Jbot Do Something Already Part 2

[Thorny]

OEL is on the cusp of elite, innit? 20Gs from back there before too. 

 

We wouldn't have to include Risto because Risto isn't too good of a defenseman. 

We would have to use Eichel and have them add, or give them Casey, Alex Nylander, ROR, Reinhart, our unprotected first, pick some combo of 2-4 of those things depending on which ones you take.

 

Right. We aren't getting OEL unless we give them Eichel. And they'd have to be adding at that point, and we don't really want that trade.

[Randall Flagg]

Right. We aren't getting OEL unless we give them Eichel. And they'd have to be adding at that point, and we don't really want that trade.

Thought experiment - would you do Eichel for Keller, OEL, and Domi?

 

I'd honestly think for a long time. I don't think Zona would though. 

[Thorny]

Thought experiment - would you do Eichel for Keller, OEL, and Domi?

I'd honestly think for a long time. I don't think Zona would though.

 

I had to look up OEL's age. He's still only 26, eh? It gives me pause for consideration. If we somehow knew this was the real Keller going forward, long term, and that he'll project from this rookie season accordingly, we'd have to make the trade, no? He's been better than Eichel this year.

 

Ultimately right now I wouldn't make the trade, as I think Keller is going to slow down a bit. Hard to say what Arizona would do. Depending on their faith in Keller, they may see Eichel as that exceptionally marketable, franchise guy, which he is, and pull the trigger.

Edited November 11, 2017 by Thorny

[Randall Flagg]

How much have Eichel, Reinhart, Ristolainen, Girgensons, Larsson, McCabe improved since October of 2015? 

In any of those cases, can we honestly say that the amount is what we hoped for, expected, or even called worst-case scenario? 

Do we simply have six young players that all decided to stagnate for two years? The wrong players, all at once, all at the same time? 

Eichel scores a little more and sits further down in the zone defensively because he's told to, but raw development-wise, this is nothing like I expected. If it was one or two guys I'd just accept that this is who they are. But I feel like all of these guys are within 5% of their rookie selves 162 hockey games later. This isn't how young hockey players generally work and I don't have any explanation as to why it's happening, and I hope Botterill is addressing whatever is holding development back from this franchise as whole. 

The last player I remember developing as a Buffalo Sabre was Jason freaking Pominville.

 

It has now transcended coaches and even owners. What the gives?

Edited November 11, 2017 by Randall Flagg

[Weave]

My opinion.... we focused too much on youth and didn't give our young stars the veteran leadership they needed.

 

Crosby's rookie year the Pens had Mario Lemieux, Sergei Gonchar, John Leclair, Ryan Malone, Ziggy Palffy, Mark Recchi, and Rob Scuderi,  A lot of old winners in that group.  Guys that could teach the kids how to be a pro and what sort of effort was needed to be at the top of the league.

 

What has Buffalo had to teach the kids?  Gionta was run out by the the kids, Moulson has never won a thing.  Neither has ROR.  Or Legwand.  And Josh Gorges. 

The new core never had a chance.

[Randall Flagg]

My opinion.... we focused too much on youth and didn't give our young stars the veteran leadership they needed.

 

Crosby's rookie year the Pens had Mario Lemieux, Sergei Gonchar, John Leclair, Ryan Malone, Ziggy Palffy, Mark Recchi, and Rob Scuderi,  A lot of old winners in that group.  Guys that could teach the kids how to be a pro and what sort of effort was needed to be at the top of the league.

 

What has Buffalo had to teach the kids?  Gionta was run out by the the kids, Moulson has never won a thing.  Neither has ROR.  Or Legwand.  And Josh Gorges. 

The new core never had a chance.

So how on earth can we fix the mess?

[Jacque Richard]

Deals

[Weave]

So how on earth can we fix the mess?

 

I don't know, but forcing kids that aren't really going to amount to much (Bailey, Baptiste, Erod, etc) never was the answer.  But we've all clamored for it in the misguided thought that they'd magically become the winners we need.

[Randall Flagg]

I don't know, but forcing kids that aren't really going to amount to much (Bailey, Baptiste, Erod, etc) never was the answer.  But we've all clamored for it in the misguided thought that they'd magically become the winners we need.

Don't be too hard on yourself, man. :P 

 

One thing is for sure, the next time the firing carousel goes around I'm not going to have fear of the Dean Lombardis and the Darryl Sutters like I did last time. As if the fact that old school mentalities would somehow devastate the future potential of the team anymore than the young hip selections have us looking now (Not to pin the blame for this on Phil and Bott, but it really can't get much worse than right here right now)

 

Everyone laughed at the hirings of DeBoer and Rutherford and Shero and guys like that and their clubs have all won meaningful hockey games since my voice dropped. 

[Thorny]

How much have Eichel, Reinhart, Ristolainen, Girgensons, Larsson, McCabe improved since October of 2015? 

In any of those cases, can we honestly say that the amount is what we hoped for, expected, or even called worst-case scenario? 

Do we simply have six young players that all decided to stagnate for two years? The wrong players, all at once, all at the same time? 

Eichel scores a little more and sits further down in the zone defensively because he's told to, but raw development-wise, this is nothing like I expected. If it was one or two guys I'd just accept that this is who they are. But I feel like all of these guys are within 5% of their rookie selves 162 hockey games later. This isn't how young hockey players generally work and I don't have any explanation as to why it's happening, and I hope Botterill is addressing whatever is holding development back from this franchise as whole. 

The last player I remember developing as a Buffalo Sabre was Jason freaking Pominville.

 

It has now transcended coaches and even owners. What the ###### gives?

Good post, and not to nitpick, but I will once: I was more than happy with Jack's development last season. He went from a points pace in the 50s his rookie year, to one in the 70s in just his sophomore season, 11th in p/gp. That's a sizeable jump and he was right on track for where we wanted him to be. I expected a little more development this season, but it's still early.

