Jbot Do Something Already Part 2

[Pokey Jones]

It's a sad realization to come to the idea we have nothing to trade.

[Weave]

I'm not convinced that Sam has alot of value right now.  We all have seen the lineup usage stats. Sam is consistently getting the easiest on ice competition, home and away.  Coaches know they can use their 3rd and 4th liners against him.  I don't see alot of respect for Sam around the league.

[LGR4GM]

Totally agree with your post. Eventually it will have to come from Rochester. I also believe this because there is no way any decent free agent will want to sign with this current mess of an organization. Honest, why would you sign here over another club? To play with Jack? Jack hasn't shown me near enough for his pick status or salary.........yet. Leadership is currently not his forte.We will have to draft wisely and build the farm club correctly. Right now, neither has flourished.

And this has been proven time and time and time again to be complete and total fan ######. ..

 

So a guy who currently has 13 points in 14 games has not shown enough to be worth the 2nd overall pick in a draft? Yea, sure. 

It's a sad realization to come to the idea we have nothing to trade.

This just isn't true, at least not the way you present it. I could trade Kane, Risto, McCabe, ROR, Eichel, and Scandella if I wanted to. But sure, nothing to trade, wooo is us! The sky is falling! 

I'm not convinced that Sam has alot of value right now.  We all have seen the lineup usage stats. Sam is consistently getting the easiest on ice competition, home and away.  Coaches know they can use their 3rd and 4th liners against him.  I don't see alot of respect for Sam around the league.

I think Sam is pretty worthless right now. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by LGR4GM

[woods-racer]

I'm not convinced that Sam has alot of value right now.  We all have seen the lineup usage stats. Sam is consistently getting the easiest on ice competition, home and away.  Coaches know they can use their 3rd and 4th liners against him.  I don't see alot of respect for Sam around the league.

 

Every time I look at those numbers it just kills me that that whole line isn't head and shoulders above their competition.

[etiennep99]

Rheinhart is a borderline "bust" relative to expectations for the #1 forward taken in an entire draft...

 

 

 

Kyle Turris didn't exactly light up the world for several years, and has had some down years.  I'm not ready to call Rheinhart a bust quite yet.

 

But, looking at 2007 draft, I see once again Buffalo's problems.

 

In 2007.

1st: traded away.

2nd: TJ Brennen.   But they could have had PK Subban !  Not only did Subban have more points, but he rocked the playoffs in the OHL his draft year.

I think that we should have realized LONG ago that the Q doesn't provide as many quality players as the OHL and the WHL.

...

6th: Paul Byron: traded away after just 8 games in Buffalo.

 

 

Observations:

 

1. They picked the wrong players, duh!

2. They have rarely struck riches in the later rounds.

   LAK got _both_  Alec Martinez and Dwight King in the 4th round, not to mention Wayne Simmonds in the  2nd.

3. They draft too many players from the same frickin' team.  It's as if their scouts have never seen a plane, train, or automobile.

 

Ex

2007: Jean-Simon Allard & TJ. Brennan from St. John's (Q).

2008: Luke Adam from St. John's (Q).

 

 

Guhle from Prince Albert (W)

Vojtech Budik from Prince Albert (W).

 

 

Nothing against Budik, but we know that that in 2007 and 2008  better players were still available. (Derek Stepan, Hamonic, Scandella, Jimmy Hayes all drafted in the 2nd round after Luke Adam...not to mention the rest of the draft!)

[etiennep99]

More examples of players drafted from same team.

 

Ullmark, Possler, & Olofsson: MODO

,

Bryson & Florentino play(ed) at Providence.

 

Casey Fitzgerald & Chris Brown (Boston College), but they were probably also watching Ryan Fitzgeraldm Colin White (ouch!), and Alex Tuch.

 

 

Cliff Pu is a similar case as above, EVERYONE has had eyes on London (OHL).  Christian Dvorak, Mitch Marner, Matt  Tkachuk, Max Jones, Olli Juolevi, & Victor Mete

all played in London in 2015-2016.  So, finding Cliff Pu wasn't exactly turning over every rock.

 

There are probably other examples.

[Swedesessed]

REMEMBER:  JBot builds from the farm up.  The winning team isn't the one in the NHL.  The winning team is being built in the AHL and will then be moved up to the big club.  Look at all the journeymen on the Sabres on 1 year deals.  1 year for a reason.  I'm not saying next year it all gets better, but when the Sabres get there, it will come from Rochester.

