2018 - 2019 Sabres Prospects

[GASabresIUFAN]

28 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

Looking at more then half the list you have of guys that were drafted before TM just scream Meh.......

I dont see many of them lighting up the league and forcing the Sabres to regret trading them away.

TMs problem wasnt speeding up the rebuild, he obtained real talent for what he gave up, the problem was he was a horrible negotiator who have up way too much to get what he fell on love with. Add to that bad coaching, and the Sabres being unable/unwilling to keep the talent acquired around and you get a team chasing its tail and looking horrible. A 1st was too much to give up for an unproven goalie coming up serious concussion issues. Way too much was given up to acquire Kane, who should have been had for very little since the Sabres were one of the only ones that would trade for him prior to the deadline knowing he would be out the rest of the year, after it was very well known he wouldnt be coming back to the Jets. Then, they trade away Kane for less then they spent to get him cause they didnt want to pay for someone to score goals, trade away O'Reily for almost nothing without much of a backup plan for a 2nd C, and let Lehner walk only to find out his issues were mental and substance abuse.

It's harder to rebuild and get better when you are constantly spinning your wheels trying to replace talent you gave away for nothing. Botts problem is he is too methodical, he has to over think things and over evaluate things before making decisions. We keep hearing how they are still evaluating guys on the roster, and now theres a good chance Skinner could be let go for nothing because he wanted to make extra sure that he would do well before talking extension instead of working on a deal early on. GMs have to rely on their gut and make their evaluations based on what someone has already done or else they get screwed. If he didnt think Skinner was worth keeping around long term, why trade for him in the first place? We all knew he was a good player, and no one expected him to play the way he has, but they could have signed him to a much more reasonable deal when they made the trade then what he is going to get now.

You say “ Meh” and I say depth. Depth is the key.  You keep the picks and hit on Boeser and Beauvillier now have a lineup of

??? Eichel Boeser

Compher Beauvillier Reinhart

Lemieux Erod Armia

Foligno Girgensons Larsson

McCabe Ristolainen

Pysyk Zadorov

McNabb Cernak

Ullmark Petersen

That doesn’t mean some of this players aren’t moved out or replaced depending on how the 2016, 2017 and 2018 drafts and contracts go, but this is a pretty solid place to start from and in some ways this is a better team then we are fielding right now with the exceptions of Skinner and Dahlin.   Both guys might still be here, especially Skinner as that is the one area we’re the draft model left a hole. The D could be a little better and the goaltending would be about the same, but with better upside.  The team would also be younger, cheaper, with even more cap space this off-season to add pieces like Toronto and Chicago did.

By the way TM’s decision to acquire the youngish vets to quickly build a core destroyed the organizational depth and our cap situation.  He got talent back, but only 2 of which, Kane and ROR, played near to their potential but cost us 9 players who could be in our lineup now. He also failed to get any real value for McNabb and 2 2nds, plus lost Pysyk for nothing as well. The 9 players are Pysyk, Lemieux, Armia, McNabb, Cernak, Compher, Zadorov, and potentially Boeser and Beauvillier).  My guess is the salaries for all 9 of these players are less the ROR and Kane combined, yet Boeser, Beauvillier and Compher have over 50 goals and 110 pts ytd.  Kane and ROR for nearly 16 mill have 56 goals and 68 assists ytd.

Edited March 26, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[shrader]

Or he could have kept the draft picks and used them on the wrong guys and they'd be even worse off than they are now.  Nothing about Murray's draft record screams to me that he would have gotten it done with anything beyond the very early pick.  Being generous, outside of his early picks, he landed about 3 cases of uncertainty.  He could have taken this guy, he could have taken that guy.  Sure, but he also could have taken any number of the questionable guys within that range as well.

But apus pretty much nailed it.  The problem wasn't trying to accelerate the process, it was blindly overpaying for everything.  I will never understand how with the goalie market was that season, how Murray wound up paying more than anyone else for probably one of the more questionable players available.  But hey, we also got David Legwand.  That was his other issue, he was too easily convinced to add on a couple extra JAGs to every trade.

[LGR4GM]

52 minutes ago, tom webster said:

Let me ask you this. In this year’s class how many are sure fire guys and of that, how many will play from day 1?

2 players will play day 1. 

The first part of the question is a kobayshi maru. I will say 20 guys in this draft are sure things and you can expect about another 20-30 to be impact players (over 100 games and actually contribute somehow) with another 10-20 as fringe guys. 

