Housley Should Have Until End of December

[Thorny]

26 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Straw man. Nobody said this.

It's only a straw man if you think the only reason for quoting someone or posting something is to argue.

I was making a statement outright.

Keep your straw men. 

And I stand by my original point: If losing Berglund is as big a factor as you make it out to be, Botterill should feel obligated to replace him.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Thorny

[Hoss]

34 minutes ago, Thorny said:

It's only a straw man if you think the only reason for quoting someone or posting something is to argue.

I was making a statement outright.

Keep your straw men. 

And I stand by my original point: If losing Berglund is as big a factor as you make it out to be, Botterill should feel obligated to replace him.

I didn’t really make it out to be anything. I said it’s bigger than people think but that’s not a defined judgement.

[JJFIVEOH]

After getting completely hosed this game by the officials, Housley just sat back and took it. 

At some point a coach needs to stop being a ***** and stand up for his team. 

I'm losing my patience with him. 

[Eleven]

23 hours ago, Hoss said:

Also, I think Patrik Berglund was a bigger factor than people want to let on. He played in 23 of 30 games prior to his disappearance. I’ve seen a few posters saying he was scratched multiple times but just to clarify: he wasn’t. He was a healthy scratch a total of one time prior to his disappearance. He was on IR for five games and had a minor injury for the other.

Prior to Berglund’s departure the team consistently had two bookend lines. A top line that could score like any other top line and a shutdown line. It still has the top line but you can flip around other players as many times as you want. The fact is there just isn’t enough developed talent to get you the lines you want right now.

This point should not be overlooked.  That shutdown line was something else.

As far as firing Housley goes:  Be careful.  He's got a good system and doesn't have the players for it yet.  The last time the Sabres were in this situation and fired a coach to try to get a quick fix was four coaches ago--it led to a revolving door, and that never is good.  It's the roster that needs adjustment (or development) right now, not the coach.  

[Hoss]

4 minutes ago, Eleven said:

This point should not be overlooked.  That shutdown line was something else.

As far as firing Housley goes:  Be careful.  He's got a good system and doesn't have the players for it yet.  The last time the Sabres were in this situation and fired a coach to try to get a quick fix was four coaches ago--it led to a revolving door, and that never is good.  It's the roster that needs adjustment (or development) right now, not the coach.  

This absolutely. I want to give GMJB one more offseason to load up a few extra players and for some of the younger guys to get some experience and another offseason of work. This season is still very much alive but if they falter and end up around .500 then start next season on a similar .500 pace you can talk about soneone’s job security.

[Carmel Corn]

2 hours ago, Eleven said:

This point should not be overlooked.  That shutdown line was something else.

As far as firing Housley goes:  Be careful.  He's got a good system and doesn't have the players for it yet.  The last time the Sabres were in this situation and fired a coach to try to get a quick fix was four coaches ago--it led to a revolving door, and that never is good.  It's the roster that needs adjustment (or development) right now, not the coach.  

Agree that the roster is not a perfect match for the system and it will take more work for JB to fill the gaps.  I also don't believe you make a HC change just for the sake of change and unless you have a strong sense that you have a better coach lined up, you proceed with caution (ex. Coach Q is not a given). 

That being said, I believe it is fair to judge Housley on the PP effectiveness.  It has struggled in the bottom half or third of the league since he took over from his predecessor.   An "offensive" minded coach should be accountable for at least showing improvement in the PP, but I feel in our case coach Phil has failed.  He has the tools to work with here and it is fair game to be critical of the team's performance here.

[erickompositör72]

Echoing some sentiments:

Replacing Housley at this point would only make sense if the plan was ultimately to get lesser talent to perform over their heads (90s Nolan, for example).

That doesn't seem to be JBott's plan. As people have pointed out, there is evidence that Housley's system could be dynamite if we aquire/develop the right players.

Our GM may be placing his bet on Phil delivering after he gets all the pieces in place.

[Brawndo]

3 hours ago, Eleven said:

This point should not be overlooked.  That shutdown line was something else.

As far as firing Housley goes:  Be careful.  He's got a good system and doesn't have the players for it yet.  The last time the Sabres were in this situation and fired a coach to try to get a quick fix was four coaches ago--it led to a revolving door, and that never is good.  It's the roster that needs adjustment (or development) right now, not the coach.  

