, 2019 by PASabreFan

[Carmel Corn]

5 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Well if Jack, Sam, Jeff and Risto all fell bad about it I suggest they take over and lead the team to better play.  Players have the power to lead by example, to call out the slugs, to set the tone   

There is is nothing about the city of Buffalo, or the Sabres uniform, or past history that makes this team bad.  To win you start with a great front office and scouting, you put in a system to evaluate and develop talent, you find and/or create good players and you coach them to play their best.  Once that is in place it’s up to the players to win, to want to be the best, to not accept losing.  

 

We are really just starting to put these elements in place.  For a very long time the problem was the front office.  Our talent level is now improving,  Rochester is improving, prospects in juniors and colleges are improving.   

I will stick with JBot.  Phil is questionable, especially with Joel Quenville out there.  If the team does not progress to a playoff spot it would be hard to ignore JQ.  

A lot of good points here.  The only thing I might add is that there are others who do not deserve a pass either.  Players like Okposo need to lead by example as well.  Yes, he got a goal last night, but I would argue that in general there has not been enough urgency or tenacity in his game to demonstrate to his teammates that he deserves his "A" and big salary.  When you're paid to score and it's not happening, then play harder, hit some people, get dirty and protect your teammates....not seeing this with KO IMHO.

[Scottysabres]

3 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I actually woke up in the middle of the night pondering the question. The way I framed it one time was — what's wrong with Dad?

Broadcasters who shouldn't be anywhere near an NHL mic (and frankly that likely includes Rick at this point); well-known issues with game presentation and arena atmosphere; a morose, tongue-tied PA announcer; an uninspiring anthem singer who gets mocked every game but somehow doesn't realize it; arena staff who routinely turn on strobe lights and the horn when the puck hasn't crossed the line; media members who don't know the game and don't know how to ask questions; embarrassing team HOF ceremonies.

I watched two clowns behind the bench last night (not Housley or an assistant, either) but the trainer and the assistant equipment guy. Embarrassing. Do they think they're bigger than the game.

E Kane. ROR. Lehner. Berglund. Babcock. Black widows. Announcers passing out. Ankles. Gropers. Skeeves. Sabrepedes. Turdburgers. Fan "Appreciation." Loving Leaf fans. Opkosos.

What's wrong with dad?

What could possibly tie all of this together? I wonder.

 

It's now towards the end of yr 4 with the Risto/Eichel/Reinhart core. Risto here even longer for development and maturity convo's.
It is becoming abundantly clear with each passing game now that this core is fast approaching failure status. Individual player stats are one thing, but the overall final product of season after season of failure can no longer be ignored. You can have all the corsi, cf, and whatever other stats you want, but in the end, the win/lose record and disappearance of post season play here in Buffalo TOWERS above any stat you can put forth for the players. It does 0 good to have the bun when you have no hamburger to put on it, it's not a hamburger then, just bread.

I see no end in sight for this either. There are no hero's coming to save the day, nor should there be given the draft position of these players and where they are expected to be when put in a comparable pool of other teams young star players leading their respective teams to the playoffs. Nope, the Buffalo rebuild is a complete failure, from top to bottom, including the aforementioned players above. There is no other way to view this when looking at the results of the product.

[TrueBlueGED]

4 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

It's now towards the end of yr 4 with the Risto/Eichel/Reinhart core. Risto here even longer for development and maturity convo's.
It is becoming abundantly clear with each passing game now that this core is fast approaching failure status. Individual player stats are one thing, but the overall final product of season after season of failure can no longer be ignored. You can have all the corsi, cf, and whatever other stats you want, but in the end, the win/lose record and disappearance of post season play here in Buffalo TOWERS above any stat you can put forth for the players. It does 0 good to have the bun when you have no hamburger to put on it, it's not a hamburger then, just bread.

I see no end in sight for this either. There are no hero's coming to save the day, nor should there be given the draft position of these players and where they are expected to be when put in a comparable pool of other teams young star players leading their respective teams to the playoffs. Nope, the Buffalo rebuild is a complete failure, from top to bottom, including the aforementioned players above. There is no other way to view this when looking at the results of the product.

It's weird to me you'd frame it this way, as stats such as corsi et al. have consistently said players we think are good are actually bad, and the team is actually bad when the record says it's better. And it routinely gets shouted down with stuff like "If you think Risto is bad you don't know what you're talking about" and so on. 