 

While in some ways I agree with you: Yes JBot was able to make this happen in Pittsburgh. Only small difference is: when you have a Crosy and Malkin, it sure makes that task much easier. Sabres have nothing even close to that duo.

[etiennep99]

Harvard: Sean Malone, Kyle Criscuolo (one bright spot in Rochester this year), & Jimmy Vesey (that one got away & it was a really stupid trade in the first place because he had insisted that he was going to free agency regardless.)

 

Boston Univ.: Jack Eichel & Evan Rodriguez

Edmonton is dying for lack of scoring.   Why not tempt them with Nick Baptiste?  He played on Connor McDavid's line for part of a season in Erie(OHL). Then they can move Draisaitl back to 2C. 

 

Daisaitl was my preference in 2014 over the 2 Sams, FWIW.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Harvard: Sean Malone, Kyle Criscuolo (one bright spot in Rochester this year), & Jimmy Vesey (that one got away & it was a really stupid trade in the first place because he had insisted that he was going to free agency regardless.)

 

Boston Univ.: Jack Eichel & Evan Rodriguez

Edmonton is dying for lack of scoring.   Why not tempt them with Nick Baptiste?  He played on Connor McDavid's line for part of a season in Erie(OHL). Then they can move Draisaitl back to 2C. 

 

Daisaitl was my preference in 2014 over the 2 Sams, FWIW.

But what are you getting for Baptiste? a 3rd rd pick?  That is what you used to get him and he is closer to the NHL then a 3rd in 2018.

[etiennep99]

But what are you getting for Baptiste? a 3rd rd pick?  That is what you used to get him and he is closer to the NHL then a 3rd in 2018.

 

 

We have too many contracts (with players yet to sign such as Mittlestadt) and WAY too many RWs right now.

 

Okposo, Pominville, Reinhart(can play C?), Bailey (can play LW), Nylander(can play LW), Baptiste, Fasching, Cornel(meh), Karabacek(meh)

 

We could use more future looking draft picks.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[LGR4GM]

We have too many contracts (with players yet to sign such as Mittlestadt) and WAY too many RWs right now.

 

No we don't. We have 45 of 50 right now with roughly 5 coming off the books this year. When we have way too many RW producing on this team I will agree, until then, let them fight it out. 

[Doohickie]

While in some ways I agree with you: Yes JBot was able to make this happen in Pittsburgh. Only small difference is: when you have a Crosy and Malkin, it sure makes that task much easier. Sabres have nothing even close to that duo.

 

Close?  Like Eichel/Mittelstadt close?  We still haven't seen Mittelstadt at the pro level but you never know.

[etiennep99]

No we don't. We have 45 of 50 right now with roughly 5 coming off the books this year. When we have way too many RW producing on this team I will agree, until then, let them fight it out. 

 

Who goes without being replaced?

 

45 contracts TODAY. But, I was talking about going forward.

 

Axioms:

 

-Standard ELC are for 3 years.

-Most decent RFAs get at least 1 renewal

-Most decent Jr/College players get an initial contract

 

 

So, Let's do a little contract review:

 

 

Upcoming UFAs: Kane(LW), Pouliot(LW), Josefson(C/LW), Georges(D), Falk(D)

Redmond(D), Nolan(F), Johnson(G)

 

 

We all can agree that Georges can walk.  Until the last few games, I would've been thrilled to part with Pouliot.  But

we do need LWs and depth D.  Redmond strikes me as a good depth player.

 

All of these (save) Georges would need to be replaced next year. We do need LWs. Who's going to replace Nolan?  We still

need 2 goalies.

 

Upcoming RFAs:

C.J. Smith(LW) looking good in Roch.

Malone © not enough info to judge

 

 

RFAs we most likely will want to renew:

 

Fasching(RW), Baptiste(RW), Bailey(RW/LW)

 

 

So, I can only say for sure that 1 UFA/RFA (Georges) won't be back.

 

That leaves us with 44 contracts.

 

Players to sign:

 

Mittelstadt, Asplund, Borgen, Fitzgerald, Hagel, Budik, Glotov, Bryson(?)

Weissbach (he was an over-ager but showing promise), Brown(?), Olofsson(?), Willman (?)