[apuszczalowski]

1 minute ago, shrader said:

Or he could have kept the draft picks and used them on the wrong guys and they'd be even worse off than they are now.  Nothing about Murray's draft record screams to me that he would have gotten it done with anything beyond the very early pick.  Being generous, outside of his early picks, he landed about 3 cases of uncertainty.  He could have taken this guy, he could have taken that guy.  Sure, but he also could have taken any number of the questionable guys within that range as well.

But apus pretty much nailed it.  The problem wasn't trying to accelerate the process, it was blindly overpaying for everything.  I will never understand how with the goalie market was that season, how Murray wound up paying more than anyone else for probably one of the more questionable players available.  But hey, we also got David Legwand.  That was his other issue, he was too easily convinced to add on a couple extra JAGs to every trade.

I agree, in hindsight you can assume they would have taken certain players with those picks, but they could have also taken one of the many other players taken around that spot.

And yes, those guys arent any better then depth, which isnt great because you can get depth anywhere. They need players who can make an impact outside of needing to get them in the top couple spots of the draft. 

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

I agree, in hindsight you can assume they would have taken certain players with those picks, but they could have also taken one of the many other players taken around that spot.

And yes, those guys arent any better then depth, which isnt great because you can get depth anywhere. They need players who can make an impact outside of needing to get them in the top couple spots of the draft. 

You don't have a chance at all of getting those guys unless you keep that pick, which we didn't do. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Actually in 2015 it would have been hard to even TM to blow it.  From 21 to 35 (he traded away 3 picks in this area), 4 very good to excellent players have emerged in Beauvillier, Aho, Konecny and Boeser, as well as solid NHlers like Fischer, Dermott, Roslovic, and White, but the others like Carlsson, Roy, Merkley, Stephens and others who are now now in the NHL or having very good AHL seasons and look to be NHLers next season.  At worst we’d still have 3 very good prospects, but more likely we’d have on top end player, one other NHLer and a prospect.  

 

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

This is for this entire page of the biggest BS ....

 

[Thorny]

7 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Did not intend to sound agitated. Re-reading that though I could understand why so sorry for that. 

The pens had multiple first round picks and prospects they developed on their cup teams. A major reason other than Bylsma they didn't win for years is because they didn't have the talent to do it. Chicago added young talent every year and that helped them. Then they stopped being able to do it and we see the slide. Under 25 is too old at this point. We need under 23.  We are 2 years away from the playoffs. Next year will be slightly better but then we are another year before we will field a deep enough team. Imagine adding Turcotte to that deep enough team. It would be awesome. I think part of my issue is I don't care about next years team because that isn't the cup team. i care about 2-4 years. It is why I hated the Lehner trade, I wanted Boeser because in 2019 we would be here with him. It's just a different philosophy. 

I love adding drafted talent as well but I really hope this isn't Botterill's plan. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Thorny

[Crusader1969]

9 hours ago, tom webster said:

Let me ask you this. In this year’s class how many are sure fire guys and of that, how many will play from day 1?

Why would it matter if they play year 1 or year 2?  

Sure fire is 8-10

[Brawndo]

The Hockey News released it’s fastest rising prospects and UPL headlines the list going from outside the Top 100 to 21st.

 

https://thehockeynews.com/news/article/future-watch-2019-the-nhls-top-10-rising-prospects

 

[dudacek]

I'm probably guilty of looking for a life raft to cling to, but Olofsson looked like he could play. And I see more in Nylander, Pilut and Borgen than I've seen from any Rochester call-ups in years. Small sample size and it's not like they blew me away, but they look like they know how to play hockey.

When was the last time we had a Rochester graduate turn into a real contributor? McCabe, four years ago? Before that Foligno?

Hell, even in the last years of Darcy we had Weber and Ennis and Gerbe. Pysyk, McNabb and Armia turned into NHL players, but that didn't happen with us. Larsson is fringe.

It feels like the tank really beat the crap out our farm system.

Can at least one of Botterill's initiatives bear fruit?

[tom webster]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I'm probably guilty of looking for a life raft to cling to, but Olofsson looked like he could play. And I see more in Nylander, Pilut and Borgen than I've seen from any Rochester call-ups in years. Small sample size and it's not like they blew me away, but they look like they know how to play hockey.

When was the last time we had a Rochester graduate turn into a real contributor? McCabe, four years ago? Before that Foligno?

Hell, even in the last years of Darcy we had Weber and Ennis and Gerbe. Pysyk, McNabb and Armia turned into NHL players, but that didn't happen with us. Larsson is fringe.

