Gramps Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Same way you do for Gretzky and Ruth, relative comparisons to their peers Bullcarp ... Football's the same, a yard is a yard, Kelly & Flacco play or played primarily outdoors and so on, 16-game schedule. There were 28 teams in 1990, 32 today. Possibly better athletes today which would work against Flacco on defense. Concussion protocol now which would work against Flacco now should he be removed from a game. I would agree you can't compare Gretzky to today's players mainly due to the size of goalie equipment. Same with Ruth - relief pitchers as we know them did not exist in the 1920s. Stating pitchers stayed in the game until the end in most cases and Ruth hit most of his home runs in the live ball era. But comparing Kelly who finished in 1996 to Flacco who started in 2008 is definitely doable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Go watch a highlight reel of gretzky. The difference today isn't goalie equipment. It's every defender can skate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gramps Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) Go watch a highlight reel of gretzky. The difference today isn't goalie equipment. It's every defender can skate. I watched Gretzky in person a few times ... goalie equipment and the stand up style definitely played a part in Gretzky' success. As did a great cast of teammates. If you don't think defenders could skate back then, you're nuts. In 1982, there were 21 teams and today there are 31. If anything, defense talent is spread out more. Edited February 16, 2018 by Gramps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Bullcarp ... Football's the same, a yard is a yard, Kelly & Flacco play or played primarily outdoors and so on, 16-game schedule. There were 28 teams in 1990, 32 today. Possibly better athletes today which would work against Flacco on defense. Concussion protocol now which would work against Flacco now should he be removed from a game. I would agree you can't compare Gretzky to today's players mainly due to the size of goalie equipment. Same with Ruth - relief pitchers as we know them did not exist in the 1920s. Stating pitchers stayed in the game until the end in most cases and Ruth hit most of his home runs in the live ball era. But comparing Kelly who finished in 1996 to Flacco who started in 2008 is definitely doable. You're really giving meaning to your name with this debate. The way the game is played is radically different than it was in the 80s and 90s, and it shows in the results: across the league yards, attempts, completions, and touchdowns are up, while interceptions are down. https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/era-adjusted-passing-leaders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Go watch a highlight reel of gretzky. The difference today isn't goalie equipment. It's every defender can skate. The lack of defencemen who could skate backwards 40 years ago was appalling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted February 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 I watched Gretzky in person a few times ... goalie equipment and the stand up style definitely played a part in Gretzky' success. As did a great cast of teammates. If you don't think defenders could skate back then, you're nuts. In 1982, there were 21 teams and today there are 31. If anything, defense talent is spread out more. Less teams does not equal better talent. I'd bet AHL teams could give 80s NHL teams a run for their money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gramps Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 You're really giving meaning to your name with this debate. The way the game is played is radically different than it was in the 80s and 90s, and it shows in the results: across the league yards, attempts, completions, and touchdowns are up, while interceptions are down. https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/era-adjusted-passing-leaders This is not a debate and what difference does the number of teams make from 28 in 1990 to 32 ? Each QB is only playing 16 others. If anything, Flacco's numbers should be lower considering he's playing against better athletes and more "sophisticated" defenses. And the game is "radically different" ? Please ... Less teams does not equal better talent. I'd bet AHL teams could give 80s NHL teams a run for their money Sure it does ... condense the NHL to about 12 teams and tell me who got cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 This is not a debate and what difference does the number of teams make from 28 in 1990 to 32 ? Each QB is only playing 16 others. If anything, Flacco's numbers should be lower considering he's playing against better athletes and more "sophisticated" defenses. And the game is "radically different" ? Please ... My had has officially exploded. Have a good night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 My had has officially exploded. Have a good night. I just wish offenses had evolved at all or QB's and WR's had become better athletes over the years. Supposedly, 8.5% of Lamar Jackson's passes were dropped last year. I have no idea how that compares to other QB's in this class. Just heard it in a podcast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 I watched Gretzky in person a few times ... goalie equipment and the stand up style definitely played a part in Gretzky' success. As did a great cast of teammates. If you don't think defenders could skate back then, you're nuts. In 1982, there were 21 teams and today there are 31. If anything, defense talent is spread out more. As did I. And I could not disagree more: The extent to which d-men have become more fluid, mobile, and agile is a huge factor in making it harder to score. This is not a debate It's a message board. That's generally all we do. Possibly better athletes today I think pro athletes -- as a group -- are getting better. There's myriad reasons for that. Fascinating TED talk on the subject: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted February 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 This is not a debate and what difference does the number of teams make from 28 in 1990 to 32 ? Each QB is only playing 16 others. If anything, Flacco's numbers should be lower considering he's playing against better athletes and more "sophisticated" defenses. And the game is "radically different" ? Please ... Sure it does ... condense the NHL to about 12 teams and tell me who got cut. This entire discussion is about context and relativity. In the context of what we were discussing, just because there were less teams in the NHL in the 80s does not mean there was more talent on them than teams today; i.e. 99% of defensemen today are better than those in the 80s It's a message board. That's generally all we do I mean it's not a debate. He's wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Around the 7:20 mark, there's a fascinating discussion of how specialized body types have become far more prevalent in pro sports in recent times. Especially in the NBA. I mean it's not a debate. He's wrong Enough of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted February 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Around the 7:20 mark, there's a fascinating discussion of how specialized body types have become far more prevalent in pro sports in recent times. Especially in the NBA. Enough of that. Oh come on. I can't even say someone is wrong on here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gramps Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 This entire discussion is about context and relativity. In the context of what we were discussing, just because there were less teams in the NHL in the 