Berglund, Sobotka, & a Season Preview

[Randall Flagg]

2 hours ago, pi2000 said:

I don't want to get into this again.

Bottom line is... going into 17-18 with a new modern style headcoach, some new D, new bottom sixers, a healthy Eichel, etc... all arrows were pointing up for a team that finished with 78 and 81 points the previous 2 seasons under the abomination that was Dan Bylsma.     

Instead they got worse by 20 points.... but somehow, someway Housley had nothing to do with that... in fact you go so far as to say that was the plan.    Trust me.... dropping like a stone by 20 points to the league basement was never part of any plan.

Housley had no command of this team, he let locker room issues fester, and talent go to waste.... who exactly improved under Housley last season?   EVERYBODY was worse, having career worse year... Reinhart with what 15 points through the first 40 games or so?     It was only after Reinhart said "screw it" and decided to start playing his own game (watch his exist interview) that he turned his season around.    That's a direct indictment of the coach IMO.

And then all we hear in exit interviews is how every player needs to be better and improve this summer, like it was all the players faults... that's the tail wagging the dog.    PUtting a first time rookie head coach behind the bench with this young immature group was a massive mistake, and one that will continue to play itself out this season I'm afraid.   

They needed an experienced veteran coach to come in, take control, put all their ego's in check and get them pulling in the same direction... there were absolutely no signs of that at any point last season.     Why anybody thinks this season will be any different is beyond me.

Housley was a great player, he's probably (I don't know him personally) a great upstanding guy too.   That doesn't mean he'll be any good as a coach... in fact, it's more likey that great players flop as head coaches because things that made them great came naturally to them and they can't relate to the average player and his struggles.     He went from coaching high school to NHL assistant to head coach.    He's in way over his head and as a fan I'm not patient enough to wait 4 or 5 years for him to figure it out. 

What did I say was a plan? Brother, I've been perhaps the only one with you in the Housley-skepticism camp from day one. Don't put stuff in my mouth I didn't say after pulling it out of your ass. I have very few positive things to say about any coach since Lindy. 

 

You said we were ready for a playoff run after watching the team play 2 months of hockey at a pace worse than they finished this year and getting their entire front office blown up. What about that screams "ready for playoffs"? 

[Sabel79]

Housley may indeed not be the guy, but this in no way makes Disco Dan’s “firing pucks that-a-way as hard as we can because of reasons” extravaganza anything better than abysmal.  We all watched...

[Eleven]

3 hours ago, Radar said:

I just can't help myself. Every time I see PI has posted I have look. This post makes way too much sense. Housley was a fan emotional favorite. Very possibly not the best choice.

Besides the obvious*, who was a better choice who was out there?  He was touted by North American media as one of the best candidates.

 

*You know who I mean and you know I'm counting coaches since then, SabreSpace.

[Radar]

1 minute ago, Eleven said:

Besides the obvious*, who was a better choice who was out there?  He was touted by North American media as one of the best candidates.

 

*You know who I mean and you know I'm counting coaches since then, SabreSpace.

Not sure. Just saying he was probably the fan favorite. I was okay with the hire but possibly a first time coach not the best fit. Time will tell.

[Eleven]

14 minutes ago, Radar said:

Not sure. Just saying he was probably the fan favorite. I was okay with the hire but possibly a first time coach not the best fit. Time will tell.

He was the fan favorite, but at least on this board, I think he was the favorite because of what he did with the defense in Nashville.  Again at least here, I don't think it was because of what he did as a player in Buffalo.

That said, if Housley doesn't work out and if the team doesn't want to rehire the best coach it ever had, maybe, just maybe, it's time to look across the pond?  (I'll bet right now that no one besides Taro can name a European who was an NHL head coach without googling it.)

Edited August 23, 2018 by Eleven

[dudacek]

Wasn’t Hlinka, very briefly?

[dudacek]

And I checked and was right, but completely wrong about who he coached. I was wrongly thinking it was the Hawks during their dark era pre-Kane and Toews.

Should have remembered too, given he was part of a Sabres moment.

Took his team to the semis, fired four games into the next season. Pissed off the wrong player.

 

Edited August 24, 2018 by dudacek

[Eleven]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

And I checked and was right, but completely wrong about who he coached. I was wrongly thinking it was the Hawks during their dark era pre-Kane and Toews.

Should have remembered too, given he was part of a Sabres moment.

Took his team to the semis, fired four games into the next season. Pissed off the wrong player.

 

Chicago did have a European coach, Alpo Suhonen, but I will freely admit that I only knew that from researching my previous post in this thread.

