off topic What I do to reduce my environmental footprint...

[Sabres Fan in NS]

Hey guys, please, don't encourage him (?).

 

This guy (?) is a master - bater and several have taken it.

[K-9]

How can any landfill be a good thing?

 

There is evidence that NOAA and NASA cooked the books to further the global warming fraud. Ice core analysis shows there was just as much green house gas when the dinosaurs roamed the earth. I'm all for clean energy but the tech has to be there.

There are 197 international scientific organizations who have reached the same conclusions independently. Are they all cooking their books, too? 

 

Meanwhile, the science cited by deniers is funded by the very industry that stands to lose the most. It's uncanny. 

 

Stands to reason there was a high level of green house gas in pre-historic times given the volcanic activity at the time. And that was WITH high vegetation growth. But we can't cite volcanic activity today and we only have a fraction of the vegetation to mitigate co2 levels. 

 

My favorite example of deniers is Florida, where the governor has made it official policy that you can't even mention the terms "global warming" or "climate change" and yet they are in the midst of spending billions to mitigate an expected rise in sea levels. Why is that, I wonder?

[That Aud Smell]

There are 197 international scientific organizations who have reached the same conclusions independently. Are they all cooking their books, too? 

 

Meanwhile, the science cited by deniers is funded by the very industry that stands to lose the most. It's uncanny. 

 

As far as I know, M.I.T. Professor (Emeritus) Richard Lindzen isn't underwritten by any titans of the fossil fuel industries. He's an independent minded contrarian who is in a distinct minority of his scientific community. But his views are far (far) more learned than mine are.

 

I am a skeptic by nature. And I think group-think is a very real phenomenon amongst scientists. Take for one example: John Yudkin was a researcher who wrote a book in the early 70s which posited that refined white sugar -- not a fatty diet -- was at the root of the western world's expanding waistlines and growing problem with obesity and type 2 diabetes. The overwhelming majority of his contemporaries essentially shouted him down, and out of the scientific conversation. And thus began public health campaigns aimed at eliminating fats from our diets. Lo and behold, some 40+ years later, Yudkin is being hailed as a visionary ahead of his time, and the whole sugar-fat-obesity paradigm is being re-thought.

 

Anyhoo. In the meantime, I think the safer wager is to bet on those who think our actions affect the climate.

[darksabre]

There are 197 international scientific organizations who have reached the same conclusions independently. Are they all cooking their books, too? 

 

Meanwhile, the science cited by deniers is funded by the very industry that stands to lose the most. It's uncanny. 

 

Stands to reason there was a high level of green house gas in pre-historic times given the volcanic activity at the time. And that was WITH high vegetation growth. But we can't cite volcanic activity today and we only have a fraction of the vegetation to mitigate co2 levels. 

 

My favorite example of deniers is Florida, where the governor has made it official policy that you can't even mention the terms "global warming" or "climate change" and yet they are in the midst of spending billions to mitigate an expected rise in sea levels. Why is that, I wonder?

 

I don't understand why the average person has any reason to deny climate change. What do any of us have to gain by denying it? Denying climate change doesn't drastically improve the economy, or increase our quality of life, or make us happier. What does denying climate change even do for anyone at the individual level? 

[JJFIVEOH]

And of course I forgot to bring it.  So one more day of plastic.

 

 

I'll play.  Tell you what:  What if it has nothing to do with global warming?  How can landfills full of plastic possibly be a good thing?

 

THIS is the big problem. It's a damn shame people can't put all this global warming effort and focus it on cleaning up the planet. 

[darksabre]

THIS is the big problem. It's a damn shame people can't put all this global warming effort and focus it on cleaning up the planet. 

Last I checked, the atmosphere is considered part of "the planet". 

[K-9]

As far as I know, M.I.T. Professor (Emeritus) Richard Lindzen isn't underwritten by any titans of the fossil fuel industries. He's an independent minded contrarian who is in a distinct minority of his scientific community. But his views are far (far) more learned than mine are.

