Phil Housley should be fired.

[dudacek]

This should not be considered a defence of Phil. Like Neo, I can't satisfactorily answer Blue's question. It's a results-based business and when the performance is as lacking as it has been, the boss takes the fall. Everyone accepts that.

But I struggle mightily with the idea that the focus on Phil has somehow shielded this group of players, that the criticism against them has largely focused on trite fan cliches of "grit" and "effort" when there is a far more obvious answer: they aren't good enough at putting the puck in the net, or keeping it out.

In the past three games, the Sabres have outshot the opposition an average of 33 to 28, yet have been outscored 11-1. Our save percentage is .888. Our opponents'  is .988.

Throwing out the Colorado game, which was probably our worst performance of the season, we are on a streak where we have fired 35 shots at the goalie five times and kept the opponent below 30 four times. Those are numbers that usually lead to wins, yet we have lost all six of those games.

I'm not seeing a team that is being outworked and outcoached. I am seeing Conor Sheary whiffing on perfect passes 20 feet in front of a wide-open net while Linus Ullmark allows an unscreened, untipped goal from the sideboards, 10 feet above the goal line. I'm not picking on those two players, just using them as recent examples of how what should be routine plays  have been anything but routine. We have to execute and that is on the players.

It legitimately feels like we are cursed and it has crushed the fan base. I can't imagine what it is doing to the morale in the locker room.

Edited March 17, 2019 by dudacek

[Zamboni]

I’m seeing a coaching staff consistently out coached. Because I don’t see effective in game adjustments that turn the tide of periods or shifts. Sure one could say “nice shift by that line” but it’s a one off. It’s followed up with multiple poor shifts and poor periods. 

The system and coaching are the Achilles heel of this team.  Followed closely by a few holes that need to be filled in the off season. I don’t think goaltending and defense (personnel) are a major factor to focus on in the off season. Maybe try to move one of Bogo, Nelson, or Scandella. I’d prefer Bogo. His salary is obnoxious for what he brings. 

Sabres have the horses to dictate play with speed... but Housley refuses to play a system like Winnipeg or SJ. 

We need scoring wingers. Second only to a new systems/coaching staff. 

With Pominville gone, and maybe one of Sheary or Okposo, the Sabres could go after a 25-30 goal a year winger with some wheels. Playoff experience and leadership qualities would be a nice bonus.

 

[Kruppstahl]

3 hours ago, Neo said:

Will a change in coaches change the franchise’s trajectory quickly with this group of talent?  Will a change of talent change the franchis’s trajectory quickly with this group of coaches?  I am unable to respond to True Blue’s question with a defendable argument.  Believing that life is making decisions with the best information available, I give Phil until the end of December, 2019.  I am a believer that all resets extend the timeline of success.  I also am a believer that once the organization is solid, the players rotating in and out are better.  Rochester appears stabilized.

The biggest unknown I have relates to what Housley and Botterill are calling success this year.  Player selection, usage and game day systems have an objective.  I don’t know if we’re working on today or tomorrow when we take the ice this afternoon.  “Both” is brutally hard to accomplish.

The Tank was chemo, an amputation, an organ transplant, an infection and an exorcism, all at once.

Hockey players in the 70s thread:  Traditional Christian reference addressing angels and the head of a pin.

Fire Phil thread:  Traditional Christian reference addressing Limbo.

Limbo:  2.  an uncertain period of awaiting a decision or resolution; an intermediate state or condition.

"the fate of the Sabres is now in limbo".

 

Will a coaching change quickly change the landscape with the present group of players?

No, but that is not an argument for retaining Housley.  He is a huge part of the problem and needs to go.

I would argue Botterill is an equally large part of the problem, and he needs to go too, but it may take a while longer to move him out the door.  The team's woes will continue longer than necessary as a result.

You can give Housley until December of next season, but that just delays the inevitable.