It feels like the tank really beat the crap out our farm system.

Can at least one of Botterill's initiatives bear fruit?

Remember, 3 if the 4 guys you referenced in first paragraph  were GMTM picks.

Edited March 29, 2019 by tom webster

[Brawndo]

4 hours ago, tom webster said:

Remember, 3 if the 4 guys you referenced in first paragraph  were GMTM picks.

Absolutely and Botterill has multiple occasions that Murray and his staff left some good talent in prospect pool. 

On the radio this AM, Brayton Wilson who also covers the Amerks as their radio host,mentioned that Olofsson has improved his all around game from being an offensive specialist to being played in all situations including PK in Rochester.

Botterill, Sexton and Chris Taylor have set up what appears to be a good development pathway in Rochester. 

[Crusader1969]

More UPL

https://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/2019/03/28/sudbury-wolves-goaltender-luukkonen-leads-list-of-international-talent-on-display-in-chl-playoffs.html

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Absolutely and Botterill has multiple occasions that Murray and his staff left some good talent in prospect pool. 

On the radio this AM, Brayton Wilson who also covers the Amerks as their radio host,mentioned that Olofsson has improved his all around game from being an offensive specialist to being played in all situations including PK in Rochester.

Botterill, Sexton and Chris Taylor have set up what appears to be a good development pathway in Rochester. 

So let’s fire him, dump his plan for the Sabres and start again because he traded ROR. 

[tom webster]

I believe JBOT has made three egregious errors in judgement;

1) Hiring Housley

2) The ROR trade

3) Doing nothing as the team free falled(sorry)

Thst being said, I’ve softened my stance on firing him dependent on how he handles the coaching situation.

[North Buffalo]

Off season unloads will be important too.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 hour ago, tom webster said:

I believe JBOT has made three egregious errors in judgement;

1) Hiring Housley

2) The ROR trade

3) Doing nothing as the team free falled(sorry)

Thst being said, I’ve softened my stance on firing him dependent on how he handles the coaching situation.

None of these are egregious errors.  

1) PH was a hot coaching prospect when hired after doing a very good job as an asst in Nashville.  The system they play in Nash is what Jbot wanted here and therefore the decision made sense then and now.  

2 & 3) I agree that it left a huge hole in our lineup, made even bigger when Berglund walked out the door.  However there was clearly an issue behind the scenes.  Either he wanted out or the KP/TP wanted him gone or both.  I think he tried to make the best out of a terrible situation.  Where you can fault him (and I do) was not making another move at that time or when Berglund walked to bolster the center position.  However, it’s probable that there was no reasonable replaced to be acquired at a price we could afford mid-season.

As we've seen with the Amerks and the recent call ups from the Amerks with the play of Nylander and Olofsson, Jbot is the first GM we have had since the early days of DR that has a real development plan for our prospects and therefore a long-term development plan for the Sabres.  

Frankly to toss Jbot 2 years into the first intelligent rebuild of this team is ridiculous.  I’m as disappointed with this season as everyone else, but we need to and should give him a legit chance to build this team.  

Edited March 29, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[tom webster]

9 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

None of these are egregious errors.  

1) PH was a hot coaching prospect when hired after doing a very good job as an asst in Nashville.  The system they play in Nash is what Jbot wanted here and therefore the decision made sense then and now.  

2 & 3) I agree that it left a huge hole in our lineup, made even bigger when Berglund walked out the door.  However there was clearly an issue behind the scenes.  Either he wanted out or the KP/TP wanted him gone or both.  I think he tried to make the best out of a terrible situation.  Where you can fault him (and I do) was not making another move at that time or when Berglund walked to bolster the center position.  However, it’s probable that there was no reasonable replaced to be acquired at a price we could afford mid-season.

As we've seen with the Amerks and the recent call ups from the Amerks with the play of Nylander and Olofsson, Jbot is the first GM we have had since the early days of DR that has a real development plan for our prospects and therefore a long-term development plan for the Sabres.  

Frankly to toss Jbot 2 years into the first intelligent rebuild of this team is ridiculous.  I’m as disappointed with this season as everyone else, but we need to and should give him a legit chance to build this team.  

1) Housley was not a hot commodity. 

2) You have to get a better return 

3) I’m not a big believer in the AHL development plan. There is no scientific method to prove that guys get better because they played in the AHL or just because they got older, stronger and more mature. For every guy that got better playing in the minors, there are hundreds that just stay as they are, not good enough.

