Weave Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Honestly, the difference of opinion regarding Sam is so great in this conversation that I am surprised it is still going on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnRobertEichel Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 On 12/10/2018 at 8:56 AM, Huckleberry said: Still would like to see Samson tried out at 2C again, only problem is I want a good winger with him for once. That would most likely moving skinner with him and leaving Eichel with scrubs again. So would I. Everyone is assuming that Mitts will be our 2C, but I'm wondering if our second line of the future might be better with Mitts at LW, Nylander at RW, and Reinhart at C. FWIW, there are currently 60 NHL players with more points this season than Sam Reinhart. There are 93 first-line NHL forwards. So he's currently producing like a mediocre first-line NHL forward. If you think Reinhart's future is as a borderline top-6 forward, then perhaps you are just an overly negative person in general? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 FWIW, I've been a frequent critic of Reino's over the years and I think he's playing the best hockey of his career. I still think he has limitations, he's not as good as Draisaitl, he's not as good as what most would probably want from a #2 overall pick and he hasn't shown yet that he can be a consistent 5-on-5 player -- but IMHO he's still a good player on a good contract who has played very well on a high-end #1 line this season. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freester Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 hours ago, nfreeman said: FWIW, I've been a frequent critic of Reino's over the years and I think he's playing the best hockey of his career. I still think he has limitations, he's not as good as Draisaitl, he's not as good as what most would probably want from a #2 overall pick and he hasn't shown yet that he can be a consistent 5-on-5 player -- but IMHO he's still a good player on a good contract who has played very well on a high-end #1 line this season. I agree that on his current contract he's fine. However he is useless at even strength without Jack. I'm concerned that with his inflated numbers from being with Jack and on the power play will result in an Okposo type deal which would be terrible. Pommers numbers get similarly inflated and you see what happens when he gets moved off of Jacks line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 He's 3rd on the team in 5v5 points. and here are his numbers with and without Eichel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 21 minutes ago, freester said: I agree that on his current contract he's fine. However he is useless at even strength without Jack. I'm concerned that with his inflated numbers from being with Jack and on the power play will result in an Okposo type deal which would be terrible. Pommers numbers get similarly inflated and you see what happens when he gets moved off of Jacks line. This simply is not true. The 2nd is an exaggeration. Reinhart has 8ppp total and 18ev Points. So his ppp account for only 30.7% of his points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freester Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 47 minutes ago, LGR4GM said: This simply is not true. The 2nd is an exaggeration. Reinhart has 8ppp total and 18ev Points. So his ppp account for only 30.7% of his points. I was unable to decipher how many of his 18ev points occurred without Eichel. Please enlighten me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 22 minutes ago, freester said: I was unable to decipher how many of his 18ev points occurred without Eichel. Please enlighten me. You said he was useless 5v5. Prove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 hour ago, LGR4GM said: He's 3rd on the team in 5v5 points. and here are his numbers with and without Eichel Looks like we should leave them together Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmel Corn Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Sam is simply not able to dictate the play on the ice. He needs somebody else to create the opportunities and then he seems to have a knack of being able to capitalize on those actions by others. I think he is not a fit for a 2C as a result. Yes, he is better when playing with Jack, but I thought he showed some productivity too when playing with ROR late last season. That is still my point, he needs to be on the same line with a playmaker to achieve success. For the right price, keep him, but he is not worth any more than what he is getting on his new deal. I would not mind seeing him being sent off as part of a package deal to get a legit 2C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 36 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said: Sam is simply not able to dictate the play on the ice. He needs somebody else to create the opportunities and then he seems to have a knack of being able to capitalize on those actions by others. I think he is not a fit for a 2C as a result. Yes, he is better when playing with Jack, but I thought he showed some productivity too when playing with ROR late last season. That is still my point, he needs to be on the same line with a playmaker to achieve success. For the right price, keep him, but he is not worth any more than what he is getting on his new deal. I would not mind seeing him being sent off as part of a package deal to get a legit 2C. In my world, that is the definition of dictating play. Everyone needs their line mates in order to make something happen. He can't dipsy-doodle with the puck like Jack, but far too often this year we have seen jack do that to the detriment of using his line mates when he should have (mostly in transition.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmel Corn Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, SwampD said: In my world, that is the definition of dictating play. Everyone needs their line mates in order to make something happen. He can't dipsy-doodle with the puck like Jack, but far too often this year we have seen jack do that to the detriment of using his line mates when he should have (mostly in transition.) I expect a #2 overall pick of being able to dipsy-doodle and draw players towards him. Just my expectation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calti Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 42 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said: Sam is simply not able to dictate the play on the ice. He needs somebody else to create the opportunities and then he seems to have a knack of being able to capitalize on those actions by others. I think he is not a fit for a 2C as a result. Yes, he is better when playing with Jack, but I thought he showed some productivity too when playing with ROR late last season. That is still my point, he needs to be on the same line with a playmaker to achieve success. For the right price, keep him, but he is not worth any more than what he is getting on his new deal. I would not mind seeing him being sent off as part of a package deal to get a legit 2C. i agree--this team needs depth. and sam is part of the problem. line 2/3 guy and not a creator on his own. we need a strong 2c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted December 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) You know, this is an archaic form of analytics versus eye test. Reinhart’s goals and assists will never