2018 - 2019 Sabres Prospects

[tom webster]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

It's almost like when I told everyone for months the prospect pool was a bare cupboard and we needed to use picks to restock it I wasn't wrong. 

No, you were.

[apuszczalowski]

On 3/24/2019 at 12:52 PM, Crusader1969 said:

UPL doing UPL stuff

https://mobile.twitter.com/ohlhockey/status/1109858996695916545

Yup, talked about him a few posts up from this, he has looked good in the OHL, a place that Botteril seems to hate though....

[dudacek]

I’m pretty sure Botterill had a hand in bringing both UPL and Pekar the OHL this year.

[apuszczalowski]

6 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

It's almost like when I told everyone for months the prospect pool was a bare cupboard and we needed to use picks to restock it I wasn't wrong. 

That's what happens in a rebuild and your top picks are moved into the NHL roster. Their top picks have all been put on the NHL roster recently and dont count as prospects anymore.

[apuszczalowski]

Just now, dudacek said:

I’m pretty sure Botterill had a hand in bringing both UPL and Pekar the OHL this year.

But I think that was because it was his only option, he has said before he doesnt like guys from there in the draft (Canadian leagues) because of the rules requiring them to be in the NHL or sent back to juniors

[LGR4GM]

57 minutes ago, tom webster said:

No, you were.

No, I wasn't. 

 

Isn't this fun!

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

My drat picks chart says the 28th pick is worth about 15.6 points.  https://www.broadstreethockey.com/2013/4/25/4262594/nhl-draft-pick-value-trading-up

If we can get a pick from 31 to 35 (picks 35 is worth 11.31), then the second pick should be in the 50 to 55 range.

I also wouldn't mind trading the 1st for a 2nd this season and a 2nd rd pick from last year's draft.  

 

I don't agree with whatever chart you're referencing. Especially in this draft. 

I disagree 1000 percent about trading this year's first. That's most unwise to get a lesser talent. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by LGR4GM

[dudacek]

I was fully in favour of trading one of our three firsts for an emerging young player. With the Montour deal done, I am much less willing to deal our 2nd first unless it's a similar deal for what is clearly a better return than Montour (who I like).

With our top pick almost certainly settling in the top 10, I struggle to see a scenario where I'd be happy moving that one. Marner? Point? Sure, but a realistic scenario?

[tom webster]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

No, I wasn't. 

 

Isn't this fun!

I don't agree with whatever chart you're referencing. Especially in this draft. 

I disagree 1000 percent about trading this year's first. That's most unwise to get a lesser talent. 

It’s kind of fun. I’ll take Montour over your prospect and Guhle.

And(terrible start to a sentence) I would trade the remaining three picks for a similar return with the one caveat being if they won the lottery this year and you can guarantee me the resulting pick would be a slam dunk, day one contributor.

 

This team is past waiting in prospects. 

[LGR4GM]

6 minutes ago, tom webster said:

It’s kind of fun. I’ll take Montour over your prospect and Guhle.

And(terrible start to a sentence) I would trade the remaining three picks for a similar return with the one caveat being if they won the lottery this year and you can guarantee me the resulting pick would be a slam dunk, day one contributor.

 

This team is past waiting in prospects. 

Glad you don't run the team. Trading our first is an awful idea. I have no problem with the Montour trade. 

If you'd trade the remaining 3 picks, there's only 2, for Montour or a similar player, that's awful. But i've covered all this. We don't agree. 

[tom webster]

22 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Glad you don't run the team. Trading our first is an awful idea. I have no problem with the Montour trade. 

If you'd trade the remaining 3 picks, there's only 2, for Montour or a similar player, that's awful. But i've covered all this. We don't agree. 

I’m including next year’s, thus 3. 

And(again that word) I would obviously expect more for this year’s number one but a 23-35 year old second pair defenseman or second line forward for San Jose’s and Buffalo’s next year, sign me up!