The shutdown line was something else, however Zemgus and Larsson still continued to dominate as a shutdown pair until Z went out with his injury. They have not been paired together since his return. 

As Carmel mentioned, Botterill is not going to fire Housley just to fire him. He does need to look at whether not Housley and his system are good enough. Right now the talent gap between the Sabres and the Top Teams is quite significant and closing that gap is his number one priority between now and the season. He does also need to look at and determine if there is a coaching gap as well.  Can Housley match Cooper, Babcock or even Julien in a seven game series? If there is any doubt and Quenneville shows serious interest the move has to be seriously considered. 

Last Summer Bovada, the internet betting site, posted odds on where Barry Trotz would end up this season. The Sabres were listed fourth.  Sportsnet also mentioned him being a possibility for the Sabres Now is that speculation because the Sabres finished 31st or was there some genuine interest from the Sabres?  

If it’s the latter that would mean Botterill has doubts about Housley as well. 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Was not Housley JBOT's first big hire?  

Housley is not going anywhere until JBOT has the roster exactly where he wants it, which probably won't be next season, but probably the one after that.

[Eleven]

35 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

The shutdown line was something else, however Zemgus and Larsson still continued to dominate as a shutdown pair until Z went out with his injury. They have not been paired together since his return. 

As Carmel mentioned, Botterill is not going to fire Housley just to fire him. He does need to look at whether not Housley and his system are good enough. Right now the talent gap between the Sabres and the Top Teams is quite significant and closing that gap is his number one priority between now and the season. He does also need to look at and determine if there is a coaching gap as well.  Can Housley match Cooper, Babcock or even Julien in a seven game series? If there is any doubt and Quenneville shows serious interest the move has to be seriously considered. 

Last Summer Bovada, the internet betting site, posted odds on where Barry Trotz would end up this season. The Sabres were listed fourth.  Sportsnet also mentioned him being a possibility for the Sabres Now is that speculation because the Sabres finished 31st or was there some genuine interest from the Sabres?  

If it’s the latter that would mean Botterill has doubts about Housley as well. 

What do you think Quenneville could do with this roster that he couldn't do with his rosters in Saint Louis and Colorado?  He's not a genius coach; he was in the right place at the right time.  To me, he's just another Bylsma.

Can Housley match Cooper or Babcock  once he has similar rosters?  Don't know.  Right now, he can't, but that's not on him.

He should be able to match Julien.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Eleven

[Taro T]

35 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

The shutdown line was something else, however Zemgus and Larsson still continued to dominate as a shutdown pair until Z went out with his injury. They have not been paired together since his return. 

As Carmel mentioned, Botterill is not going to fire Housley just to fire him. He does need to look at whether not Housley and his system are good enough. Right now the talent gap between the Sabres and the Top Teams is quite significant and closing that gap is his number one priority between now and the season. He does also need to look at and determine if there is a coaching gap as well.  Can Housley match Cooper, Babcock or even Julien in a seven game series? If there is any doubt and Quenneville shows serious interest the move has to be seriously considered. 

Last Summer Bovada, the internet betting site, posted odds on where Barry Trotz would end up this season. The Sabres were listed fourth.  Sportsnet also mentioned him being a possibility for the Sabres Now is that speculation because the Sabres finished 31st or was there some genuine interest from the Sabres?  

If it’s the latter that would mean Botterill has doubts about Housley as well. 

Good post.

Minor quibble: Girgensons was back with Larsson last night.  Okposo was the 3rd member of that line & they were primarily used against the Kucherov line.

[Brawndo]

2 hours ago, Eleven said:

What do you think Quenneville could do with this roster that he couldn't do with his rosters in Saint Louis and Colorado?  He's not a genius coach; he was in the right place at the right time.  To me, he's just another Bylsma.

Can Housley match Cooper or Babcock  once he has similar rosters?  Don't know.  Right now, he can't, but that's not on him.

He should be able to match Julien.

This roster has more top end talent than those two other teams did, and it’s not just about this year but about the next 3-5 years. I know that Q utilizes analytics to make lineup decisions and to make in game changes. Does this make him a genius? No, but he did win three Stanley Cups while Bylsma with a more talented roster in Pittsburgh only was successful once. Quenneville maybe was in the right place at the right time, but he also maximized the opportunity.  Also in terms of top end talent, Buffalo’s Roster is closer to Chicago then Pittsburgh’s. 