4) JBOT has a lot to prove but so far this team has been considerably worse then they were the prior two years.

 

 

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

21 minutes ago, tom webster said:

1) Housley was not a hot commodity.  Incorrect! https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/florida-panthers/fl-sp-panthers-coaching-candidates-20170413-story.html

2) You have to get a better return  You have no idea what Tage will develop into or who we get with the 1st and how that person develops, unless that pick turns into Montour.  If that is the case and Tage develops, we end up with cap space, a top two pairing D (who is already proving an upgrade of what we had) and possibly a top 6 power forward.  That is a pretty solid return for ROR.

3) I’m not a big believer in the AHL development plan. There is no scientific method to prove that guys get better because they played in the AHL or just because they got older, stronger and more mature. For every guy that got better playing in the minors, there are hundreds that just stay as they are, not good enough.    I'll give you four examples from recent Sabres history; Brian Campbell, Ryan Miller, Jason Pominville and Derek Roy.  While not every guy gets better, many do.  From this year alone, Nylander and Olofsson are better hockey players today then they were to start the season.  AHL development works and has worked for decades, which is why the league has endured for 80 years.

4) JBOT has a lot to prove but so far this team has been considerably worse then they were the prior two years.  Jbot inherited an overpaid underachieving team and he has had the task of rebuilding the team properly through draft and development.  Yes, he has a lot to prove, but he actually has a plan as opposed to the failed administration of TM who traded away our depth and build an $80 mill (real $) team, which was the 4th most expensive team in the NHL, yet finished with 78 points.  

 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by GASabresIUFAN

[tom webster]

A) wow, Housley got mentioned in an article in Florida. Find me one mention of him getting another interview or an explanation as to how JBOT waited and still got him from all the teams that wanted him. On top of that, the writer was so in tune with the organization, he didn’t mention the guy who got the job, hired while Housley was still available I might add.

B) it’s essentially ROR and Guhle for Montador and Thompson. Only reason there is any benefit in cap space is because he lucked out with Berglund leaving.

C) you know what else happens to players like Campbell , Roy and others? They got older. And you have no idea if Vic and Alex are any better for being down there. Old school guys would like you to believe that. They’d also like you to believe that fighting and plus/minus are important.

D) So far JBOT hasn’t improved the team at all other then tanking and allowing them to get Dahlin which may go down as his greatest achievement. I believe we are in the playoffs if GMTM is still here but probably no Dahlin do maybe it’s all worth it

Edited March 30, 2019 by tom webster

[North Buffalo]

Tom, I will have to disagree about making the playoffs if TM was in charge... he was an arrogant drunk... decent scout that couldn't evaluate actual talent in the NHL and overpaid for them.  Lehner.. too many alcohol pysch issue that needed to be addressed... ROR to a lesser extent... can't have a practicing alchy helping practicing alchy's quit.  They usually have psych issues raise their ugly head and torpedo everything they are doing. 

JBOT looks like he does have a decent eye but needs some time to build a decimated core and farm system... Housley has good ideas, but not sure he is the communicator/motivator and he needs to be and able to eval on the fly. 

Worst thing that could have happened to all of the Sabres was that early 10 game win streak... they got big headed...

The Montour trade was great imo and Sabres need to add 1-2 more like him.  Laaksonen could be one... Borgen looks like a tough compliment... bring back McCabe as a mentor and trade Risto, Scandella and keep Bogo as 7th D... Nelson... meh. 

Draft forwards and then a goalie and develop, develop, develop.  

And find a coach that knows how to deal with a young team. 

Not saying this all happened the way anyone wanted and I think ROR could with some patience been traded for more over time, but there was something off about him... it was time... 

[Brawndo]

6 hours ago, tom webster said:

A) wow, Housley got mentioned in an article in Florida. Find me one mention of him getting another interview or an explanation as to how JBOT waited and still got him from all the teams that wanted him. On top of that, the writer was so in tune with the organization, he didn’t mention the guy who got the job, hired while Housley was still available I might add.

B) it’s essentially ROR and Guhle for Montador and Thompson. Only reason there is any benefit in cap space is because he lucked out with Berglund leaving.

C) you know what else happens to players like Campbell , Roy and others? They got older. And you have no idea if Vic and Alex are any better for being down there. Old school guys would like you to believe that. They’d also like you to believe that fighting and plus/minus are important.