[Radar]

One point to consider. We have assembled a very young team. We're expecting 18-22 year olds to lead. We then,and I supported it, hired a young first time head coach. Also a young GM. Not saying this to be critical but are we too young in too many critical areas? I know as fans we throw the term retread and too old around but in our case maybe right now we're too young.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Radar

[Pimlach]

5 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

It's now towards the end of yr 4 with the Risto/Eichel/Reinhart core. Risto here even longer for development and maturity convo's.
It is becoming abundantly clear with each passing game now that this core is fast approaching failure status. Individual player stats are one thing, but the overall final product of season after season of failure can no longer be ignored. You can have all the corsi, cf, and whatever other stats you want, but in the end, the win/lose record and disappearance of post season play here in Buffalo TOWERS above any stat you can put forth for the players. It does 0 good to have the bun when you have no hamburger to put on it, it's not a hamburger then, just bread.

I see no end in sight for this either. There are no hero's coming to save the day, nor should there be given the draft position of these players and where they are expected to be when put in a comparable pool of other teams young star players leading their respective teams to the playoffs. Nope, the Buffalo rebuild is a complete failure, from top to bottom, including the aforementioned players above. There is no other way to view this when looking at the results of the product.

Well we sit three points out of a wildcard, we have some games in hand, so it’s hard to not see that some things have improved.  Its just hard to understand how the things that helped us during the streak - great goaltending, solid defensive play, a top scoring line - are now all gone.  

 

What will it take to get the November team back?  

[Weave]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Well we sit three points out of a wildcard, we have some games in hand, so it’s hard to not see that some things have improved.  Its just hard to understand how the things that helped us during the streak - great goaltending, solid defensive play, a top scoring line - are now all gone.  

 

What will it take to get the November team back?  

It never left.  The league tightened up as it does every year and what was working well enough isn't enough anymore.

[Scottysabres]

1 minute ago, TrueBlueGED said:

It's weird to me you'd frame it this way, as stats such as corsi et al. have consistently said players we think are good are actually bad, and the team is actually bad when the record says it's better. And it routinely gets shouted down with stuff like "If you think Risto is bad you don't know what you're talking about" and so on. 

I don't know True, I see the numbers others post, I understand them, I understand the reasoning behind them and the story "they're supposed to tell". But in the end, they are just individual player numbers to me, how this player affects that player or that situation and so on. I'm now beyond looking at the individual stats, I'm looking at the collective, and the only stat that tells me the most complete picture of what is going on here in Buffalo is that Win/Lose record and current Conference Standings list.

Everything else, to me in any event, revolves around that. For one simple reason actually, and that is this...….the players see the position they are in as well, and they are fully aware of what it takes to improve that position. Let me say that again, the players are fully aware of where they are at and where they need to be.

I don't see success when I hear them speak game after game, I see the same defeatist mindset we've seen for several seasons here now. I have come to the conclusion that this rebuild is indeed a failure. Whether or not they turn it around or changes are made or some other plan is designed to alter course is pretty much irrelevant to me now. This current core, while complete or incomplete in it's personnel, has 3 components that are unable, or unwilling, to achieve success.

Culture change? Not with this group I fear. Never one to give hope of course, but settling in to the reality that currently, there is no end in sight to this "SUFFERING".

[Scottysabres]

13 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Well we sit three points out of a wildcard, we have some games in hand, so it’s hard to not see that some things have improved.  Its just hard to understand how the things that helped us during the streak - great goaltending, solid defensive play, a top scoring line - are now all gone.  

 

What will it take to get the November team back?  

I didn't record any of the games this year, it would be interesting to go back and watch a few of them to see how they played their way through that streak. I was at the Nov. 10th game against Vancouver when Casey scored the winner in a shoot out, but even through out that game that's in my mind, the only players that stuck out to me are really not a memory I can draw forth.

Hard to say what it would take, but these shellacking's we are taking 7 - 3, aren't the norm obviously, the game before was 1 - 0. To me, it all lay in the consistency I guess. Or, the lack of it. Coaching? Yea, I can see that being an issue, but I can't for the life of me see Phil coaching blind passes in the D zone, or worse, passing it right to the opposing team in the slot. How about the O zone, no one in the slot for us, perimeter play all day long, using an umbrella type formation that appears to rely very heavily on the points as opposed to the forwards down low. These are just things I see game in and game out.

15 minutes ago, Weave said:

It never left.  The league tightened up as it does every year and what was working well enough isn't enough anymore.

A change of on ice strategy would appear to be the focal point, I agree. I guess they call them adjustments, but the only question I have to that end is this: Is Housley not adjusting, are his adjustments just bad and not working, or, is it the players that are not implementing those adjustments if they are indeed being made, and if so, why is this?

[PASabreFan]

Phil is every NFL coach who ever had a lead on the Pats at halftime. We're learning he's no Belichick. Phil's getting schooled. The Dallas game is Exhibit A. And that's on top of unforced pregame errors like starting Hutton over Ullmark last night.