80s does not mean there was more talent on them than teams today; i.e. 99% of defensemen today are better than those in the 80s I mean it's not a debate. He's wrong My last post on this ... Strictly your opinion. I have mine - you have yours. Just like all of the opinions about who the Bills should draft. None of us really knows who will make it. And the link provided for the "era" comparison is laughable at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Around the 7:20 mark, there's a fascinating discussion of how specialized body types have become far more prevalent in pro sports in recent times. Especially in the NBA. Enough of that. While I have been frustrated by Gramps at times and I do believe he is wrong, you are right. We shouldn't just go after him saying "your wrong". It has been a frustrating week and I think it is easy to dehuman people on the other side of a screen sometimes as opposed to explaining your viewpoints and not getting frustrated. My last post on this ... Strictly your opinion. I have mine - you have yours. Just like all of the opinions about who the Bills should draft. None of us really knows who will make it. And the link provided for the "era" comparison is laughable at best. Curious, which QB's do you like? Would you be willing to rank them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gramps Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) While I have been frustrated by Gramps at times and I do believe he is wrong, you are right. We shouldn't just go after him saying "your wrong". It has been a frustrating week and I think it is easy to dehuman people on the other side of a screen sometimes as opposed to explaining your viewpoints and not getting frustrated. Curious, which QB's do you like? Would you be willing to rank them? Funny ... I don't take offense as I have thick skin. When someone says that 99% of today's defensemen are better than those in the 80s, that's an opinion with no substantive data to back it up. Just like the poster who said that some NHL defensemen couldn't skate backwards. Sure, here's my ranking : Rosen Allen Mayfield Darnold Rudolph Jackson Falk When I said I wanted Foles and QB @ 21/22, that's my opinion. You don't have to agree with it and the Bills may not go in that direction. I'd rather have Foles and a chance to win next year than an unproven McCarron, an injury-prone Bradford or Bridgewater, or some other UFA except Cousins who the Bills most likely can't afford. Edited February 16, 2018 by Gramps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted February 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Funny ... I don't take offense as I have thick skin. When someone says that 99% of today's defensemen are better than those in the 80s, that's an opinion with no substantive data to back it up. Just like the poster who said that some NHL defensemen couldn't skate backwards. Sure, here's my ranking : Rosen Allen Mayfield Darnold Rudolph Jackson Falk At least someone does I don't know how you would even prove my claim. It's the same thing as saying pitching is better now than it was in the 1905s, it just is. NHL defensemen today are so much faster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gramps Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) At least someone does I don't know how you would even prove my claim. It's the same thing as saying pitching is better now than it was in the 1905s, it just is. NHL defensemen today are so much faster Then it remains a claim only ... I'd put Larry Robinson, Paul Coffey, Orr, Guy Lapointe, Serge Savard, Denis Potvin, Langway and others against anyone playing today. I'll even toss Housley in there. Edited February 16, 2018 by Gramps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Oh come on. I can't even say someone is wrong on here? My remark was pointed to your contention that there was no debate being had. NHL defensemen today are so much faster And this is just a fact. Gretzky was/is the greatest of all-time, but I take the view that part of what made him great was that his fellow professionals, as a cohort, were *so* far behind him. There's been a lot of catching up that's gone on in the meantime, which is partly what makes a guy like Crosby so amazing. I'd put Larry Robinson, Paul Coffey, Orr, Guy Lapointe, Serge Savard, Denis Potvin, Langway and others against anyone playing today. I'll even toss Housley in there. Those guys were all amazing. But they're also all HOFers, I'm guessing. When I watch highlights from the late 70s and throughout the 80s, I'm amazed at how poorly the average d-man moves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted February 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Then it remains a claim only ... I'd put Larry Robinson, Paul Coffey, Orr, Guy Lapointe, Serge Savard, Denis Potvin, Langway and others against anyone playing today. I'll even toss Housley in there. So Gretzky would be putting up 200 point seasons in today's NHL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gramps Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 My remark was pointed to your contention that there was no debate being had. And this is just a fact. Gretzky was/is the greatest of all-time, but I take the view that part of what made him great was that his fellow professionals, as a cohort, were *so* far behind him. There's been a lot of catching up that's gone on in the meantime, which is partly what makes a guy like Crosby so amazing. Those guys were all amazing. But they're also all HOFers, I'm guessing. When I watch highlights from the late 70s and throughout the 80s, I'm amazed at how poorly the average d-man moves. Watch some highlights from the modern era and you can find some poor movements as well. Not every defensemen today is fleet of foot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) Back to football. At the 22minute mark they start talking about Lamar Jackson and I found it interesting. Edited February 16, 2018 by SkuggaLiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gramps Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 So Gretzky would be putting up 200 point seasons in today's NHL Probably not and I think the main reason is the added size of goalie equipment and the fact most goalies these days use a more effective butterfly style. If Gretzky was playing today with the same cast of characters, he would still be putting up plenty of points. Hockey sense and puck awareness haven't changed much over time. Back to football. At the 22minute mark they start talking about Lamar Jackson and I found it interesting. I'd like to see posts from all of you guys ranking the QB draft and what you think the Bills should do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted February 16, 2018 Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 (edited) I posted mine. So my QB ranks are as followsRosenMayfieldDarnold JacksonAllenRudolph I will add that I think after the first 3 there is a considerable break for the next 3. Edited February 16, 2018 by SkuggaLiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted February 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2018 Probably not and I think the main reason is the added size of goalie equipment and the fact most goalies these days use a more effective butterfly style. If Gretzky was playing today with the same cast of characters, he would still be putting up plenty of points. Hockey sense and puck awareness haven't changed much over time. I'd like to see posts from all of you guys ranking the QB draft and what you think the Bills should do. Rosen Mayfield Jackson Darnold Rudolph Allen Trade anything to get Rosen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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