 

I hope that we sign at least 8 of these guys *next* year.

 

Davidsson & Kuukonen will sign in 2019.

 

We still have next year's very likely HIGH 1st round draft pick.

 

That's 11 players in the next year or two.

 

Then we have Murray(nah), Nyberg(maybe) at college still.

Laaksonen is a real wild card/project.

 

Yes, we have a lot of contracts.

 

We will need to make room for these players.

 

[LGR4GM]

You think we will have 45 players already signed before we have to sign the guy listed going into next year? No.  Some of those guys you list are 2 years away. Some will make the team. There are 7 pending UFA's on Buffalo. I would guess maybe 3 come back. There's 1 uFA in Rochester.  Then the following year (2019) there are another 6 UFA's and looking at that list maybe 1 or 2 will be back. So you need 11 players contracts in the next 2 years.... I think that number is high but we will go with it. I opened 4 spots after this year, I open another 4 spots after next year, that is 10 spots. Plus the 5 we already have. That is 15 spots for your 11 players.  Those 11 by the way, I think will actually be closer to 9. 

 

I will use your list:

Mittelstadt, Asplund, Fitzgerald: Good chance all of them are signed (3 contracts)

 

Hagel, He may get signed but I could see them letting that contract slide a year and leaving him in juniors. Budik, same thing (lets say 2 contacts)

 

Glotov, he will get a deal and will have to make either rochester or buffalo or he will go back to juniors (not giving you this one yet)

 

Bryson(?), will definitley return to college for his Junior season. (no contract)

 

Borgen, Probably getting signed for Rochester (1 contract)

Weissbach (he was an over-ager but showing promise), (he's in college at least another year after this.

 

Brown(?), idk if they will sign him at all but they could

 

Olofsson(?), he's getting signed (1 contract)

 

Willman (?), I don't think there is much interest here. 

 

So with all the stars aligning and the clouds parting, that is 7 contracts for next year. Seems pretty easy to fit everyone to me. Especially when I consider that JBot hasn't even hit the trade deadline or the draft yet.  This concern over contracts is misplaced. 

[Pokey Jones]

And this has been proven time and time and time again to be complete and total fan ######. ..

 

So a guy who currently has 13 points in 14 games has not shown enough to be worth the 2nd overall pick in a draft? Yea, sure. 

This just isn't true, at least not the way you present it. I could trade Kane, Risto, McCabe, ROR, Eichel, and Scandella if I wanted to. But sure, nothing to trade, wooo is us! The sky is falling! 

I think Sam is pretty worthless right now. 

I was simply agreeing with 

GASabresIUFAN.

The only guys you could trade are the ones you don't want to, the short list you have here (and I'm not sure I'd include McCabe any more). the rest, either scrubs or contracts too fat to make them marketable. Sure you could trade a few, Zemgus and such but you wont' get much back. 

[Thorny]

I was simply agreeing with 

 

GASabresIUFAN.

The only guys you could trade are the ones you don't want to, the short list you have here (and I'm not sure I'd include McCabe any more). the rest, either scrubs or contracts too fat to make them marketable. Sure you could trade a few, Zemgus and such but you wont' get much back.

 

I think the Sabres could move O'Reilly. He's a very good player and though he is being paid a lot, I think there'd be takers. And I think we'd get a lot back.

 

Not advocating the trade, but I'd be open to it depending on how far back the timeline for playoff contention is being pushed.

[Pokey Jones]

You might be right about ROR, but I think ti will be difficult with his contract. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

But how does trading ROR move the team forward at this point?  Who do we have in the pipeline to take on his role?  At least with a trade of Kane or Sam, we have potential candidates in the organization like Nylander, Mittetstadt or even Bailey or Baptiste who could assume their role on the team.  What center do we have that is ready for the NHL, is a consistent offensive threat, wins faceoffs and plays both special teams? 

Edited November 7, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[Thorny]

But how does trading ROR move the team forward at this point? Who do we have in the pipeline to take on his role? At least with a trade of Kane or Sam, we have potential candidates in the organization like Nylander, Mittetstadt or even Bailey or Baptiste who could assume their role on the team. What center do we have that is ready for the NHL, is a consistent offensive threat, wins faceoffs and plays both special teams?

 

None. And he's in his prime right now. That's why I am beyond frustrated with the apparent likelihood that we are years from even playoff contention. ROR is valuable for those things right now and his talents are being wasted on a bottom-feeder roster.