[dudacek]

Good interview with Okposo where he acknowledges the veteran leadership issues I talked about in my opus above and endorses Botterill’s moves. Bunch of guys skating together in Buffalo. We’re getting closer to hockey.

https://wgr550.radio.com/articles/news/sabres-okposo-feeling-great-and-ready-get-back-what-he-used-be

[WildCard]

9 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Good interview with Okposo where he acknowledges the veteran leadership issues I talked about in my opus above and endorses Botterill’s moves. Bunch of guys skating together in Buffalo. We’re getting closer to hockey.

https://wgr550.radio.com/articles/news/sabres-okposo-feeling-great-and-ready-get-back-what-he-used-be

Good stuff here. At least Jack admits he's had 'two mediocre seasons'

[Thorny]

7 hours ago, WildCard said:

Good stuff here. At least Jack admits he's had 'two mediocre seasons'

Cause of the injuries, really. 

[Drunkard]

On ‎8‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 10:11 AM, WildCard said:

Good stuff here. At least Jack admits he's had 'two mediocre seasons'

It's a shame he doesn't have a mediocre contract to match his seasons.

[pi2000]

On 8/23/2018 at 4:26 PM, Eleven said:

Besides the obvious*, who was a better choice who was out there?  He was touted by North American media as one of the best candidates.

 

*You know who I mean and you know I'm counting coaches since then, SabreSpace.

I wonder how much of the Housley hire was directed by Pegula vs Botterill.    My gut tells me Pegula already had Housley pegged before he even hired Botterill.    The Housley hire just screams Sabres fanboy.      He was the name that kept coming up amongst the fans, when in reality, any experienced hockey professional would've realized (based on Housley's lack of experience) that he simply wasn't ready for the job.     

At the time of the hire I thought it was a mistake and feel they should've given Housley the head coaching job in Rochester and brought in somebody with more experience to lead this young team.   I would've preferred somebody like Dave Tippett or Darryl Sutter, instead you had the blind leading the blind.     And here we are.  

[Scottysabres]

Good read.flagg.

While I realize the post is based on the "what we have now" asset chart, given your points on players abilities and "fit", and the aforementioned glut of roster players, what are your thoughts on JBots not being done with a move or 2 yet?

[nfreeman]

7 hours ago, pi2000 said:

I wonder how much of the Housley hire was directed by Pegula vs Botterill.    My gut tells me Pegula already had Housley pegged before he even hired Botterill.    The Housley hire just screams Sabres fanboy.      He was the name that kept coming up amongst the fans, when in reality, any experienced hockey professional would've realized (based on Housley's lack of experience) that he simply wasn't ready for the job.     

At the time of the hire I thought it was a mistake and feel they should've given Housley the head coaching job in Rochester and brought in somebody with more experience to lead this young team.   I would've preferred somebody like Dave Tippett or Darryl Sutter, instead you had the blind leading the blind.     And here we are.  

Well, by this logic, no assistant coaches would ever get hired for HC positions.

[pi2000]

31 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Well, by this logic, no assistant coaches would ever get hired for HC positions.

Rookie head coaches leading an extremely young inexperienced group is a bad combination.

[Drunkard]

10 hours ago, pi2000 said:

Rookie head coaches leading an extremely young inexperienced group is a bad combination.

I guess it's good that we unloaded O'Reilly for that basket of lesser old guys. Between Berglund, Sobotka, Pominville, Hunwick, and Okposo we're really starting to fill out the team with declining veterans.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

8 minutes ago, Alkoholist said:

I guess it's good that we unloaded O'Reilly for that basket of lesser old guys. Between Berglund, Sobotka, Pominville, Hunwick, and Okposo we're really starting to fill out the team with declining veterans.

But that is a good thing.

Let them be of some use while starting their decline and allowing the young guns to marinate a bit more. Then they force their way into the line-up through hard work.

Then the older guys come out and their contracts come off. Replaced by more talent, hopefully at a reasonable cost. 

That is what builds a real team...earn your way on to the team.

[Drunkard]

6 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

But that is a good thing.

Let them be of some use while starting their decline and allowing the young guns to marinate a bit more. Then they force their way into the line-up through hard work.

Then the older guys come out and their contracts come off. Replaced by more talent, hopefully at a reasonable cost. 

That is what builds a real team...earn your way on to the team.

I don't see it as a good thing at all.

Most of them aren't coming off the books anytime soon. Okposo has 5 years remaining on his contract (and he's already 30). Berglund has 4 years remaining (and he's already 30). Hunwick has 2 years remaining (33 now). Sobotka has 2 years remaining (31 now). Pominville (35 now) is the only one coming off the books after another year other than Moulson who is already basically gone so I didn't bother to list him to begin with. We don't need guys like that taking up cap space when Eichel is 25, Reinhart is 26, and Dahlin and Mittelstadt are no longer on ELCs.

If the team wanted to add some veterans to the roster there were other ways to do it than trading away the most consistent player we had who was in his prime and his contract didn't extend into a bunch of declining years, who also happened to be our most defensively capable forward, and our best face off guy. If you want experience on the roster that badly overpay some aging FA veterans to 1 year deals or trade some mid or low round picks for expiring deals to teams who need the cap space.

[LGR4GM]

25 minutes ago, Alkoholist said:

I don't see it as a good thing at all.