It's pretty obvious this team is not going to get to where it needs to go with Housley as the HC.  That has been apparent for some time.  So the longer the delay in moving forward is just that---a delay in moving forward.

Dismissing Housley in December of next year likely costs us next season too!  Do you want that?

How about demanding something better for a change? 

Pegula has shown many times that he is prepared to fire people and move on once he becomes convinced its not working.

I think his double firing of GMTM and Bylsma took most Sabres fans by surprise.

I am praying he has another double firing in him, and he's just waiting for the end of this embarrassing season to pull the trigger, which I am fine with.

 

 

 

[Kruppstahl]

3 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

I’m seeing a coaching staff consistently out coached. Because I don’t see effective in game adjustments that turn the tide of periods or shifts. Sure one could say “nice shift by that line” but it’s a one off. It’s followed up with multiple poor shifts and poor periods. 

The system and coaching are the Achilles heel of this team.  Followed closely by a few holes that need to be filled in the off season. I don’t think goaltending and defense (personnel) are a major factor to focus on in the off season. Maybe try to move one of Bogo, Nelson, or Scandella. I’d prefer Bogo. His salary is obnoxious for what he brings. 

Sabres have the horses to dictate play with speed... but Housley refuses to play a system like Winnipeg or SJ. 

We need scoring wingers. Second only to a new systems/coaching staff. 

With Pominville gone, and maybe one of Sheary or Okposo, the Sabres could go after a 25-30 goal a year winger with some wheels. Playoff experience and leadership qualities would be a nice bonus.

 

Our goaltending has been atrocious since the win streak ended, and it's a huge part of our lack of success.  Not the sole reason, mind you!  But a big part.

There is no rule that I know of that says we can't address multiple problems at the same time.

Just because our goaltending is horrible doesn't mean the HC doesn't need to go, and in fact, can't be terminated.

Get rid of Botterill, get rid of Housley, find better goaltending, find something that passes for an acceptable 2C, remove BOGO form this team immediately!  Trade RISTO if you can get some decent value in return, and try to add 1 or 2 more d-men who can skate and take care of play in their own ends.

There's lot of work that needs to be done, but there is no reason why it can't all be done in 1 offseason.  

Botterill would have you believe this all takes years; which makes sense from his perspective!  Years of 7 figure paychecks are better than a few! 

 

 

[PASabreFan]

7 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

I’m seeing a coaching staff consistently out coached. Because I don’t see effective in game adjustments that turn the tide of periods or shifts. Sure one could say “nice shift by that line” but it’s a one off. It’s followed up with multiple poor shifts and poor periods. 

The system and coaching are the Achilles heel of this team.  Followed closely by a few holes that need to be filled in the off season. I don’t think goaltending and defense (personnel) are a major factor to focus on in the off season. Maybe try to move one of Bogo, Nelson, or Scandella. I’d prefer Bogo. His salary is obnoxious for what he brings. 

Sabres have the horses to dictate play with speed... but Housley refuses to play a system like Winnipeg or SJ. 

We need scoring wingers. Second only to a new systems/coaching staff. 

With Pominville gone, and maybe one of Sheary or Okposo, the Sabres could go after a 25-30 goal a year winger with some wheels. Playoff experience and leadership qualities would be a nice bonus.

 

Might the outcoaching issue explain the Sabres' second periods? Or even their hot start dissipating into the abyss?

[Zamboni]

4 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Might the outcoaching issue explain the Sabres' second periods? Or even their hot start dissipating into the abyss?

Oh absolutely. So they have a good game plan. They come out looking good! Hell, they may even score! Lol.

1st intermission happens. Opposing coach and his staff come up with a good counter punch. Phil and his staff... not so much.

2nd and 3rd period happen and Phil has no answer to the counterpunch. No effective adjustments in game and 2nd intermission. Coaches are scratching their heads and post games say something like “we didn’t execute”. 

Rinse. repeat.

[dudacek]

Not being argumentative, just looking for knowledge: how are we being outcoached?

