Reinhart, The Force Awakens

[Doohickie]

9 hours ago, jame said:

There was nothing structural different about what they were setting up last night. 

The setup was the same, yes, but it seemed like it wasn't as centered through Jack.  It was run from the top of the umbrella more than from the side wall.  I think the idea was to use both sides (a criticism of mine that I noticed they weren't doing enough), and attempt to use the right side more in order to set up Jack's one-timer.  Of course both PP goals came from the right flank.  That's actually excellent because if they don't depend on Jack too much, it will make him more lethal.

[nfreeman]

He's not what?

 

 

[Doohickie]

4 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

He's not what?

He's actually surprised me lately with his speed.  I attribute it to playing on the line with Jack:  There's actually a good reason to use that speed.  ERod is kind of speedy too so no reason to slow down on the third line (which is probably the reason for their success Tuesday night).

[jame]

The negativity surrounding Reinhart's speed should've ended after his sophmore year. He's not a burner, but his skating is good. It's not something that belongs in the "cons" column anymore. It's not a drawback or hinderance to his game and on ice performance. 

[nfreeman]

2 hours ago, jame said:

The negativity surrounding Reinhart's speed should've ended after his sophmore year. He's not a burner, but his skating is good. It's not something that belongs in the "cons" column anymore. It's not a drawback or hinderance to his game and on ice performance. 

Do you not think he would be a better and more effective player if he were a better skater?

 

[jame]

2 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Do you not think he would be a better and more effective player if he were a better skater?

 

I do not. I think his game is predicated on vision, IQ and the reads and anticipation those skills allow him to make. Reinhart slows the game down with his skating and vision. Look at the play he made at the blueline on last nights goal... less than 20 players in the NHL stay onsides on that play.

Edited February 7, 2019 by jame

[LGR4GM]

3 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

Do you not think he would be a better and more effective player if he were a better skater?

 

Do you think Zemgus would be a better player with better hands?

Do you think Okposo would be a better player if he were faster?

Everyone not named Eichel we could do this for. Reinhart's skating is fine. He isn't blazing fast but he is quick and agile. 

[jame]

22 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Do you think Zemgus would be a better player with better hands?

Do you think Okposo would be a better player if he were faster?

Everyone not named Eichel we could do this for. Reinhart's skating is fine. He isn't blazing fast but he is quick and agile. 

I do not think faster = better as a standard.

Yes, I think Zemgus would be better with better hands. No I do not think a faster Okposo would make up for his awful hands, puck skills, passing, etc.

[dudacek]

Reinhart is up to 90 games of near point-per-game production now. He's played about half those games with Jack.

He's outproduced Eichel over the past 2 months and Skinner over the past 3. The vast majority of his points this year are at even strength and his pointless streaks are the smallest on the team. He's not particularly fast and Conor Sheary is, so...?

I think the discussion of whether or not he is "good" is over.

Edited February 7, 2019 by dudacek

[Mustache of God]

59 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Do you think Zemgus would be a better player with better hands?

Do you think Okposo would be a better player if he were faster?

Everyone not named Eichel we could do this for. Reinhart's skating is fine. He isn't blazing fast but he is quick and agile. 

Eichel would be way better if he was faster and had better hands.

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

Do you think Zemgus would be a better player with better hands?

Do you think Okposo would be a better player if he were faster?

Everyone not named Eichel we could do this for. Reinhart's skating is fine. He isn't blazing fast but he is quick and agile. 

 

7 minutes ago, Mustache of God said:

Eichel would be way better if he was faster and had better hands.

Actually , I think Eichel is too fast and he over-thinks the game due to hockey IQ,  I think he'd be better on a line with Elie and KO.

[nfreeman]

3 hours ago, jame said:

I do not. I think his game is predicated on vision, IQ and the reads and anticipation those skills allow him to make. Reinhart slows the game down with his skating and vision. Look at the play he made at the blueline on last nights goal... less than 20 players in the NHL stay onsides on that play.