Ryan Stimson(the Athletic) and Sean Tierney( Charting Hockey/and a consultant for an unnamed NHL Team) where on a podcast where they discussed that Housley has not maximized the talent he does have on the roster. Two examples would be despite having the last change against Boston in the Home Opener he insisted on putting Eichel’s Line out for starts against Bergerons Line. Also scratching Pilut in favor of Beaulieu at times. And yes Pilut and Bogo had a rough game yesterday so he probably sits versus Edmonton tomorrow. 

Housley was my favorite player when I was a kid. I was ecstatic when they hired him as a coach. However there are concerns which the PP and player usage which does make me question the long term future of his coaching tenure. 

2 hours ago, Taro T said:

Good post.

Minor quibble: Girgensons was back with Larsson last night.  Okposo was the 3rd member of that line & they were primarily used against the Kucherov line.

Good catch, in my defense my wife and I had our first night sans kids in about a year last night. We had tickets for the game, stayed at the Marriott HarborCenter and decided to pregame at the Draft House. Since neither of us had to drive we decided to enjoy ourselves with a few beers, ABV be damned. Needless to say most of the game was a blur. 

Also per Hockey Vis and Natural Stat Trick The Sobotka Line was the most matched up with the Kucherov Line, I could have misread that though. 

[Taro T]

20 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

This roster has more top end talent than those two other teams did, and it’s not just about this year but about the next 3-5 years. I know that Q utilizes analytics to make lineup decisions and to make in game changes. Does this make him a genius? No, but he did win three Stanley Cups while Bylsma with a more talented roster in Pittsburgh only was successful once. Quenneville maybe was in the right place at the right time, but he also maximized the opportunity.  Also in terms of top end talent, Buffalo’s Roster is closer to Chicago then Pittsburgh’s. 

Ryan Stimson(the Athletic) and Sean Tierney( Charting Hockey/and a consultant for an unnamed NHL Team) where on a podcast where they discussed that Housley has not maximized the talent he does have on the roster. Two examples would be despite having the last change against Boston in the Home Opener he insisted on putting Eichel’s Line out for starts against Bergerons Line. Also scratching Pilut in favor of Beaulieu at times. And yes Pilut and Bogo had a rough game yesterday so he probably sits versus Edmonton tomorrow. 

Housley was my favorite player when I was a kid. I was ecstatic when they hired him as a coach. However there are concerns which the PP and player usage which does make me question the long term future of his coaching tenure. 

Good catch, in my defense my wife and I had our first night sans kids in about a year last night. We had tickets for the game, stayed at the Marriott HarborCenter and decided to pregame at the Draft House. Since neither of us had to drive we decided to enjoy ourselves with a few beers, ABV be damned. Needless to say most of the game was a blur. 

Also per Hockey Vis and Natural Stat Trick The Sobotka Line was the most matched up with the Kucherov Line, I could have misread that though. 

LOL.

We pregamed longer than usual and the I did the old beer/period that hasn't happened since the last meetup.  Know Larsson's line was out against Kucherov early.  That matchup might have changed as the game went on.  ;)

[Eleven]

3 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Buffalo’s Roster is closer to Chicago then Pittsburgh’s. 

Buffalo's roster is closer to Quenneville's rosters in Saint Louis (and it isn't even there yet) and Colorado (maybe getting there) than it ever will be to his roster in Chicago and Bylsma's in Pittsburgh.  That's my point.  Quenneville isn't a great coach, he's a guy who rode his rosters.  You want a guy who can make lemonade out of lemons?  He's an assistant a couple of levels above Penn Station right now.  Or he might be the guy who's in charge of the Sabs right now.  

But Quennevile is Alain Vignault with better rosters.  Remember Mike Keenan?  Such a great coach?  Uh huh.  Took a freaking all-star team with no salary restrictions to two seven-game series, to win it, and never did anything else.

[Thorny]

12 hours ago, Eleven said:

This point should not be overlooked.  That shutdown line was something else.

As far as firing Housley goes:  Be careful.  He's got a good system and doesn't have the players for it yet.  The last time the Sabres were in this situation and fired a coach to try to get a quick fix was four coaches ago--it led to a revolving door, and that never is good.  It's the roster that needs adjustment (or development) right now, not the coach.  

THEN REPLACE HIM. 

Edited January 14, 2019 by Thorny
Botterill/Berglund

[Eleven]

25 minutes ago, Thorny said:

THEN REPLACE HIM. 