With Bylsma, there were things I saw happen repeatedly that did not work: the stretch pass that we struggled to execute, the dump-in that inevitably resulted in a turnover; these were dated relics that weren't working for the Sabres and weren't being used by the league's better teams. Lack of nearby support for the puck carrier is another. These areas have improved under Housley.

Among the Sabres major failings I see are a lack of puck pressure all over the ice and a reluctance to go to the net. I don't think these things are Phil's fault, because they are things I hear him say the players need to be better at. They are things that are present when the Sabres play well. They seem to be platforms in his strategy that the team is not implementing.

What things are other coaches doing that Housley is not? What tactics are they using that are succeeding because of Housley's coaching decisions? What adjustments are available to him that he is failing to exercise?

I am no expert at high-level hockey strategy. Help me out here, why is it coaching strategy and not player execution?

How are our coaches letting us down?

Edited March 17, 2019 by dudacek

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

39 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

I’m seeing a coaching staff consistently out coached. Because I don’t see effective in game adjustments that turn the tide of periods or shifts. Sure one could say “nice shift by that line” but it’s a one off. It’s followed up with multiple poor shifts and poor periods. 

The system and coaching are the Achilles heel of this team.  Followed closely by a few holes that need to be filled in the off season. I don’t think goaltending and defense (personnel) are a major factor to focus on in the off season. Maybe try to move one of Bogo, Nelson, or Scandella. I’d prefer Bogo. His salary is obnoxious for what he brings. 

Sabres have the horses to dictate play with speed... but Housley refuses to play a system like Winnipeg or SJ. 

We need scoring wingers. Second only to a new systems/coaching staff. 

With Pominville gone, and maybe one of Sheary or Okposo, the Sabres could go after a 25-30 goal a year winger with some wheels. Playoff experience and leadership qualities would be a nice bonus.

 

I sometimes don't understand this train of thought.

A combination of any two of those three players bring you 25-30 goals and over 50pts for about $8.5M(I doubt the re-sign Pommers at 5.6M ,so it would be cheaper than that). Are you planning on bringing ROR back? LOL

Those players also bring your playoff experience.

Isn't KO one of the leaders?

So, replacing two of them with one 25-30 g scorer would only be an even up deal and leave a roster spot open.

Now if you want to explain how you could get one 25-30g score with at least 55pts and playoff experience to actually WANT to come here AND add to the team substantially to make the team better by using less than $8.5M......please procede. Remember that Botts has his ideas also, age, term, etc.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

27 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Oh absolutely. So they have a good game plan. They come out looking good! Hell, they may even score! Lol.

1st intermission happens. Opposing coach and his staff come up with a good counter punch. Phil and his staff... not so much.

2nd and 3rd period happen and Phil has no answer to the counterpunch. No effective adjustments in game and 2nd intermission. Coaches are scratching their heads and post games say something like “we didn’t execute”. 

Rinse. repeat.

I keep hearing "we weren't prepared", "we got a slow start", so how often do they "come out looking good"?

They may play better in the 1st and/or 3rd as opposed to the 2nd, but I wouldn't say good on most nights.

[TrueBlueGED]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

This should not be considered a defence of Phil. Like Neo, I can't satisfactorily answer Blue's question. It's a results-based business and when the performance is as lacking as it has been, the boss takes the fall. Everyone accepts that.

But I struggle mightily with the idea that the focus on Phil has somehow shielded this group of players, that the criticism against them has largely focused on trite fan cliches of "grit" and "effort" when there is a far more obvious answer: they aren't good enough at putting the puck in the net, or keeping it out.

In the past three games, the Sabres have outshot the opposition an average of 33 to 28, yet have been outscored 11-1. Our save percentage is .888. Our opponents'  is .988.

Throwing out the Colorado game, which was probably our worst performance of the season, we are on a streak where we have fired 35 shots at the goalie five times and kept the opponent below 30 four times. Those are numbers that usually lead to wins, yet we have lost all six of those games.