 

I am a skeptic by nature. And I think group-think is a very real phenomenon amongst scientists. Take for one example: John Yudkin was a researcher who wrote a book in the early 70s which posited that refined white sugar -- not a fatty diet -- was at the root of the western world's expanding waistlines and growing problem with obesity and type 2 diabetes. The overwhelming majority of his contemporaries essentially shouted him down, and out of the scientific conversation. And thus began public health campaigns aimed at eliminating fats from our diets. Lo and behold, some 40+ years later, Yudkin is being hailed as a visionary ahead of his time, and the whole sugar-fat-obesity paradigm is being re-thought.

 

Anyhoo. In the meantime, I think the safer wager is to bet on those who think our actions affect the climate

One of the 3% of climate-scientists worldwide who aren't on board. 

 

A senior fellow at the CATO Institute. 

 

Where do they get their funding again? 

 

No doubt early research is often decried and then accepted later on. When it comes to climate study worldwide, however, the paradigm shift has already occurred. 

[That Aud Smell]

I don't understand why the average person has any reason to deny climate change. What do any of us have to gain by denying it? Denying climate change doesn't drastically improve the economy, or increase our quality of life, or make us happier. What does denying climate change even do for anyone at the individual level? 

 

I'll take a hack at it: Because they believe that public policy should not be dictated by uncertain or unsettled science. Because they believe that existing infrastructure and industry (and jobs) should not be sacrificed on the altar of uncertain righteousness. Because they believe that the left's agenda of moving toward alternative energies is as much about the Dems tilting the field in favour of their capitalist cronies, as opposed to the other party's capitalist cronies. Because they see the mandate for a shift in energy consumption as the public sector behaving as an investment bank for the entities that seek to fill the void that the public sector will create through its policy enactments.

 

Those kinds of things.

One of the 3% of climate-scientists worldwide who aren't on board. 

 

A senior fellow at the CATO Institute. 

 

Where do they get their funding again? 

 

No doubt early research is often decried and then accepted later on. When it comes to climate study worldwide, however, the paradigm shift has already occurred. 

 

*Sigh*

 

Was unaware.

 

See why I stay out of the politics thread?

 

So - what? Lindzen is a tool of the wack-a-doo Kochs? My sense is that he developed his contrarian views while at M.I.T., not with Cato.

 

But, whatever.

 

Like I said, I'm a skeptic. The scientific community appears to be in unanimous agreement that humanity's actions are affecting the planet's climate. That's fine. I'm on board with doing what we can do mitigate that, assuming we can. I just remain ... skeptical that our scientists actually know all that they think they know in this field. 

[K-9]

I'll take a hack at it: Because they believe that public policy should not be dictated by uncertain or unsettled science. Because they believe that existing infrastructure and industry (and jobs) should not be sacrificed on the altar of uncertain righteousness. Because they believe that the left's agenda of moving toward alternative energies is as much about the Dems tilting the field in favour of their capitalist cronies, as opposed to the other party's capitalist cronies. Because they see the mandate for a shift in energy consumption as the public sector behaving as an investment bank for the entities that seek to fill the void that the public sector will create through its policy enactments.

 

Those kinds of things.

 

*Sigh*

 

Was unaware.

 

See why I stay out of the politics thread?

 

So - what? Lindzen is a tool of the wack-a-doo Kochs? My sense is that he developed his contrarian views while at M.I.T., not with Cato.

 

But, whatever.

 

Like I said, I'm a skeptic. The scientific community appears to be in unanimous agreement that humanity's actions are affecting the planet's climate. That's fine. I'm on board with doing what we can do mitigate that, assuming we can. I just remain ... skeptical that our scientists actually know all that they think they know in this field. 

I don't know if he's a tool or not, but I'm suspicious by nature and when you click on the links of those sights that post the 3% studies, etc, it's usually a short walk to some big player in the energy industry. It's uncanny. 

[JJFIVEOH]

Last I checked, the atmosphere is considered part of "the planet".

You could have just asked for clarification. So let's try this again.

 

It's a shame we can't put in the effort to eliminate pollution, cleaning up some of these toxic cesspools of 3rd world nations, reducing our dependency on plastics.......... Instead of putting so much effort into addressing global warming that may not as man made as we might think, spending billions of dollars (if not trillionns globalwide) trying to squeeze one more mile per gallon out of vehicles.

 

As long as we keep reproducing at an unsustainable rate, as long as we keep overfishing our seas, as long as we keep using plastic like it's paper..... Global warming will be the least of our concerns in the near future.