But with whom shall we replace him, dear Liza, dear Liza?  With whom shall we replace him, replace him with whom?

[Thorny]

13 minutes ago, Eleven said:

But with whom shall we replace him, dear Liza, dear Liza?  With whom shall we replace him, replace him with whom?

That's a job for the GM. I'll do it for him if he wants to pay me what he makes.

Can't be too hard to find an overpaid, 4 point, minus player that was viewed as a Cap Dump. 

---

To your reference, a riddle: What is weightless, can be seen by the naked eye, and if you put it in a bucket, it makes the bucket lighter?

Edited January 14, 2019 by Thorny

[Eleven]

36 minutes ago, Thorny said:

That's a job for the GM. I'll do it for him if he wants to pay me what he makes.

Can't be too hard to find an overpaid, 4 point, minus player that was viewed as a Cap Dump. 

---

To your reference, a riddle: What is weightless, can be seen by the naked eye, and if you put it in a bucket, it makes the bucket lighter?

Is that the *whole* riddle?

[Brawndo]

19 hours ago, Eleven said:

Buffalo's roster is closer to Quenneville's rosters in Saint Louis (and it isn't even there yet) and Colorado (maybe getting there) than it ever will be to his roster in Chicago and Bylsma's in Pittsburgh.  That's my point.  Quenneville isn't a great coach, he's a guy who rode his rosters.  You want a guy who can make lemonade out of lemons?  He's an assistant a couple of levels above Penn Station right now.  Or he might be the guy who's in charge of the Sabs right now.  

But Quennevile is Alain Vignault with better rosters.  Remember Mike Keenan?  Such a great coach?  Uh huh.  Took a freaking all-star team with no salary restrictions to two seven-game series, to win it, and never did anything else.

My comment was better top end talent. In St Louis Q had Pronger, Turgeon and Demitra. Will Eichel and Dahlin prove to be better when their careers are over I believe so.  In Colorado he had an aging Sakic, who in his prime looks better than Jack as of now, but they did not have a D Man of Dahlin’s Caliber.

I never used the term great or genius to describe Quenneville, my question is does Botterill feel that he is an improvement over Housley? Phil has a top heavy roster with a lot of holes for the GM to fill, but his deployment and usage of lines can be called into question. For example the Sobotka was getting crushed by the the Kucherov Line, while Larrson’s Line was dominating the Tampa 4th Line.  Why not switch Larsson’s Line back to face Kucherov and see what happens. Then he put Risto and Scandella back together, who are not a good combination to begin with and played them against Kucherov Line as well with disastrous results. 

This is the main reason I question whether Housley is the right person for HC, he makes opposing coaches jobs much easier 

In the end I believe Quenneville ends up in St Louis or Philadelphia this summer.

Housley stays but Davis Payne and Chris Hajt do not.  However if the Sabres are not in a playoff spot come mid November, he will be fired. 

 

 

By the way, do you want an example of a coach who was average at best but is in the Hall Of Fame because he rode his rosters? 

Marv Levy

[PASabreFan]

If two more trainwrecks this week, do Jason and Terry have a little chat during the break?

[Andrew Amerk]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

If two more trainwrecks this week, do Jason and Terry have a little chat during the break?

They need to, but I doubt it happens. 

Who hired HCPH anyways? Was that Jason? Terry? Someone else?

[...]

[Kruppstahl]

1 hour ago, PASabreFan said:

If two more trainwrecks this week, do Jason and Terry have a little chat during the break?

About what?  The future of Botterill's job?  Phil's job?  A trade discussion?

What are you thinking?

 

 

[PASabreFan]

6 hours ago, Kruppstahl said:

About what?  The future of Botterill's job?  Phil's job?  A trade discussion?

What are you thinking?

Phil. Thought that would be obvious. But in the light of day (almost) I'm of a mind that a GM gets one coaching hire. So maybe if Terry's mad about Phil, the discussion is about Jason too. (I have no idea if Terry is mad; I kind of doubt it. He's had plenty of Kool Aid along with the rest of the fan bois, I'm sure.)

[PASabreFan]

7 hours ago, ... said:

That's kind of what fans do when the coach is this bad. And if we're good at anything, it's identifying bad coaches. Do you honestly think Phil turns out to be a good NHL head coach? If he were a player, what would you say about him? Wow, this kid's gonna be good?