[Carmel Corn]

13 minutes ago, Scottysabres said:

I didn't record any of the games this year, it would be interesting to go back and watch a few of them to see how they played their way through that streak. I was at the Nov. 10th game against Vancouver when Casey scored the winner in a shoot out, but even through out that game that's in my mind, the only players that stuck out to me are really not a memory I can draw forth.

Hard to say what it would take, but these shellacking's we are taking 7 - 3, aren't the norm obviously, the game before was 1 - 0. To me, it all lay in the consistency I guess. Or, the lack of it. Coaching? Yea, I can see that being an issue, but I can't for the life of me see Phil coaching blind passes in the D zone, or worse, passing it right to the opposing team in the slot. How about the O zone, no one in the slot for us, perimeter play all day long, using an umbrella type formation that appears to rely very heavily on the points as opposed to the forwards down low. These are just things I see game in and game out.

A change of on ice strategy would appear to be the focal point, I agree. I guess they call them adjustments, but the only question I have to that end is this: Is Housley not adjusting, are his adjustments just bad and not working, or, is it the players that are not implementing those adjustments if they are indeed being made, and if so, why is this?

Adjustments (or lack of) clearly an issue.  Why is it that we continually have a melt-down in the second period?  Do other teams adjust and we don't or are we making bad adjustments....maybe a little of both.

Yes, the coaching staff is not the ones making dumb passes, etc, but it is their responsibility to fix it and prevent it from becoming something you see "game in and game out".  They are not getting the job done.

Edited February 2, 2019 by Carmel Corn

[jame]

56 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Well if Jack, Sam, Jeff and Risto all feel bad about it I suggest they take over and lead the team to better play.  Players have the power to lead by example, to call out the slugs, to set the tone   

There is is nothing about the city of Buffalo, or the Sabres uniform, or past history that makes this team bad.  To win you start with a great front office and scouting, you put in a system to evaluate and develop talent, you find and/or create good players and you coach them to play their best.  Once that is in place it’s up to the players to win, to want to be the best, to not accept losing.  

 

We are really just starting to put these elements in place.  For a very long time the problem was the front office.  Our talent level is now improving,  Rochester is improving, prospects in juniors and colleges are improving.   

I will stick with JBot.  Phil is questionable, especially with Joel Quenville out there.  If the team does not progress to a playoff spot it would be hard to ignore JQ.  

Sticking with the guy who hired Housley... bold.

Quenneville is not going to a team run by a Jason Botterill 

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Poor coaching obviously damages players.  The jury I'm on regarding Housley is close to a verdict, and it's not a positive one. 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Formerly Allan in MD

[PASabreFan]

6 minutes ago, jame said:

Sticking with the guy who hired Housley... bold.

Quenneville is not going to a team run by a Jason Botterill 

That's a good point. Sticking with the trigger word of the day (alpha), Joel would want Babcock-like control and influence, I would think. I'd give it to him. Let Botterill play the role he played in Pittsburgh.

[jame]

3 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

That's a good point. Sticking with the trigger word of the day (alpha), Joel would want Babcock-like control and influence, I would think. I'd give it to him. Let Botterill play the role he played in Pittsburgh.

I wonder if Q wants to return behind the bench, or if he wants a GM/Team president type of job. He hated not having roster control... I would t be surprised if his next job was a 1-3 year coaching stint, before moving upstairs with the same organization while one of his long time assistants finally got a head coaching job (Mike Kitchen)

[Pimlach]

14 minutes ago, jame said:

Sticking with the guy who hired Housley... bold.

Quenneville is not going to a team run by a Jason Botterill 

I hope your wrong and that Botterill is building up his reputation.  Phil was considered an up and coming coach, maybe the jump was too far too fast.  

I wanted us to grab Julien when he hit the market.  Now I see Quenneville and can only hope.  

[Pimlach]

9 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

That's a good point. Sticking with the trigger word of the day (alpha), Joel would want Babcock-like control and influence, I would think. I'd give it to him. Let Botterill play the role he played in Pittsburgh.

JQ to coach for a few years then move up to President?  Either way JQ comes in as a peer to Bots.  ??

 

ok, I’m done dreaming 

[...]

21 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I hope your wrong and that Botterill is building up his reputation.  Phil was considered an up and coming coach, maybe the jump was too far too fast.  

I wanted us to grab Julien when he hit the market.  Now I see Quenneville and can only hope.  

Phil should have started the season in the AHL, like Tage and Mitts.

[jame]

23 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I hope your wrong and that Botterill is building up his reputation.  Phil was considered an up and coming coach, maybe the jump was too far too fast.  

I wanted us to grab Julien when he hit the market.  Now I see Quenneville and can only hope.  

Hard to imagine Botts has done anything to build a positive reputation...

[Scottysabres]

3 minutes ago, ... said:

Phil should have started the season in the AHL, like Tage and Mitts.

Zamboni driver?