I'm not seeing a team that is being outworked and outcoached. I am seeing Conor Sheary whiffing on perfect passes 20 feet in front of a wide-open net while Linus Ullmark allows a an unscreened, untipped goal from the sideboards, 10 feet above the goal line. I'm not picking on those two players, just using them as recent examples of how what should be routine plays  have been anything but routine. We have to execute and that is on the players.

It legitimately feels like we are cursed and it has crushed the fan base. I can't imagine what it is doing to the morale in the locker room.

So, I'm completely with you on the bold. Occam's razor is simply the team lacks talent in the critical areas. And where the overall numbers are concerned, we're still in the 18-22 range for most stuff. It's not good, for sure, it it's also not apocalyptic. The current losing streak is the yin to the winning streak's yang. Highs and lows are funny in hockey with how they shape perceptions. 

Buuuuuut the idea that Housley can be only what his roster is, is not exactly a good reason to keep him, ya know? Especially at the micro level where he thinks putting Skinner with Sobotka is the solution to not scoring, or that Risto and Scandella are a good pair. If he can't get those things right, should I really think he'll make better choices when the roster is better? Again, I want a coach who adds value. I'm not expecting anyone to make this roster a division winner, but I think Housley has left points on the board and hasn't done well to develop, say, Pilut. Those things matter. I don't think he's a catastrophic failure, but I also don't want my team to say that mediocre is good enough. 

[Neo]

 

1 hour ago, Kruppstahl said:

********

Snip, for brevity.

********

How about demanding something better for a change? 

********

********

I’m familiar with demanding better.  I’m not self convinced I know what needs to be better.  I generally sit on my demands until I can argue their efficacy.

You demand better coaching.  She demands better GMing.  They demand better effort and grit.

I’m not arguing against you and I’m not satisfied with the present.

[Pimlach]

6 hours ago, Eleven said:

You think it will take that long?  This conversation started far less than two years after Housley got the job.

Check my original post.   The two more years I’m referring to is for Taylor.   

[Eleven]

4 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Check my original post.   The two more years I’m referring to is for Taylor.   

I know, and I also know it will likely be less than two years before someone starts a thread similar to this for Taylor.

[Radar]

Should just have kept Ruff. Hindsight is great. He is better than anyone who has followed him.

[dudacek]

I think a hockey teams success on the ice is a critical mass kind of operation involving the 19 people playing, the black aces on the fringes of the roster, the coaching staff, the push from the development system and the culture fostered by ownership and upper management.

Some parts - the headcoach, the captain, the first line centre, the goalie - are more important than others, but every part matters. You win by the cumulative being better than the opponent. You want guys playing slightly below their ideal roster spot, not above it. If you can improve any element you do because little improvements in many areas can mean a big improvement overall.

To me, this collapse has more to do with subpar goaltending and a huge gap between our middle six and that of the rest of the league than it has with coaching.

If there is a.better coach out there, I’ll take him. Incremental improvements help.

But I don’t think there are big jumps coming until the roster is fixed.

Edited March 18, 2019 by dudacek

[Pimlach]

Just got back from a week in Florida.  Put on the game just in time to see Risto break his stick on a power play, then fail to forecheck and let a winger with a stick cover the point.  He skates backwards to defend and does nothing, confusion reigns, Parron gets out of the  box, sets up a screen and scores.  

Risto is the dumbest player on the team.   

Just to piss me off more  Risto takes a dumb penalty so the Blues start the 3rd with the man advantage.  

I really have my doubts about #55.  

[Radar]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Just got back from a week in Florida.  Put on the game just in time to see Risto break his stick on a power play, then fail to forecheck and let a winger with a stick cover the point.  He skates backwards to defend and does nothing, confusion reigns, Parron gets out of the  box, sets up a screen and scores.  

Risto is the dumbest player on the team.   