Most of them aren't coming off the books anytime soon. Okposo has 5 years remaining on his contract (and he's already 30). Berglund has 4 years remaining (and he's already 30). Hunwick has 2 years remaining (33 now). Sobotka has 2 years remaining (31 now). Pominville (35 now) is the only one coming off the books after another year other than Moulson who is already basically gone so I didn't bother to list him to begin with. We don't need guys like that taking up cap space when Eichel is 25, Reinhart is 26, and Dahlin and Mittelstadt are no longer on ELCs.

If the team wanted to add some veterans to the roster there were other ways to do it than trading away the most consistent player we had who was in his prime and his contract didn't extend into a bunch of declining years, who also happened to be our most defensively capable forward, and our best face off guy. If you want experience on the roster that badly overpay some aging FA veterans to 1 year deals or trade some mid or low round picks for expiring deals to teams who need the cap space.

Eichel is signed for the next 8 seasons. When he is 25 everyone but Okposo will be gone. 

Reinhart is coming off his ELC so definitley a concern there.When he is 26 everyone but Okposo will be gone. 

Dahlin is on his ELC for the next 3 years. Pominville, Sobotoka, and Hunwick will all be gone. 

Casey will be on his ELC for another 2 years. Pominville, Sobotoka, and Hunwick will all be gone. 

 

To the second bolded. You complained about Hunwick and Pommers. Both of them were acquired in trades as basically cap dumps so we could get Scandella and Sheary. In addition we did exactly what you said to get Skinner. We traded nothing of immediate value except maybe Pu and got a 30g scorer. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by LGR4GM

[Drunkard]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

Eichel is signed for the next 8 seasons. When he is 25 everyone but Okposo will be gone. 

Reinhart is coming off his ELC so definitley a concern there.When he is 26 everyone but Okposo will be gone. 

Dahlin is on his ELC for the next 3 years. Pominville, Sobotoka, and Hunwick will all be gone. 

Casey will be on his ELC for another 2 years. Pominville, Sobotoka, and Hunwick will all be gone. 

Splitting hairs there. I could have easily said when Eichel is 24 and Reinhart is 25. The point is we didn't need to add a bunch of veterans to multi year deals. Guys like that could have been acquired for cheaper than our second best player. We wasted the ELCs of a bunch of good young players already (Ristolainen, Eichel, and Reinhart) and the clock is ticking on the cheap years of Dahlin and Mittelstadt. I just don't like the idea of passively waiting around for the next crop of dead wood and their contracts to age off the roster.

[LGR4GM]

6 minutes ago, Alkoholist said:

Splitting hairs there. I could have easily said when Eichel is 24 and Reinhart is 25. The point is we didn't need to add a bunch of veterans to multi year deals. Guys like that could have been acquired for cheaper than our second best player. We wasted the ELCs of a bunch of good young players already (Ristolainen, Eichel, and Reinhart) and the clock is ticking on the cheap years of Dahlin and Mittelstadt. I just don't like the idea of passively waiting around for the next crop of dead wood and their contracts to age off the roster.

Eichel is still signed for 8 years no matter what age you listed. You are assuming Berglund, Sobotka, Hunwick, and Okposo (who I don't agree with at all) will be dead wood.  Combined Berglund, Sobotka, Hunwick take up 9.6 million or 12ish% of the Sabres cap.  Hunwick is probably the 7th defender. Berglund and Sobotka are good enough for the 3rd line. How is this hurting us? 

Okposo was productive just 2 seasons ago and he was terrible last year despite spending time in April in the ICU. I am more than willing to see if he rebounds. If not, then sure he can be considered a contract problem. 

Edited August 28, 2018 by LGR4GM

[WildCard]

Flagg's convinced me (if nothing else out of sheer volume of characters) that Okposo is indeed a contract problem

[Drunkard]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Eichel is still signed for 8 years no matter what age you listed. You are assuming Berglund, Sobotka, Hunwick, and Okposo (who I don't agree with at all) will be dead wood.  Combined Berglund, Sobotka, Hunwick take up 9.6 million or 12ish% of the Sabres cap.  Hunwick is probably the 7th defender. Berglund and Sobotka are good enough for the 3rd line. How is this hurting us? 

Okposo was productive just 2 seasons ago and he was terrible last year despite spending time in April in the ICU. I am more than willing to see if he rebounds. If not, then sure he can be considered a contract problem. 

I know Eichel is signed for 8 more years. I'd just rather not waste half of it waiting for Patrik Berglund's contract to come off the books.

Very few non-goalie players get better after the age of 30. The best we can probably hope for is their production to plateau which would still put most of them as overpaid relative to their production. I would have rather gone full bore with the youth movement rather than overpay for a handful of aging veterans. Guys like that are almost always available and usually for much cheaper than we paid for them.  

Edited August 28, 2018 by Alkoholist

[dudacek]

Why do people automatically assume everyone over the age of 30 is automatically a contract albatross?