D) So far JBOT hasn’t improved the team at all other then tanking and allowing them to get Dahlin which may go down as his greatest achievement. I believe we are in the playoffs if GMTM is still here but probably no Dahlin do maybe it’s all worth it

Friedman, Dreger, Johnson, McKenzie, LeBrun, whether it be on Twitter, Insider Trading, Saturday Night Headlines or various radio hits, all reported during the 2017 Coaching Search that Housley was one of the Top of the candidates on that list . An advisory committee from the NHL assisted the Pegulas in their search for a new GM and Coach, both  Botterill and Housely were high on those lists.  Housley hired an agent at the beginning of the 2017 Playoffs and with Nashville’s Permission he began screening various openings

And ROR should have brought back a better return package, but the rumor persists that the Sabres refused to pay the bonus, thereby reducing the return and the number of trade partners willing to deal. Carolina for example wanted a deal after the bonus was paid, Buffalo said no to this. The question is whose decision was it to not pay the bonus, Botterill or The Pegulas? 

Olofosson is certainly better for being in Rochester. His defensive play and play away from the puck needed work. Media that watches the team as well as Chris Taylor, Randy Sexton and Botterill all said the thing. 

GMTM if still here, there is a greater chance the Depth or the organization would be further depleted then it already is. The question that should be asked is where would this team be if PLF would have suggested hiring Botterill after he interviewed him rather than GMTM. Because I highly doubt all those 2015 Draft Picks would have been traded/

[tom webster]

3 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Friedman, Dreger, Johnson, McKenzie, LeBrun, whether it be on Twitter, Insider Trading, Saturday Night Headlines or various radio hits, all reported during the 2017 Coaching Search that Housley was one of the Top of the candidates on that list . An advisory committee from the NHL assisted the Pegulas in their search for a new GM and Coach, both  Botterill and Housely were high on those lists.  Housley hired an agent at the beginning of the 2017 Playoffs and with Nashville’s Permission he began screening various openings

And ROR should have brought back a better return package, but the rumor persists that the Sabres refused to pay the bonus, thereby reducing the return and the number of trade partners willing to deal. Carolina for example wanted a deal after the bonus was paid, Buffalo said no to this. The question is whose decision was it to not pay the bonus, Botterill or The Pegulas? 

Olofosson is certainly better for being in Rochester. His defensive play and play away from the puck needed work. Media that watches the team as well as Chris Taylor, Randy Sexton and Botterill all said the thing. 

GMTM if still here, there is a greater chance the Depth or the organization would be further depleted then it already is. The question that should be asked is where would this team be if PLF would have suggested hiring Botterill after he interviewed him rather than GMTM. Because I highly doubt all those 2015 Draft Picks would have been traded/

Ok, I’ll concede that people were talking about Housley. Who else interviewed him? The major point, however, is why did JBOT choose him? Even a cursory interview would have revealed he has no grasp of the information available to him. The sport is on the verge of technological epiphany and there is no evidence that he even knows whose playing well during a period. 

The ROR thing is debatable but the bottom line is the return leaves a lot to be desired. In his case, I have to believe a better coach handles that situation better.

As for the AHL, it’s all anecdotal evidence. There is no real way of knowing why someone gets better over time. Maybe they were that hood all along and just needed a chance. Maybe they just matured. Maybe there were reasons that Girgerenko cane with all those red flags and he was destined for failure no matter how he was handled.

finally, I believe history will look back on GMTM much better.

 

 

 

[GASabresIUFAN]

11 hours ago, tom webster said:

A) wow, Housley got mentioned in an article in Florida. Find me one mention of him getting another interview or an explanation as to how JBOT waited and still got him from all the teams that wanted him. On top of that, the writer was so in tune with the organization, he didn’t mention the guy who got the job, hired while Housley was still available I might add.

B) it’s essentially ROR and Guhle for Montador and Thompson. Only reason there is any benefit in cap space is because he lucked out with Berglund leaving.

C) you know what else happens to players like Campbell , Roy and others? They got older. And you have no idea if Vic and Alex are any better for being down there. Old school guys would like you to believe that. They’d also like you to believe that fighting and plus/minus are important.

D) So far JBOT hasn’t improved the team at all other then tanking and allowing them to get Dahlin which may go down as his greatest achievement. I believe we are in the playoffs if GMTM is still here but probably no Dahlin do maybe it’s all worth it

Tom, I appreciate the humor.  This is one of the best posts this year.  Seriously, they are older therefore they are better. I guess we should build a team around 52 year old players.