 

The others.....your guess is as good as mine.

[Randall Flagg]

A sign of small optimism for me is this: 

Bylsma and Murray called last year's team a 95 point team and said they should make the playoffs. Lots of GMs and coaches will give similar lip service, but I'd bet anything they meant it. I believed it. Obviously injuries shredded us but we were bad all the time, healthy or not. Tim just had the wrong idea about the team he built. 

We were all slightly nervous about Botterill's comments about the team. He explicitly avoided talking about this team relative to the playoffs, it seemed like, was very cautious and talked about the building process needed. Called Risto a "good top 4 d-man" which is what we'd all agree with now, but probably not this summer and definitely not through the first two months of last season. 

 

At the very least, our GM now showed a much more realistic and correct view of how far away this team is. 

Edited November 11, 2017 by Randall Flagg

[Pokey Jones]

I don't think veteran leadership is the answer. I think you do go with all kids. Best way to build a new culture is not have guys who are stuck in an old one. The key to that however is having a coach that is respected and locked in place - Toronto.   When the players know the coach is there to stay then they know it's all on them and maybe then they do as they are told and learn to play together in that style. 

[TrueBlueGED]

A sign of small optimism for me is this:

 

Bylsma and Murray called last year's team a 95 point team and said they should make the playoffs. Lots of GMs and coaches will give similar lip service, but I'd bet anything they meant it. Obviously injuries shredded us but we were bad all the time, healthy or not. Tim just had the wrong idea about the team he built.

 

We were all slightly nervous about Botterill's comments about the team. He explicitly avoided talking about this team relative to the playoffs, it seemed like, was very cautious and talked about the building process needed. Called Risto a "good top 4 d-man" which is what we'd all agree with now, but probably not this summer and definitely not through the first two months of last season.

 

At the very least, our GM now showed a much more realistic and correct view of how far away this team is.

Whether it works or not we won't know for awhile, but I think Botterill was genuine when he talked about the importance of development. I just don't see him knee jerking into a bunch of call-ups. From a sober point of view, I think it's the right move. But holy hell am I sick of watching the Nolans and Moulsons of the world.

[Thorny]

I'm very interested to see if Botterill makes any in-season trades.

[GASabresIUFAN]

I'm very interested to see if Botterill makes any in-season trades.

Not til we get much closer to the deadline.

[Neo]

I’m beginning to think that watching the Rochester rebuild will tell us more than watching the Buffalo rebuild. We’ll see evidence of good times there before we’ll see it here.

 

I’m ok with this.

Edited November 12, 2017 by Neo

[Scottysabres]

Not til we get much closer to the deadline.

I don't buy this. At least not for Kane and Reinhart. There are teams who could use them now.

I move Sam for Galchyniak and a pick/future. Gal can fill a LW position as Kane's departure will leave a hole to fill, and the Canadians would most likely take the chance on Sam as they need a center.

Kane I'm looking to move for a clear #2 d man. Package him, there are a small handful of teams that have the need.

I’m beginning to think that watching the Rochester rebuild will tell us more than watching the Buffalo rebuild. We’ll see evidence of good times there before we’ll see it here.

I’m ok with this.

I am as well, to an extent. We'll still need components that can fill some holes here now.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Until we field a defense, the offense won’t excel. Hard to play offense when you can’t clear the zone. We were better tonight with Gorges and Falk. (Which is somewhat surprising). However, until we see McCabe, Risto, Bogo, Scandella, and the best of two Falk, Gorges, Baloo and Antipin, on the ice, then we won’t know what we really have.

[Thorny]

Until we field a defense, the offense won’t excel. Hard to play offense when you can’t clear the zone. We were better tonight with Gorges and Falk. (Which is somewhat surprising). However, until we see McCabe, Risto, Bogo, Scandella, and the best of two Falk, Gorges, Baloo and Antipin, on the ice, then we won’t know what we really have.

Any defence featuring Bogo cannot be a "what we really have" defence. He misses too many games to be considered part of our "normal" crew. The guys you listed, minus Bogo, is what we have, whatever that is. That's how I'd look at it anyways.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Agreed long-term, but he is supposed to be part of our top 4 this season.

[Pokey Jones]

I'm very interested to see if Botterill makes any in-season trades.

We are so bad I'm guessing his hands are tied. Other teams will simply look to pick at the bones on the carcass, they'll feel we are desperate and they will offer us nothing. 

[7+6=13]

We are so bad I'm guessing his hands are tied. Other teams will simply look to pick at the bones on the carcass, they'll feel we are desperate and they will offer us nothing. 

 

Our hands aren't tied - we just don't have trade type players outside of Kane.  That's basically the position of most teams.  

[Sabre1974]

This is no short term fix, as boohickie says rochester will be built up succesfully before here as per Botterill's plan. i know its frustrating and we have been here before but Botts has inherited the mess left behind by GMTM and it is what it is. I know it is frustrating and it annoys me intensely but we have to give him time to rebuild. Whether Housley is the coach to do this i don't know but hopefully we will get there. I have faith in botterill and hope he can do this.

[nfreeman]

I’m going to say there is NFW that Reino is traded before next summer and even next summer is only about 10% likely.

 

And I’m not much of a Reino fan.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Until we bet more depth, Reino is best left on Jack’s left wing. It was interesting to watch Jack get more shot opportunities last night as Reino passed the pick, yet still got a bunch of shots himself. I’d like to see Housley leave that line together for a weel orctwo to see if Jack and Reino can get going.

 

Agree, Reino isn’t going anywhere and is playing himself into a nice value contract for the Sabres. Still only 22. If he ends up as Jack RW long-term is that really a problem?