I don't see how he slows the game down with his skating.  His vision, yes, but not his skating.

I think his skating is a hindrance in his game, which his vision (which I agree is excellent) enables him to overcome.

 

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Do you think Zemgus would be a better player with better hands?

Do you think Okposo would be a better player if he were faster?

Everyone not named Eichel we could do this for. Reinhart's skating is fine. He isn't blazing fast but he is quick and agile. 

He is not the least bit quick.  He is slow in both open ice and small spaces, and he is slow to get moving from a stationary position.

As for the rest of your post -- yes, we could do this for everyone.  If you had read the post I was responding to, which was quoted in my post, you might have noticed that I was responding to this:

Quote

  [Reino's glacial skating ability is] not a drawback or hinderance to his game and on ice performance. 

 

 

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

Reinhart is up to 90 games of near point-per-game production now. He's played about half those games with Jack.

He's outproduced Eichel over the past 2 months and Skinner over the past 3. The vast majority of his points this year are at even strength and his pointless streaks are the smallest on the team. He's not particularly fast and Conor Sheary is, so...?

I think the discussion of whether or not he is "good" is over.

As do I, but the question is how good.

And while having only small pointless streaks is good, lengthy goal-less streaks, which Reino still delivers, are bad and something for which it's fair IMHO to hold him accountable.

[Doohickie]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

He's not particularly fast and Conor Sheary is, so...

Sheary skates faster than his game can bear.  He gets ahead of himself and can't execute his stick handling and passing quickly enough to keep up with his speed.  Except for on the rush especially on an odd-man break, he's more effective when he's *not* skating at full speed, imo.

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

I think the discussion of whether or not he is "good" is over.

[jame]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

I don't see how he slows the game down with his skating.  His vision, yes, but not his skating.

I think his skating is a hindrance in his game, which his vision (which I agree is excellent) enables him to overcome.

 

He is not the least bit quick.  He is slow in both open ice and small spaces, and he is slow to get moving from a stationary position.

 

 

 

 

You need to think of skating beyond speed. Reinhart is a very good skater because of the decisions he makes, the skating lines he takes, and space he creates and takes away with both. The value of skating as a skill is in the opportunities it creates/prevents. Reinhart uses his skating to do exactly that... it's just not as flashy.

He is by no means slows in small spaces or slow to get moving. The primary drawback on Reinhart's skating is that he doesn't have a 5th gear. The gear that maybe 15% of the highly skilled players in the league have.

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by jame

[jame]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

 

And while having only small pointless streaks is good, lengthy goal-less streaks, which Reino still delivers, are bad and something for which it's fair IMHO to hold him accountable.

That's not how you hold playmakers accountable...

[nfreeman]

25 minutes ago, jame said:

You need to think of skating beyond speed. Reinhart is a very good skater because of the decisions he makes, the skating lines he takes, and space he creates and takes away with both. The value of skating as a skill is in the opportunities it creates/prevents. Reinhart uses his skating to do exactly that... it's just not as flashy.

He is by no means slows in small spaces or slow to get moving. The primary drawback on Reinhart's skating is that he doesn't have a 5th gear. The gear that maybe 15% of the highly skilled players in the league have.

 

I don't "need" to do anything.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree about him being slow in small spaces or off the mark.  I'll ask you to watch what happens when he has to move quickly from, say, the slot to the corner to chase a loose puck -- he loses that contest most of the time.

I agree that he doesn't have a 5th gear (but I disagree that it's limited to 15% -- I think at this point, probably 80% of NHL top-9 forwards have a higher top speed than Reino does).

I agree that he is smart about the lines he takes and the decisions he makes -- but again I think these are necessary in order to overcome the handicap that his lack of speed and quickness creates.

Again -- I think he's a good player.  I just don't believe in pretending that his flaws don't exist.

 

21 minutes ago, jame said:

That's not how you hold playmakers accountable...