[LGR4GM]

13 minutes ago, tom webster said:

I’m including next year’s, thus 3. 

And(again that word) I would obviously expect more for this year’s number one but a 23-35 year old second pair defenseman or second line forward for San Jose’s and Buffalo’s next year, sign me up!

I couldn't disagree more with this if I tried. Just a terrible idea. Sounds like a tim murray trade. 

[Tondas]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

Not my opinion, but an answer to your question: the scouting community loves his shot but isn’t convinced he will be able to unleash it in the NHL. He’s small and weak, and his quickness, battle and hockey sense aren’t good enough to compensate.

And, as GA says, he’s already 23.

Sounds like a perfect fit for our Buffalo Sabres.

[Crusader1969]

14 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I couldn't disagree more with this if I tried. Just a terrible idea. Sounds like a tim murray trade. 

Sounds worse than Murray.  

[Brawndo]

11 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I couldn't disagree more with this if I tried. Just a terrible idea. Sounds like a tim murray trade. 

Absolutely, this team is not in a position to trade their firsts in 2019 or 2020. Particularly with the 2020 Draft’s Depth. 

They are going to need players on their ELCs to fill in roster spots, when Eichel, Samson, Skinner and Dahlin are on max contracts 

[tom webster]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I couldn't disagree more with this if I tried. Just a terrible idea. Sounds like a tim murray trade. 

Maybe you can list all the pivotal prospects that played a role in the Blackhawks Cups after they acquired Kane, Toews and Keith or Pittsburgh after Crosby, Malkin and Letang?

The way it works in the Cap era is you draft your three or four core, surround them with the right players, hope you get lucky with a draft pick or two and go for it. Then you try and retool as the run ends. If you are waiting for late first round picks to develop all you are guaranteeing is a third GM trying to fulfill the Tanks legacy.

[LGR4GM]

9 hours ago, tom webster said:

Maybe you can list all the pivotal prospects that played a role in the Blackhawks Cups after they acquired Kane, Toews and Keith or Pittsburgh after Crosby, Malkin and Letang?

The way it works in the Cap era is you draft your three or four core, surround them with the right players, hope you get lucky with a draft pick or two and go for it. Then you try and retool as the run ends. If you are waiting for late first round picks to develop all you are guaranteeing is a third GM trying to fulfill the Tanks legacy.

You do this research. If you think this is accurate go take a look at the players that contributed to their cup runs. Without even looking, I can think of several first round picks by both teams you did not list. But I sure as hell will not do the research for you. You made the claim, find the proof. 

As to the bolded, how do you get them? It is interesting how many draft picks, especially firsts you left off. Not to mention you want to trade this years first which will be high and next years first which may also be high.  We need players, it is as simple as that. I prefer my way, you prefer the Tim Murray way. Hence we disagree. 

[tom webster]

First, you are starting to sound agitated, and that’s not my intent. I’ve said before, you are one my go to posters. I just think you over value prospects, especially late first rounders.

Second, didn’t say I wanted to trade pick but I would for a second line forward below the age of 25.

 

And I’ll do the research, so far all 3 Blackhawks champions appear to have no one but I did it quick so I’ll double check.

Edited March 26, 2019 by tom webster

[LGR4GM]

25 minutes ago, tom webster said:

First, you are starting to sound agitated, and that’s not my intent. I’ve said before, you are one my go to posters. I just think you over value prospects, especially late first rounders.

Second, didn’t say I wanted to trade pick but I would for a second line forward below the age of 25.

 

And I’ll do the research, so far 2010 Blackhawks appear to have no one but I did it quick so I’ll double check.

Did not intend to sound agitated. Re-reading that though I could understand why so sorry for that. 