Just to piss me off more  Risto takes a dumb penalty so the Blues start the 3rd with the man advantage.  

I really have my doubts about #55.  

This.

[eman]

10 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

Sooooooo....I guess that Eichel, Skinner and Reinhart all having career years (maybe even others, I didn't look)gives you no hope and it's all Phils systems fault? I get it.

There is no hope. Not now. Not ever. Thank you.

Well, now that you mention it, let's see if Skinner stays? If not, we then need to ask, why not? Also, let's see if Jack stays until the end of his contract and if he does, will he re-up with Buffalo? If he also, does not, we need to know why? Same for Samson. If things don;t turn around by next season or one more after that, career years or not, you can bet they will all bolt. Nothing satisfies more than being part of a winning team. Phil will finish out this season. If by US Thanksgiving of this year the Sabres are still sucking, I don't think we will have Phil around for debate anymore. Just my thoughts but time will tell. 

.

[eman]

11 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

We don't know what Housley tells the players. I could just as easily say "Why doesn't Phil tell Tage to get his shot ON NET". Hockey 102.

Well, if Phil is telling Tage to go and screen the opposing goaltender and Tage isn't doing it (and as far as I've seen, he's not) and Phil keeps playing him, then Phil is a lousy coach and doesn't deserve to be here. 

[eman]

11 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

Do you do any reasearch before you spout off?

Pommers has more goals this season than he had in Minny a couple years ago and 1g shy of last year with 11 games to go.

Okposo is on pace to finish with 2 goals less than last year and about 4goals less than his average in a season with the Sabres.

Girgensons is in a shut-down role on 4th line and hasn't score more than 7g in 4 years.

I highly doubt you've proved that Housley's system is at fault and in Pommers case just the opposite. Not to mention that Nashville is a fun team to watch.

Are you serious? You're using last seasons Sabres totals as career accomplishments? Really, last seasons Sabres? You're using the past 4 seasons Sabres totals for Girgensons? You do realize where this has been the past 8 seasons don't you? How's our offensive totals in that time span? Wow! I'm talking NYI Okposo. Pominville when he was the Sabres Captain (and could score quite a bit) Did Girgensons not get 15 when he was first a Sabre? Phil's no longer in Nashville but you;re right, they are a fun team to watch.

[eman]

11 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

Do you do any reasearch before you spout off?

Pommers has more goals this season than he had in Minny a couple years ago and 1g shy of last year with 11 games to go.

Okposo is on pace to finish with 2 goals less than last year and about 4goals less than his average in a season with the Sabres.

Girgensons is in a shut-down role on 4th line and hasn't score more than 7g in 4 years.

I highly doubt you've proved that Housley's system is at fault and in Pommers case just the opposite. Not to mention that Nashville is a fun team to watch.

Are the Sabres fun to watch under Phil? Not in my view and it looks like the view of many posting here. However, that being said, Phil may or may not be the head coach to start next season and you will have your chance to prove me wrong again. Results are results and Phil's as head coach are horse ####!

[woods-racer]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

I think a hockey teams success on the ice is a critical mass kind of operation involving the 19 people playing, the black aces on the fringes of the roster, the coaching stuff, the push from the development system and the culture fostered by ownership and upper management.

Some parts - the headcoach, the captain, the first line centre, the goalie - are more important than others, but every part matters. You win by the cumulative being better than the opponent. You want guys playing slightly below their ideal roster spot, not above it. If you can improve any element you do because little improvements in many areas can mean a big improvement overall.

To me, this collapse has more to do with subpar goaltending and a huge gap between our middle six and that of the rest of the league than it has with coaching.

If there is a.better coach out there, I’ll take him. Incremental improvements help.

But I don’t think there are big jumps coming until the roster is fixed.

I will for ever phrase a coach as the stage coach driver.

 

No matter how you arrange the horses, no matter how you beat them the stage will only go as fast as the slowest horse.

 

We have a few, and only a few very slow horses.