 

Is that better?

[That Aud Smell]

I don't know if he's a tool or not, but I'm suspicious by nature and when you click on the links of those sights that post the 3% studies, etc, it's usually a short walk to some big player in the energy industry. It's uncanny. 

 

Right. But Lindzen developed his theories while at M.I.T., yes? 

 

Anyway. My point (I think) is that science is better off, not worse off, when minority, dissident, contrarian voices are heard in an open and respectful way -- not dismissed out of hand as an embarrassment (as some at M.I.T. characterize Lindzen), a purchased opinion, etc.

[K-9]

Right. But Lindzen developed his theories while at M.I.T., yes? 

 

Anyway. My point (I think) is that science is better off, not worse off, when minority, dissident, contrarian voices are heard in an open and respectful way -- not dismissed out of hand as an embarrassment (as some at M.I.T. characterize Lindzen), a purchased opinion, etc.

I don't think LIndzen's research has been dismissed out of hand by the scientific community; it has legitimate holes that have been scrutinized by scientists just as qualified around the world. And I understand the urge many of us have to glamorize the underdog and the less accepted view in the face of an overwhelming majority. 

 

I get the impression Lindzen has found a nice and hugely rewarding niche in an audience that wants to hear a certain thing. 

[darksabre]

You could have just asked for clarification. So let's try this again.

 

It's a shame we can't put in the effort to eliminate pollution, cleaning up some of these toxic cesspools of 3rd world nations, reducing our dependency on plastics.......... Instead of putting so much effort into addressing global warming that may not as man made as we might think, spending billions of dollars (if not trillionns globalwide) trying to squeeze one more mile per gallon out of vehicles.

 

As long as we keep reproducing at an unsustainable rate, as long as we keep overfishing our seas, as long as we keep using plastic like it's paper..... Global warming will be the least of our concerns in the near future.

 

Is that better?

You have a nasty habit of trying to prioritize things that don't necessarily need to be prioritized. We spend tons of money on the study of waste reduction, on the science of landfills, on reuse of brownfields, and we've been trying to get people to use less garbage for years. And we're going to keep trying. That doesn't mean global warming isn't something we can focus resources into at the same time. Consider it an all encompassing policy that doesn't give a ###### what you think is a priority. 

I'll take a hack at it: Because they believe that public policy should not be dictated by uncertain or unsettled science. Because they believe that existing infrastructure and industry (and jobs) should not be sacrificed on the altar of uncertain righteousness. Because they believe that the left's agenda of moving toward alternative energies is as much about the Dems tilting the field in favour of their capitalist cronies, as opposed to the other party's capitalist cronies. Because they see the mandate for a shift in energy consumption as the public sector behaving as an investment bank for the entities that seek to fill the void that the public sector will create through its policy enactments.

 

Those kinds of things.

These are the same people that should also be opposed to wasteful spending like space research, military R&D, and all of the other economic and scientific benefits that come with those areas. Did we go to the moon because we had a good reason? No. We went there because we as a society decided that was something we should do just to see if it could be done, tangible benefits be damned. And you know what? That "pointless" endeavor spawned a ton of the technology we use today. 

 

Scientific innovation is something that we should be doing at all costs, and it shouldn't matter what "sector" is pushing it. Let's stop being wimps as a nation and do some f*cking science. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by d4rksabre

[JJFIVEOH]

You have a nasty habit of trying to prioritize things that don't necessarily need to be prioritized. We spend tons of money on the study of waste reduction, on the science of landfills, on reuse of brownfields, and we've been trying to get people to use less garbage for years. And we're going to keep trying. That doesn't mean global warming isn't something we can focus resources into at the same time. Consider it an all encompassing policy that doesn't give a ###### what you think is a priority.

 

I've tried to be reasonable with you, I've tried to be civilized with you, I've even tried to overlook every time you never seem to discuss anything with me unless you have the opportunity to denigrate my opinion in one snarky way or another. I think I'm through trying.

[qwksndmonster]

I've tried to be reasonable with you, I've tried to be civilized with you, I've even tried to overlook every time you never seem to discuss anything with me unless you have the opportunity to denigrate my opinion in one snarky way or another. I think I'm through trying.