Not sure what this means, but when a guy starts the season with 1 goal in 16 games and later has another stretch of 15 games with 1 goal -- both of which streaks occur while his team, which he's supposed to be one of the cornerstones of, is sucking wind -- he's simply not as valuable as a guy who steps up and lights the lamp when his team needs it.

[jame]

10 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I don't "need" to do anything.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree about him being slow in small spaces or off the mark.  I'll ask you to watch what happens when he has to move quickly from, say, the slot to the corner to chase a loose puck -- he loses that contest most of the time.

I agree that he doesn't have a 5th gear (but I disagree that it's limited to 15% -- I think at this point, probably 80% of NHL top-9 forwards have a higher top speed than Reino does).

I agree that he is smart about the lines he takes and the decisions he makes -- but again I think these are necessary in order to overcome the handicap that his lack of speed and quickness creates.

Again -- I think he's a good player.  I just don't believe in pretending that his flaws don't exist.

 

Not sure what this means, but when a guy starts the season with 1 goal in 16 games and later has another stretch of 15 games with 1 goal -- both of which streaks occur while his team, which he's supposed to be one of the cornerstones of, is sucking wind -- he's simply not as valuable as a guy who steps up and lights the lamp when his team needs it.

The first bolded.... I'll take that bet. He's actually exceptionally good at exactly that. His cycle work is as good or better than anyone on the team.

The second bolded is...a bold statement. Just to get my bearings (because I obviously believe this statement is wayyyyy off), who do you think is a better skater: Logan Couture or Sam Reinhart?

Which of these 6 Bruins top 9 forwards do you think has a 5th gear?  Debrusk/Heinen/Krejci/Nordstrom/Frederic/Cehlarik. 

Third bolded.... I'll leave it up to others to decide.

 

Note: Kuznetsov 11/5-12/21 : 16 games 1 goal....... 12/22 - 1/20 : 14 games / 1 goal

I guess Kuznetsov is simply not as valuable as we thought

 

 

[dudacek]

27 minutes ago, jame said:

The first bolded.... I'll take that bet. He's actually exceptionally good at exactly that. His cycle work is as good or better than anyone on the team.

The second bolded is...a bold statement. Just to get my bearings (because I obviously believe this statement is wayyyyy off), who do you think is a better skater: Logan Couture or Sam Reinhart?

Which of these 6 Bruins top 9 forwards do you think has a 5th gear?  Debrusk/Heinen/Krejci/Nordstrom/Frederic/Cehlarik. 

Third bolded.... I'll leave it up to others to decide.

 

Note: Kuznetsov 11/5-12/21 : 16 games 1 goal....... 12/22 - 1/20 : 14 games / 1 goal

I guess Kuznetsov is simply not as valuable as we thought

 

 

dammit @nfreeman i guess I'm just not needed around here any more. ?

 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, jame said:

You need to think of skating beyond speed. Reinhart is a very good skater because of the decisions he makes, the skating lines he takes, and space he creates and takes away with both. The value of skating as a skill is in the opportunities it creates/prevents. Reinhart uses his skating to do exactly that... it's just not as flashy.

He is by no means slows in small spaces or slow to get moving. The primary drawback on Reinhart's skating is that he doesn't have a 5th gear. The gear that maybe 15% of the highly skilled players in the league have.

 

Myself, I just want to see him use his 4th gear more often. To me, he's always had the hockey smarts and he knows what to do, but sometimes he doesn't give it. He will get in front of the net but other times he will throw a puck away to avoid pending contact. He lets Eichel do the heavy lifting too often and just waits. if he showed more desire and drove through players more often like Skinner tries to do we wouldn't have conversations about him, he'd be genuine elite.

[dudacek]

Reinhart is a better hockey player than Skinner. Fight me ?