 

To think JBotts and Phil don't know that is insane. To beat this team and leave scares on them is the worst they could do.  

I will bet there is only 2-4 roster changes come October( and by *only* that is minuscule compared to the last 5 years). But this team will be much faster. The results much different.

[eman]

11 hours ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

Do you do any reasearch before you spout off?

Pommers has more goals this season than he had in Minny a couple years ago and 1g shy of last year with 11 games to go.

Okposo is on pace to finish with 2 goals less than last year and about 4goals less than his average in a season with the Sabres.

Girgensons is in a shut-down role on 4th line and hasn't score more than 7g in 4 years.

I highly doubt you've proved that Housley's system is at fault and in Pommers case just the opposite. Not to mention that Nashville is a fun team to watch.

With all due respect, I just went back and did the research, my memory is still decent as I was correct in my assessment. Okposo and Pominville could put the puck in the net with some regularity a few seasons ago. Pominville had a few 30+ goal seasons with the Sabres (before Minnesota and 1 with them) Okposo as an Islander had a few decent goal seasons there as well. Why you're using Sabre totals of the past 4 seasons is puzzling. The offense sucked. (and still does under Phil) Girgensons got 15 in his 2nd season as a Sabre. So please, allow me to spout off a little more!

[eman]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

Not being argumentative, just looking for knowledge: how are we being outcoached?

With Bylsma, there were things I saw happen repeatedly that did not work: the stretch pass that we struggled to execute, the dump-in that inevitably resulted in a turnover; these were dated relics that weren't working for the Sabres and weren't being used by the league's better teams. Lack of nearby support for the puck carrier is another. These areas have improved under Housley.

Among the Sabres major failings I see are a lack of puck pressure all over the ice and a reluctance to go to the net. I don't think these things are Phil's fault, because they are things I hear him say the players need to be better at. They are things that are present when the Sabres play well. They seem to be platforms in his strategy that the team is not implementing.

What things are other coaches doing that Housley is not? What tactics are they using that are succeeding because of Housley's coaching decisions? What adjustments are available to him that he is failing to exercise?

I am no expert at high-level hockey strategy. Help me out here, why is it coaching strategy and not player execution?

How are our coaches letting us down?

The one that is obvious to me is not putting bodies in front of the opposing goaltender. Only Samson does this at times and when you have guys the size of Girgensons and Tage I know what I would ask of them if I were the coach. Get your ass at the top of the crease! I know Girgensons is on the checking 4th line but on the PP, put him out there at tinmes right in the goalies face, interchange with Tage as well. This club is hardly screening opposing goaltenders when its done league wide. that's one I just don't get and I think it's part of the reason we make many backups look like Vezina winners. Look at DeSmith the other night? No one, absolutely no one, screening him all game.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

6 minutes ago, eman said:

With all due respect, I just went back and did the research, my memory is still decent as I was correct in my assessment. Okposo and Pominville could put the puck in the net with some regularity a few seasons ago. Pominville had a few 30+ goal seasons with the Sabres (before Minnesota and 1 with them) Okposo as an Islander had a few decent goal seasons there as well. Why you're using Sabre totals of the past 4 seasons is puzzling. The offense sucked. (and still does under Phil) Girgensons got 15 in his 2nd season as a Sabre. So please, allow me to spout off a little more!

The point was in regard to your comment that they"all of a sudden" can't put the puck in the net. Not that they couldn't ten years ago. What a joke...LOL

Your point was also about Phil's system and because you aren't happy with it you want to fire him. All you need to do is go back more than two years(the amount of time Phil's been here) to prove you're wrong about the players you mentioned. I had to go back farther than that to find when the last time they were able to score more than they are currently under Phil.

By saying that they "suddenly" don't know how to put the puck in the net....I'll have to assume that the Sabres "suddenly" suck and the last 8 years never happened.

I "suddenly" have a hankering for NeHi grape soda.