The pens had multiple first round picks and prospects they developed on their cup teams. A major reason other than Bylsma they didn't win for years is because they didn't have the talent to do it. Chicago added young talent every year and that helped them. Then they stopped being able to do it and we see the slide. Under 25 is too old at this point. We need under 23.  We are 2 years away from the playoffs. Next year will be slightly better but then we are another year before we will field a deep enough team. Imagine adding Turcotte to that deep enough team. It would be awesome. I think part of my issue is I don't care about next years team because that isn't the cup team. i care about 2-4 years. It is why I hated the Lehner trade, I wanted Boeser because in 2019 we would be here with him. It's just a different philosophy. 

[LGR4GM]

Note, I am not saying 2 years from now we are a cup team but a playoff team. 

[tom webster]

A) I hated Lehner trade as well

B) I agree 2-4 years out is the window and I don’t see getting meaningful contributions in that span from any prospect other then a top 5 this year

C) people keep talking about Blackhawks slide and I smile. They won 3 Cups, have started to retool and could be back in contention in a year or two. Give me those problems

D) I think you’d be surprised if you look at the rosters of the 3 Blackhawks champs and the last Penguins one. I’ve only had time to check those four and they are not loaded with former number ones besides their core.

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, tom webster said:

A) I hated Lehner trade as well

B) I agree 2-4 years out is the window and I don’t see getting meaningful contributions in that span from any prospect other then a top 5 this year

C) people keep talking about Blackhawks slide and I smile. They won 3 Cups, have started to retool and could be back in contention in a year or two. Give me those problems

D) I think you’d be surprised if you look at the rosters of the 3 Blackhawks champs and the last Penguins one. I’ve only had time to check those four and they are not loaded with former number ones besides their core.

They won't. They don't have the centers or defenders to do that. Once Kane starts to go, that's it. 

They are loaded with first round picks and 2nd round picks. A couple late round guys sprinkled in. Until Buffalo proves they can draft, those late round guys are a pipe dream. Thankfully we are finally seeing signs we might be better at drafting but adding 1st round level talent is still the best bet. Also if we are good at drafting, adding 1st round talent means we are hitting on even better players. 

[LGR4GM]

Nicholas Robertson is the type of player we should be thinking about when we talk about drafting better. Undersized guy, great motor, great shot, youngest guy in the draft. Those are the guys you need to add to the pipeline who can suddenly appear in 2-3 years and contribute. Borgen is a good example of that now if he makes it. 

[tom webster]

Let me ask you this. In this year’s class how many are sure fire guys and of that, how many will play from day 1?

Edited March 26, 2019 by tom webster

[GASabresIUFAN]

By the way, the Blackhawks were built w good drafting. The core group of Kane, Toews, Seabrook, Crawford, Keith, Byfuglien, Bolland, Shaw, Hjarlmalsson, Saad were all Chicago draft picks.  Most were not 1st rd picks and some, like big Buf were late rd picks.  

Chicago was bad for decades before bottoming out in 2006 and 2007 to get Toews and Kane.  By that time Seabrook, Keith, Bolland, Crawford, Hjarlmsson, and Byfuglien had already been drafted and were developing in the system. Hossa (2009), Campbell (2008) and Sharp (2006) were brought in once everyone else was in place

Toronto was awful for years.  Schenn (5th overall in 2008 - traded for JVR in 2012). Kadri (7th overall in 2009), Brown, Gauthier, and Reilly (5th overall in 2012) were all drafted and in the system before Toronto hit pay dirt with Nylander (2014), Marner (2015) and Matthews (2016).  Guys like Tavares, Marleau, and Muzzin have all been brought in once everyone else was in place.

Neither of these rebuilds were overnight sensations.  

This is how our rebuild went wrong.  TM kept putting the cart in front on the horse.  He brought in mature players, instead of building the darn pipeline, building a core through the draft like Pitt, Chi, TB and Toronto did and then supplementing from there.

The sad part of this mess is that if TM had stuck with the development plan we’d probably have a very good deep team right now.