 

If you think ROR is 30 by the time we are making the playoffs, maybe you deal him now for pieces that won't be past their best before date at that time. He's also not a vet that could easily be slid down the lineup should younger players outplay him at that time. He's being paid like a first line centre for the entirety of his deal. That's potentially problematic.

 

ROR was a win-now player acquired for a team that couldn't win then, and isn't even winning now.

 

I don't want to trade ROR, I'd much rather just start winning games. But increasingly that's looking like a fool's hope.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Thorny

[Wyldnwoody44]

I don't think Jbot is going to do much anytime soon, you think that the last GM was let go (probably) for rash decisions and ZFG moves, then the new regime may not want to come in and do just that. Look where it left us.

 

Maybe the rebuild needs to start now, again, under the new tide.... Not a tank, but a whole rebuild which includes Ra Cha Cha. I know I don't wanna hear that, and many are too frustrated with what has transpired, but I don't see any quick fix for this team in the near future.

 

So for now, let's maximize what we can at the deadline if we're outta it (it certainly seems so) and take the baby steps that we should have been taking over the last 2-3 years.

 

Hold on tight guys and gals, this ride isn't getting any easier

[Thorny]

I don't think Jbot is going to do much anytime soon, you think that the last GM was let go (probably) for rash decisions and ZFG moves, then the new regime may not want to come in and do just that. Look where it left us.

Maybe the rebuild needs to start now, again, under the new tide.... Not a tank, but a whole rebuild which includes Ra Cha Cha. I know I don't wanna hear that, and many are too frustrated with what has transpired, but I don't see any quick fix for this team in the near future.

So for now, let's maximize what we can at the deadline if we're outta it (it certainly seems so) and take the baby steps that we should have been taking over the last 2-3 years.

Hold on tight guys and gals, this ride isn't getting any easier

I think management is in an exceptionally tricky place. Rebuilding and pushing the timeline for supposed contention back far enough could leave us in no man's land with several contracts. Okposo comes to mind, and I've already mentioned ROR. It'll depend on what their internal timeline is, but an argument can be made that they should be trying to rid themselves of those big contracts if they are settling in for a nice long rebuild where patience from those involved is aplenty.

 

Urgh.

[Pokey Jones]

But how does trading ROR move the team forward at this point?  Who do we have in the pipeline to take on his role?  At least with a trade of Kane or Sam, we have potential candidates in the organization like Nylander, Mittetstadt or even Bailey or Baptiste who could assume their role on the team.  What center do we have that is ready for the NHL, is a consistent offensive threat, wins faceoffs and plays both special teams? 

It doesn't. It'd be a step backwards to try to make a leap forwards. Try to construct an actual pipeline. I mean if the chemistry in this room isn't working - and it clearly isn't - and this group just doesn't have it, what choice do you really have but to try to rebuild the whole thing? Nobody likes the idea of a tank, but what is the alternative? Who can you trade to make this core better? draft picks? I think not. underachievers? Nobody will give us anything for them.  Reinhart is the only guy who is underachieving and MIGHT get you something but I doubt it would be much. Maybe Lehner or McCabe but again, they wont' get you a lot in return. 

[Neo]

I envision JBot daydreaming about buildings and TM daydreaming about furniture. In time versus next month. Grand master tournaments versus speed chess tournaments. You can win at either. The approaches are different.

 

If I had a dinner with Mr. Pegula, I’d ask him if he understands what I mean and if his approach to two franchises reflects a shift. We jettisoned splashy Rex and GMTM for steady Beane, McDermott, JBot and Housley.

 

Questions: am I seeing something or imagining something? If I’m seeing it, was it deliberate or coincidence?

 

I’d love a Stanley Cup this year. I’ll be encouraged by DeLuca .500 next year.

 

What would PA say about maturation or learning curves? Sincere.

[Pokey Jones]

I think it might signal a shift. There were experienced guys out there with long resumes and they chose younger guys in tune with the new tone and style in the league. I think that was the right decision. We weren't the first to take that route so maybe he has just learned from his mistakes. 

[LGR4GM]

I think it might signal a shift. There were experienced guys out there with long resumes and they chose younger guys in tune with the new tone and style in the league. I think that was the right decision. We weren't the first to take that route so maybe he has just learned from his mistakes. 

agreed