[jame]

38 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Myself, I just want to see him use his 4th gear more often. To me, he's always had the hockey smarts and he knows what to do, but sometimes he doesn't give it. He will get in front of the net but other times he will throw a puck away to avoid pending contact. He lets Eichel do the heavy lifting too often and just waits. if he showed more desire and drove through players more often like Skinner tries to do we wouldn't have conversations about him, he'd be genuine elite.

I don't really see any of this. Reinhart is far more engaged physically than Skinner. That's not to say Skinner doesn't go to the net... he sure does. And it's not to say Eichel isn't the one lugging the puck most of the time. But it's Reinhart who does the dirty work down low, extending possessions with his uniquely elite forechecking skill (Seriously, his stick work, positioning, and leverage down low is the type of tape that will be used to teach).

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Reinhart is a better hockey player than Skinner. Fight me ?

Correct. Reinhart is a better hockey player. Skinner is a better goal scorer.

[Thorny]

7 hours ago, dudacek said:

Reinhart is up to 90 games of near point-per-game production now. He's played about half those games with Jack.

He's outproduced Eichel over the past 2 months and Skinner over the past 3. The vast majority of his points this year are at even strength and his pointless streaks are the smallest on the team. He's not particularly fast and Conor Sheary is, so...?

I think the discussion of whether or not he is "good" is over.

The Kane/Toews comparisons kind of stopped there for a bit but it's probably worth mentioning again. We know Jack has it in him to produce like Kane, Reinhart fitting into the Toews mold from yesteryear is definitely on the table. 

[dudacek]

It will be forgotten in the pain of the OT loss, like his excellence gets missed on a mediocre team.

But down by 2 with 10 minutes left, who made both plays — elite passes — that sent the Sabres to OT?

 

[Thorny]

Reinhart has been our leading scorer since November 4th. 

[nfreeman]

5 hours ago, jame said:

The first bolded.... I'll take that bet. He's actually exceptionally good at exactly that. His cycle work is as good or better than anyone on the team.

The second bolded is...a bold statement. Just to get my bearings (because I obviously believe this statement is wayyyyy off), who do you think is a better skater: Logan Couture or Sam Reinhart?

Which of these 6 Bruins top 9 forwards do you think has a 5th gear?  Debrusk/Heinen/Krejci/Nordstrom/Frederic/Cehlarik. 

Third bolded.... I'll leave it up to others to decide.

 

Note: Kuznetsov 11/5-12/21 : 16 games 1 goal....... 12/22 - 1/20 : 14 games / 1 goal

I guess Kuznetsov is simply not as valuable as we thought

 

 

As to the first bolded:  we can insist that black is white, night is day, etc -- or we can watch, say, Reino's shift in OT tonight, in which he lost 3 races for loose pucks in the D zone (not to mention getting caught on a potential breakaway in the O zone and turning it into a turnover -- but he gets a pass on that since he was at the end of his shift). 

As to the 2nd -- I'd say Reino is about the same as Couture and clearly slower than Debrusk, Kreijci and Nordstrom (not to mention Pasta, Marchand, JFK, etc.).  Cehlarik has only played 8 games this year.

And of course Kuzy is valuable.  He's just not as valuable as Ovechkin.

 

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

The Kane/Toews comparisons kind of stopped there for a bit but it's probably worth mentioning again. We know Jack has it in him to produce like Kane, Reinhart fitting into the Toews mold from yesteryear is definitely on the table. 

Which table?  The table that doesn't include a place setting for leadership and guts?

 

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

Reinhart is a better hockey player than Skinner. Fight me ?

 

3 hours ago, jame said:

Correct. Reinhart is a better hockey player. Skinner is a better goal scorer.

 

36 minutes ago, dudacek said:

It will be forgotten in the pain of the OT loss, like his excellence gets missed on a mediocre team.

But down by 2 with 10 minutes left, who made both plays — elite passes — that sent the Sabres to OT?

Both of those were great passes.

But Skinner's 2 goals in the 3rd were better plays, and more valuable.  (Especially that 1st one on the breakaway -- holy mackerel.)