Pysyk, McNabb, Armia, Grigorenko, Girgensons, McCabe, Ullmark, Ristolainen, Zadorov, Compher, McCabe, Cal Petersen, had all been drafted before TM became the GM.  Now add Eichel, Reinhart, Lemieux, and guys like Cernak, and possibly 3 of guys like Boeser, Konecny, Beauviller, Christian Fischer (who is doing a good job for AZ), and Aho with the picks he traded away. 

[apuszczalowski]

5 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

By the way, the Blackhawks were built w good drafting. The core group of Kane, Toews, Seabrook, Crawford, Keith, Byfuglien, Bolland, Shaw, Hjarlmalsson, Saad were all Chicago draft picks.  Most were not 1st rd picks and some, like big Buf were late rd picks.  

Chicago was bad for decades before bottoming out in 2006 and 2007 to get Toews and Kane.  By that time Seabrook, Keith, Bolland, Crawford, Hjarlmsson, and Byfuglien had already been drafted and were developing in the system. Hossa (2009), Campbell (2008) and Sharp (2006) were brought in once everyone else was in place

Toronto was awful for years.  Schenn (5th overall in 2008 - traded for JVR in 2012). Kadri (7th overall in 2009), Brown, Gauthier, and Reilly (5th overall in 2012) were all drafted and in the system before Toronto hit pay dirt with Nylander (2014), Marner (2015) and Matthews (2016).  Guys like Tavares, Marleau, and Muzzin have all been brought in once everyone else was in place.

Neither of these rebuilds were overnight sensations.  

This is how our rebuild went wrong.  TM kept putting the cart in front on the horse.  He brought in mature players, instead of building the darn pipeline, building a core through the draft like Pitt, Chi, TB and Toronto did and then supplementing from there.

The sad part of this mess is that if TM had stuck with the development plan we’d probably have a very good deep team right now.

Pysyk, McNabb, Armia, Grigorenko, Girgensons, McCabe, Ullmark, Ristolainen, Zadorov, Compher, McCabe, Cal Petersen, had all been drafted before TM became the GM.  Now add Eichel, Reinhart, Lemieux, and guys like Cernak, and possibly 3 of guys like Boeser, Konecny, Beauviller, Christian Fischer (who is doing a good job for AZ), and Aho with the picks he traded away. 

Looking at more then half the list you have of guys that were drafted before TM just scream Meh.......

I dont see many of them lighting up the league and forcing the Sabres to regret trading them away.

TMs problem wasnt speeding up the rebuild, he obtained real talent for what he gave up, the problem was he was a horrible negotiator who have up way too much to get what he fell on love with. Add to that bad coaching, and the Sabres being unable/unwilling to keep the talent acquired around and you get a team chasing its tail and looking horrible. A 1st was too much to give up for an unproven goalie coming up serious concussion issues. Way too much was given up to acquire Kane, who should have been had for very little since the Sabres were one of the only ones that would trade for him prior to the deadline knowing he would be out the rest of the year, after it was very well known he wouldnt be coming back to the Jets. Then, they trade away Kane for less then they spent to get him cause they didnt want to pay for someone to score goals, trade away O'Reily for almost nothing without much of a backup plan for a 2nd C, and let Lehner walk only to find out his issues were mental and substance abuse.

It's harder to rebuild and get better when you are constantly spinning your wheels trying to replace talent you gave away for nothing. Botts problem is he is too methodical, he has to over think things and over evaluate things before making decisions. We keep hearing how they are still evaluating guys on the roster, and now theres a good chance Skinner could be let go for nothing because he wanted to make extra sure that he would do well before talking extension instead of working on a deal early on. GMs have to rely on their gut and make their evaluations based on what someone has already done or else they get screwed. If he didnt think Skinner was worth keeping around long term, why trade for him in the first place? We all knew he was a good player, and no one expected him to play the way he has, but they could have signed him to a much more reasonable deal when they made the trade then what he is going to get now.