count as much as other guys because of the way he gets them and he will never be “that good” because he wasn’t worth tanking for. He’s not a star, but that doesn’t mean he’s not a very good player. If he scores 65-70 points this year - which he is pacing for - it will be one of the best statistical seasons by a Sabre in a decade, more than Chris Drury ever scored. It doesn’t matter. To some people, he will always be just another Brad Boyes. Edited December 12, 2018 by dudacek 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calti Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Just now, dudacek said: You know, this is an archaic form of analytics versus eye test. Reinhart’s goals and assists will never count as much as other guys because of the way he gets them and he will never be “that good” because he wasn’t worth tanking for. He’s not a star, but that doesn’t mean hers not a very good player. If he scores 65-70 points this year - which he is pacing for - it will be one of the best statistical seasons by a Sabre in a decade, more than Chris Drury ever scored. It doesn’t matter. To some people, he will always be just another Brad Boyes. we would all--well most of us--take a drury over a reinhardt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 8 minutes ago, calti said: we would all--well most of us--take a drury over a reinhardt. I'd take Reinhart. I think he processes the game faster than anyone currently on the team. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmel Corn Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 11 minutes ago, SwampD said: I'd take Reinhart. I think he processes the game faster than anyone currently on the team. Drury > Reinhart Not even close. I'll take leadership vs. a few less points any day. Drury made those around him better by setting the example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted December 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said: Drury > Reinhart Not even close. I'll take leadership vs. a few less points any day. Drury made those around him better by setting the example. The same guy who bolted from the team for the big city and big bucks? The guy who was carried by perhaps the deepest roster the Sabres ever had? The guy who abandoned them instead of taking care of unfinished business? The myth continues. Jack Eichel showed commitment to Buffalo. That’s leadership. Edited December 12, 2018 by dudacek 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) On 12/12/2018 at 5:15 PM, calti said: we would all--well most of us--take a drury over a reinhardt. No we all wouldn't. Drury was a leader and changed the attitude of the team and for that we are all grateful. However he was 27 already when he arrived here and in his prime. Sam is 23 and still developing. Sam is a victim of expectations. When he was drafted he was supposed to be part of the greatest 1-2 punch down the middle for the Sabres since LaFontaine and Hawerchuk. We were supposed to build around him and Eichel and have a decade of greatness. People are annoyed that he doesn't skate like the wind, isn't at center and that other players drafted after him have reached greater heights in the NHL. After all aren't 2nd over all picks supposed to be great? Sam however is meeting and surpassing most reasonable expectations. Yes, he is a complimentary player and not a franchise player (yet?). He earned a top 6 role on an NHL team at 19. He has 2 20+ goal seasons in 3 full NHL campaigns. He has improved every season. He is, like it or not, a top 2 line RW. On most NHL teams, including Buffalo, he'd be their top RW. His 26 pts ytd is 66th in the NHL for all skaters and 16th for RWs. Forwards drafted in the top 5 picks are expected to become 1st or 2nd line players. Scott Cullen, formerly of TSN.CA has been writing about draft pick values for years. No. 2 overall picks average a 7.88 in his scale. An 8 is a 1st line forward. A 7 is a top 6 forward. It looks to me that Sam is an average 2nd overall pick. (10's are generational players - McDavid and Dahlin; 9's are elite - Eichel). It seems to me that Sam is providing great value at only 3.6 for this year and next. Edited December 15, 2018 by GASabresIUFAN 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 Well, I defended Reino upthread but I don't see how any serious observer wouldn't much rather have Drury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 I think our Briere and Drury are going to end up being Skinner and Mitts... although Mitts is still developing. Remember that when we had them, they were in their prime. Honestly Reino may be more of a Hecht: Swiss Army Knife you move around the lineup to fill a need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmel Corn Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 21 minutes ago, dudacek said: The same guy who bolted from the team for the big city and big bucks? The guy who was carried by perhaps the deepest roster the Sabres ever had? The guy who abandoned them instead of taking care of unfinished business? The myth continues. Jack Eichel showed commitment to Buffalo. That’s leadership. That has nothing to do with this argument. You don't think Sam would bolt for another offer? I make the comparison based on what they did on ice. Drury's decision was a business one in the off-season. His leadership was no myth. Drury was the kind of captain who made players like Reinhart play better...not the other way around. Did you ever consider that deepest roster played like a President's cup team because the players had the influences to do so? If Sam plays a full season like he did the his second half of last year, then I might feel differently. He is getting better stats because he is playing with two stud players who help elevate his game. If you put him down a line or two, I say he disappears again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted December 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 I’d put Drury ahead of Sam right now, but I will also point out that when Drury was Sam’s age he was on his way to a 20 goal 44 point season sheltered on an elite team. We’ll see where Sam is at 30. They are both good, not great players. The main difference between Sam Reinhart and Chris Drury is a Little League title, some good copy writers, and a scowl. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 45 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said: Drury > Reinhart Not even close. I'll take leadership vs. a few less points any day. Drury made those around him better by setting the example. Ask Randall. Sam makes everyone he plays with better. 42 minutes ago, dudacek said: The same guy who bolted from the team for the big city and big bucks? The guy who was carried by perhaps the deepest roster the Sabres ever had? The guy who abandoned them instead of taking care of unfinished business? The myth continues. Jack Eichel showed commitment to Buffalo. That’s leadership. The myth definitely continues. I don't even care about all that. I just think Sam's better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheektorado Posted December 12, 2018 Report Share Posted December 12, 2018 IF Skinner is in the cards to sign with the Sabres I just don't see the future of the 1st line being Skinner/Jack/Samson. Jack and Skinner are the duo that are lighting it up and complimenting each other. Just seems to me that Samson has to be one of the keys for the 2nd line duo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.