Uh oh! Boom! JJ dropped the bomb! He's no longer trying in his and d4rk's relationship! Boom!

[darksabre]

I've tried to be reasonable with you, I've tried to be civilized with you, I've even tried to overlook every time you never seem to discuss anything with me unless you have the opportunity to denigrate my opinion in one snarky way or another. I think I'm through trying.

I've had you on block for months. But I have to call it like I see it. You don't have an argument other than "well I don't think it's important". All of your opinions come back to that same theme. Your schtick is tired. We get it. You set the priorities.

[JJFIVEOH]

I've had you on block for months. But I have to call it like I see it. You don't have an argument other than "well I don't think it's important". All of your opinions come back to that same theme. Your schtick is tired. We get it. You set the priorities.

Man, you can't even stand by your convictions by ignoring me. You're quite an open-minded individual.

 

All I said was I think pollution and sustainability are more important than global warming, there is some overlap, but not entirely. You decide to go on some grade school rant complete trashing my opinion.

 

You have some serious issues, you need to grow up.

[TrueBlueGED]

Uh oh! Boom! JJ dropped the bomb! He's no longer trying in his and d4rk's relationship! Boom!

 

 

I've had you on block for months. But I have to call it like I see it. You don't have an argument other than "well I don't think it's important". All of your opinions come back to that same theme. Your schtick is tired. We get it. You set the priorities.

 

 

Man, you can't even stand by your convictions by ignoring me. You're quite an open-minded individual.

 

All I said was I think pollution and sustainability are more important than global warming, there is some overlap, but not entirely. You decide to go on some grade school rant complete trashing my opinion.

 

You have some serious issues, you need to grow up.

 

Makeup sex in 3...2....1....

[darksabre]

Man, you can't even stand by your convictions by ignoring me. You're quite an open-minded individual.

 

All I said was I think pollution and sustainability are more important than global warming, there is some overlap, but not entirely. You decide to go on some grade school rant complete trashing my opinion.

 

You have some serious issues, you need to grow up.

You literally said people should take "all this global warming effort" and apply it elsewhere. That doesn't look like overlap to me. It looks like you, as usual, attempting to diminish the things other people consider important in favor of your self-centered rankings. This is why every OT discussion people have with you here results in a tire fire. It's because it's very obvious you don't care what other people think, or what their priorities are, or what they value. It's all about you. You can't have meaningful conversations with people if your predetermined end is always "well this is more important anyway."

 

Never change JJ.

[JJFIVEOH]

You literally said people should take "all this global warming effort" and apply it elsewhere. That doesn't look like overlap to me. It looks like you, as usual, attempting to diminish the things other people consider important in favor of your self-centered rankings. This is why every OT discussion people have with you here results in a tire fire. It's because it's very obvious you don't care what other people think, or what their priorities are, or what they value. It's all about you. You can't have meaningful conversations with people if your predetermined end is always "well this is more important anyway."

 

Never change JJ.

 

You're right, focusing on pollution and sustainability is an asinine idea. How can I possibly support such nonsense.

 

You've already said you put me on ignore. Give me one good reason why I should waste my time discussing with you knowing at any moment you'll have a tantrum and put your hands back over your ears. 

 

You have a history of running your mouth at people you disagree with. If you want to have a civilized discussion, grow up and accept the fact that your opinion isn't the only one. 

 

Now put me back on ignore and go hide in your bubble. 

[josie]

Makeup sex in 3...2....1....

:cry:

[SwampD]

:cry:

Give your boy some attention. He's seems a little tense. There was really no reason to go after JJ that much when they are actually both on the same side of the issue.

[Weave]

Give your boy some attention. He's seems a little tense. There was really no reason to go after JJ that much when they are actually both on the same side of the issue.

Hangry. That makes so much sense.

[josie]

Give your boy some attention. He's seems a little tense. There was really no reason to go after JJ that much when they are actually both on the same side of the issue.

Ah, so it's my fault? Forgot that was my job. 

 

haha whatever, you boys get back to your arguing. I'm not taking sides. Since d4rk lives in a different city, he can give himself some attention :P

[K-9]

Yeah, d4rk has hand. 

 

 

 

And he's gonna need it.